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2014-09-30, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
As the title. I know you can't use Aptitude Focus to qualify for one, but if you took, say, Dragonslayer, which doesn't have a casting prereq, would it advance your Arcane Focus?
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2014-09-30, 10:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Chameleon does not give spellcasting, so it unfortunately can't be progressed. you can't "progress" your aptitude focus ability with +spellcasting classes.
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2014-09-30, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.Greenman by Bradakhan/Spring Greenman by Comissar/Autumn Greenman by Sgt. Pepper/Winter Greenman by gurgleflep
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2014-09-30, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
From the description of the arcane focus ability:
You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard doesPlease use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
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2014-09-30, 11:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.Greenman by Bradakhan/Spring Greenman by Comissar/Autumn Greenman by Sgt. Pepper/Winter Greenman by gurgleflep
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2014-09-30, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Okay, this is a little tricky.
Chameleon's aptitude focus cannot be used to qualify for any prestige classes. However, they do grant spells per day and a caster level, and "spellcasting class" is never actually defined anywhere. So it would have to be up to your DM as to what a spellcasting class technically is....but I think granting the ability to cast spells should be enough even without an explicit "spells" ability. The other issue is whether Chameleon is an arcane or divine prestige class, to which I say it's both as that is determined by what spell list they cast from (which is all of them).
So you'd have to use some other class combination to qualify for your desired prestige class, but could use it to advance your casting (similar to how invocation uses and shadow casters can be progressed by prestige classes that they don't natively qualify for). Being outside of your arcane/divine focus wouldn't make you lose your prestige class abilities since you qualified for them through other classes anyway (but why would you want to?)
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2014-10-01, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
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2014-10-01, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Races of the Dragon, page 32, in the Substituting Spellscale Racial Traits sidebar.
The loss of racial traits might mean you no longer meet the prerequisites for a prestige class, feat, or some other feature. In general, you lose any special ability for which you no longer qualify, and nothing is gained in its place.The Complete Warrior rules on losing prerequisites for a PrC apply to all books. This bothers me enough to sig it. If you disagree, please PM me, I'm down with being proven wrong.
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2014-10-01, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Say hello to Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster. Both should progress all your Chameleon abilities, albeit at a 7/10 and 2/3 rate, respectively.
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2014-10-01, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2014-10-01 at 12:28 PM.
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2014-10-01, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
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2014-10-01, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Dex
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Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
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2014-10-01, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Yep, this is the only airtight answer I could think of as well. Uncanny Trickster works quite well with Chameleon, too (both thematically, and the mechanics are pretty good too: 8 skill points/level instead of 4, 1 good save instead of none, and same BAB. Main downside is 1 level that could have another base class or PrC jammed in, and d6 HD instead of d8.)
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2014-10-01, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Do note, however, that although Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Cham advance Chameleon beyond the cap, there are very few things that are altered beyond cap, pretty much only caster level.
Last edited by Ruethgar; 2014-10-01 at 05:13 PM.
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2014-10-01, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Theoretically yes, as would Ruathar (Races of the Wild). Honestly, that sort of thing is probably the best way to finish up a Chameleon build at higher levels - a "standard" entry of something like Rogue-5/Chameleon-10 doesn't have any obvious direction to go for 16th level. Ask your DM, though, as certain aspects of that are a little dicey.
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2014-10-01, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
That seems like a kinda narrow reading of what's presented. The two sentences, as presented, seem more like they read as a pair of related if-then statements.
"If you lose racial traits, Then you might not continue to fill a prerequisite for an ability."
Followed by
"If you don't meet prerequisites for an ability, Then you lose access to them, barring exceptions."
The first statement is related to spellscales specifically, while the second is spelling out why the first is relevant. The "in general" is setting a baseline, which is needed for ther to be exceptions.
Plus, if you look at the exceptions it further supports this. The first sets up "if you don't qualify because of this rite, while the second calls out prestige classes without providing any such qualifiers, stating no matter what you keep the chassis. It also sets precedent that you can regain class abilities if you meet all the prerequisites. This supports that it isn't just loss or regaining of racial abilities, but of any abilities. At that point, it is broad enough that it can easily cover just spellscales.
So to that, I pose the opposite of your initial assertion. Can you provide a citation which shows that "the loss of prerequisites cause the loss of abilities" is only applicable to the prestige classes in CWar and CArc, or for anything spellscales do? (Preemptive note, just to save us some time, these rules aren't in contradiction to anything, so their absence from primary sources isn't relevant. The PHB Errata's bit on prescedence of primary sources is only for situations of contradiction. Not saying that's your position, just addressing it ahead of time.)The Complete Warrior rules on losing prerequisites for a PrC apply to all books. This bothers me enough to sig it. If you disagree, please PM me, I'm down with being proven wrong.
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2014-10-01, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Intent is not provable, so the "does the CW rule apply to all PrC's" is not really provable either.
However...
1) There's the Primary Source Rule at the top of the errata for the core books:
Originally Posted by DMG Errata
I choose to treat the DMG as the primary Source for general rules no how to handle PrCs, and treat the Complete Warrior limitation as a conflict (specifically as a copy/paste error during development - they copied the text from the wrong version of the DMG). Not everyone will choose the same way.
That said: I also don't take things verbatim from the DMG when I'm DMing. I treat it thusly: If you voluntarily relenquish a PrC requirement, then you lose most PrC benefits (with exceptions to avoid things like the quantum dragon disciple). If a PrC requirement is stripped from you, then you maintain all PrC abilities but can no longer advance in that PrC. Why? I don't want people cheating their way out of the feat tax built into a lot of PrC's, but I also don't want that Ex-Paladin-5/Blackguard-10 NPC the party is fighting to suddenly turn into an NPC Warrior because of a first level spell.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2014-10-01, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
I hear you. And, I think we are starting to get into a tangent about prereqs. Thankfully, we are not debating losing actual prereqs. The statement I was questioning was that you only get the benefit of Incantatrix while in arcane focus. However, assuming you qualified for Incantatrix using something other than Chameleon (which is required), then you aren't losing the prereqs.
Also, if we allow that Chameleon is an arcane spellcasting class, then it is so whether or not you have arcane focus up. The