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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Created an account to ask for your help and I am about to embark on a 5e journey! I read the guide and is very thorough, but I didn't see anything in regards to a Battle Cleric against the Undead.

    I am wanting to make a Variant Human Str/Wis Cleric who is meant for battle, and feared by the Undead (kind of like a Cleric of Kelemvor). Please helps!

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Yorrin's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Seleh View Post
    Created an account to ask for your help and I am about to embark on a 5e journey! I read the guide and is very thorough, but I didn't see anything in regards to a Battle Cleric against the Undead.

    I am wanting to make a Variant Human Str/Wis Cleric who is meant for battle, and feared by the Undead (kind of like a Cleric of Kelemvor). Please helps!
    Ah, the classic anti-undead Cleric. Fortunately for you there are a lot of good builds for that type of character. Really your spell selection will be more important than most of the rest of your build.

    For a Str/Wis Human you're looking at probably Life or War Domains. Heavy Armor + Shield + 1h weapon is probably advantageous, though for War a good Maul or Greatsword works as well.

    In terms of spells, besides the general advise in the spell section of the thread there are a few flavorful choices. Detect Evil and Good and Protection from Evil and Good, while a lackluster spells overall, fit your concept and make you feel like a specialist. Lesser Restoration, and Remove Curse or Greater Restoration if you're high enough level, can counteract many of the worst things undead can bring to the table. If you're particularly high level Holy Aura is a must-prepare for this type of character. All of that being said, Clerics have a great spell list in general with healing, blasting, and support that makes them quite effective against the undead- and everything else they encounter.

    Honestly, after taking all of the above into consideration, this is more about roleplaying than your character build overall. As I've said already- Clerics are a great class in general, so if you're roleplaying as "the guy who vocally hates undead" and playing a generally competent Cleric then you'll be remembered as the anti-undead Cleric.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Thank you for the reply. I have definitely tailored my Cleric around your suggestions and think I have come up with a fairly solid Battle Cleric. Joining a group at level 2, so I will use your recommendations for the future.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I was under the impression Dual Wielder lets you use longswords (or any one-handed weapons) for your dual-wield. Is this wrong?
    No it isn't. Dual wielder isn't a trap. With a fighting style you get one of the highest melee damage in the game and an AC point more. If you get more attacks you out-damage most builds.

    Without an extra attack you do two damage more and you have one AC more.
    With one extra attack, you do three damage more and you still have the AC.

    And remember two weapon fighting is the best in-combat build if you don't have many attacks (one or two) like the cleric.
    Have an awesome day!

    A (small) part of my Homebrew! And a guide!

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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by EnderDwarf View Post
    No it isn't. Dual wielder isn't a trap. With a fighting style you get one of the highest melee damage in the game and an AC point more. If you get more attacks you out-damage most builds.

    Without an extra attack you do two damage more and you have one AC more.
    With one extra attack, you do three damage more and you still have the AC.

    And remember two weapon fighting is the best in-combat build if you don't have many attacks (one or two) like the cleric.
    Cleric has Spiritual Weapon. They don't need dual wielding.

    Where in the world are you getting that dual wielding is the best melee damage? It's best from levels 1-4, on-par for levels 5-10, and the worst for levels 11-20.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Silly question for clarification, w/ 5e clerics: I just dont know all the spells of my appropriate level? I have a Wis of 18 (+4) and am level 3. The class chart says I have 4 level 1 and 2 level 2 spell slots. Do I know all the cleric spells, or do i have to choose from the list, then prep those?

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Seleh View Post
    Silly question for clarification, w/ 5e clerics: I just dont know all the spells of my appropriate level? I have a Wis of 18 (+4) and am level 3. The class chart says I have 4 level 1 and 2 level 2 spell slots. Do I know all the cleric spells, or do i have to choose from the list, then prep those?
    You know all the spells on your list. You prepare level + WIS mod = 7 spells. You also have the spells on your Domain list prepared automatically.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    You know all the spells on your list. You prepare level + WIS mod = 7 spells. You also have the spells on your Domain list prepared automatically.
    This is correct. For example let's look at you as a third level Cleric with a Wis of 18. You know every spell on the Cleric list, but each morning you pick 7 spells (3 from level & 4 from wis-mod). Let's say you pick:

    1. Cure Wounds
    2. Bless
    3. Healing Word
    4. Guiding Bolt
    5. Spiritual Weapon
    6. Prayer of Healing
    7. Silence

    In addition you add your domain spells to the list for free. At this point you consult your class chart and you see that you have 4 first level spells per day and 2 second level slots. Each of the spells above can be cast using those slots. So in a day where you're needing to deal a lot of damage you might cast 3 guiding bolts, 1 healing word, 1 Spiritual Weapon, and 1 Guiding Bolt in a second level slot. On the other hand if that same day instead requires more healing focus you could cast 3 Cure Wounds, 1 Bless, and 2 Prayer of Healing. And, once again, you an change your prepared spell list each day.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Thank you so much for the breakdown, this definitely helps me understand and plan accordingly :)

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    You're welcome? I wasn't aware anyone was discounting Light Domain. It's a solid blaster-caster with all the joys of clerical healing and buffing. Medium armor + shield give it great base AC as opposed to a sorcerer warlock or wizard, too. Good domain for a well rounded combat caster.
    In September I will play a 1st level cleric with the light domain for an AL Underdark campaign and I was wondering what you thought about race choice between Hill Dwarf, Wood Elf and Half-Elf. Under normal circumstances I would have used the variant human (as you suggested) but for an Underdark campaign I don't want to play a race without darkvision.
    Last edited by Ogre Mage; 2015-08-03 at 01:08 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    ZenBear's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogre Mage View Post
    In September I will play a 1st level cleric with the light domain for an AL Underdark campaign and I was wondering what you thought about race choice between Hill Dwarf, Wood Elf and Half-Elf. Under normal circumstances I would have used the variant human (as you suggested) but for an Underdark campaign I don't want to play a race without darkvision.
    IMO Hill Dwarf is best. Point Buy 15 WIS 14 CON/DEX 8 INT or CHA. Lots of HP, good CON save and Poison resistance (situational but nice).

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Yorrin's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogre Mage View Post
    In September I will play a 1st level cleric with the light domain for an AL Underdark campaign and I was wondering what you thought about race choice between Hill Dwarf, Wood Elf and Half-Elf. Under normal circumstances I would have used the variant human (as you suggested) but for an Underdark campaign I don't want to play a race without darkvision.
    Hill Dwarf increases your survivability a fair amount and allows you to be the focused caster that Light Domain wants you to be. Wood Elf is runner up here since it opens up a bow build, but honestly Light Domain is the wrong Domain for that build. Half Elf would be your skill-monkey and/or party face option, but doesn't bring much to the table for Clerics.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Charisma saves are black, but they are with inteligence the least common, I think it's purple or red and not black.
    Have an awesome day!

    A (small) part of my Homebrew! And a guide!

    A subclass for me by Ninja_Prawn.

    I am a LG Crusader/cleric

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    Hill Dwarf Nature Cleric 20
    Wis 16, Con 16, Dex 13, Str 10, Cha 10, Int 10
    Shillelagh makes you a pure Wis melee build, and you can add a Shield to your Medium Armor and Dwarven Toughness to tank pretty effectively. Maximizing Wis takes top priority, and then War Caster or more points in Con (or even some of the tankier feats like Sentinel, which doesn't mesh well with War Caster).
    Sorry for being late to the game here, but I feel like I'm missing something obvious with this build. I'm sure it's something with me just being dense. You use medium armor with this build, but I am not sure why you are not using heavy armor. Dwarves have no speed reduction for heavy armor and the Nature Domain grants a proficiency in heavy armor (unless I am misreading things). Is there a reason you are using medium armor? I read through the comments, but I didn't see anything about this unless I missed that as well. Thanks!
    Last edited by tclayton; 2015-09-21 at 04:13 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by tclayton View Post
    Sorry for being late to the game here, but I feel like I'm missing something obvious with this build. I'm sure it's something with me just being dense. You use medium armor with this build, but I am not sure why you are not using heavy armor. Dwarves have no speed reduction for heavy armor and the Nature Domain grants a proficiency in heavy armor (unless I am misreading things). Is there a reason you are using medium armor? I read through the comments, but I didn't see anything about this unless I missed that as well. Thanks!
    In part it was me being mentally lazy and forgetting that Dwarves ignored armor penalties. In part it was just using an example that could easily have it's race changed without changing the build too much. But yes, technically you could do Heavy Armor in this build, but until you get access to Full Plate medium will probably be comparable or better.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    So another nice thing to note about splashing paladin is that you get a 9th level slot (not spells mind you) if you take it for the extra attack. I'm doing it on my light cleric (he is seriously filling every conceivable party role and owning at it) and let me tell you 20d6 damage on my scorching ray while also being able to bash face with a sword really well sounds good to me (probably will end up being 22d6 at end game because the book of exalted deeds has my name on it, and before you ask everyone is going to get something op as all get out)
    recap

  17. - Top - End - #107
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    In part it was me being mentally lazy and forgetting that Dwarves ignored armor penalties. In part it was just using an example that could easily have it's race changed without changing the build too much. But yes, technically you could do Heavy Armor in this build, but until you get access to Full Plate medium will probably be comparable or better.
    OK. Thanks. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing something. It wasn't a critique. I appreciate it and the work you did on this guide.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Yorrin's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by recapdrake View Post
    So another nice thing to note about splashing paladin is that you get a 9th level slot (not spells mind you) if you take it for the extra attack. I'm doing it on my light cleric (he is seriously filling every conceivable party role and owning at it) and let me tell you 20d6 damage on my scorching ray while also being able to bash face with a sword really well sounds good to me (probably will end up being 22d6 at end game because the book of exalted deeds has my name on it, and before you ask everyone is going to get something op as all get out)
    Thanks for sharing your experience with Cleric! That sounds like a fun high-level build.

    Quote Originally Posted by tclayton View Post
    OK. Thanks. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing something. It wasn't a critique. I appreciate it and the work you did on this guide.
    No offense taken. Thanks for reading/commenting.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by DireSickFish View Post
    What do you think about cleric spells at levels 6+? In my group a lot of people are underwhelmed by the options they get compared to other full caster classes. They seem to lack the game changing aspect that a lot of other spells at this level have. One guy went so far as to start multiclassing wizard at lvl11 because he didn't want to stagnate.
    Level 7 is strong out of combat -- Plane Shift, Regenerate, Resurrect, Conjure Celestial (which I take to mean Couatl, who has vast out of combat utility). Planar Binding the Couatl is even better, but we've had various RAW/RAI threads about that challenge.

    The Level 8/9 spells, however, seem a lot less versatile than their arcane counterparts, or Shapechange. I'd agree that Level 6 is meh as well.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    I wanted to share a build that I've played a couple times that is a bit weird.

    Human Variant (or goliath) Life Cleric + Tavern brawler (+rogue for expertise). Essentially you hit people with weird religious stuff and then grapple them. You then run away from the group*. With prof, decent str, and expertise the creature isn't getting away. Plus you can heal yourself so you essentially take a creature out of the fight against your allies. Mostly works at lower levels but with Mage slayer I've seen some positive results.

    I'll post a build at some point. It may or may not have barbarian levels too.

    Edit:* while still grappling enemy.
    Last edited by TopCheese; 2015-09-22 at 01:23 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    I'm not sure how being a cleric is helping with your grapple build. Also the grapple feat's pinning ability is worse than simply grappling and shoving them prone. Someone has a grapple guide out there that breaks it down. If you're dipping rogue and barbarain that's a rather hefty loss of spell slots.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by DireSickFish View Post
    I'm not sure how being a cleric is helping with your grapple build. Also the grapple feat's pinning ability is worse than simply grappling and shoving them prone. Someone has a grapple guide out there that breaks it down. If you're dipping rogue and barbarain that's a rather hefty loss of spell slots.
    They can wail on me all they like, I can heal myself until the cows come home.

    Also freedom of movement allows me to ignore difficult terrain and be able to escape the grapple IF I end up grappling something I shouldn't (and it grapples me back). Plus cleric gives me heavy armor.

    Sacred Flame is also nice, pinning gives disadvantage to dex saves while prone does not. I may be strength based but that doesn't mean I'll have a great weapon attack. Plus others can target the creature with ranged attacks and not take disadvantage.

    It isn't so much +omg great grapple build+ so much as +good grapple build that is FUN+

    :)

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Just wanting your opinion, I'm rolling a level 1 cleric to replace my unfortunately deceased fighter. The rest of the party is level 2 now and the entire adventure seems likely to take place in the underdark. That said, I was looking towards a tempest cleric, but my party (not the dm) is trying to talk me into the life or war domain on the basis that weather spells, especially call lightning, will be next to useless in the underdark. Do you think it might be a gamble to use tempest in this setting?

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by SisypheanArchon View Post
    Just wanting your opinion, I'm rolling a level 1 cleric to replace my unfortunately deceased fighter. The rest of the party is level 2 now and the entire adventure seems likely to take place in the underdark. That said, I was looking towards a tempest cleric, but my party (not the dm) is trying to talk me into the life or war domain on the basis that weather spells, especially call lightning, will be next to useless in the underdark. Do you think it might be a gamble to use tempest in this setting?
    You are bringing weather to a new area and showing them what they are missing out.

    I'm not sure how many spells do worse in doors/underground... Call Lightning does extra damage when done in a storm. Call Lightning needs room to be but I don't think it really matters if you are outdoors or in a huge cave. You really only need a 60' radius 100' above you either you are outdoors or inside.

    Nothing else comes to mind really.

    Perhaps your tempest cleric is in the underdark wanting to learn about the environment down there?

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Yorrin's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by SisypheanArchon View Post
    Just wanting your opinion, I'm rolling a level 1 cleric to replace my unfortunately deceased fighter. The rest of the party is level 2 now and the entire adventure seems likely to take place in the underdark. That said, I was looking towards a tempest cleric, but my party (not the dm) is trying to talk me into the life or war domain on the basis that weather spells, especially call lightning, will be next to useless in the underdark. Do you think it might be a gamble to use tempest in this setting?
    Well, fortunately for you the "weather" spells don't come online until later in the build, and are not crucial to your success as a Cleric anyway. At level one you're getting Thunderwave and Fog Cloud, both of which work great underground. In fact, other than Call Lightning there are very few space constraints you can't work around. And again- nothing says you have to cast Call Lightning. It's really kind of mediocre for a blasting spell unless you're really needing to conserve spell slots, and even then your Sacred Flame (which if your DM is generous can be re-flavored to Divine Bolt or something) will catch up to it in damage. So I'd say that if you're really feeling a Tempest Cleric, go for it. Most people are hung up on Life and War because those are more "popular" domains, but they are by no means universally the most effective.

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Tempest Cleric here, and it's got plenty of flexibility. The "other" third level domain spell isn't too bad at slowing down a load of bad guys. Call Lightning is OK IF you make the concentration checks along the way and keep raining down bolts on the foe. If you miss that first concentration check, arrgh. I"ve had it work both ways.

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Tempest Cleric here, and it's got plenty of flexibility. The "other" third level domain spell isn't too bad at slowing down a load of bad guys. Call Lightning is OK IF you make the concentration checks along the way and keep raining down bolts on the foe. If you miss that first concentration check, arrgh. I"ve had it work both ways.
    Though Sleet Storm is better in the Sorcerer (careful spell) I've found that the cleric can use it to great effect.

    I'm a big fan of using it as an area denial spell rather than dropping it specifically on an enemy to make them fall/lose concentration). One or two rounds of them trying to figure out a way around the area is another one or two rounds my allies are safe.

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    For Divine Intervention I've always liked a spell from the domain's list one level above the casters current level (If applicable to the fight.) But that's advice to GMs not to the Clerics, hah.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    Quote Originally Posted by NerdExtrodinare View Post
    For Divine Intervention I've always liked a spell from the domain's list one level above the casters current level (If applicable to the fight.) But that's advice to GMs not to the Clerics, hah.
    I always go to the SilverClawShift example of "Holy Water downpour in town full of Zombies" as my classic example. It's a big, semi-flashy effect not covered by normal spells.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

    I've updated the guide!

    I was looking at Bard builds today and noticed how Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard 19 is a freaking amazing support build. Inspired by that, I decided to add a brief section at the end of the guide on using Cleric dips in other builds. Feel free to chime in with your thoughts on what should/shouldn't be in that section. Most of it is, unfortunately, theorycraft. I'd love to hear from anyone that's actually played a Cleric/Monk or a Cleric/Sorcerer, for example, to see how it turned out.

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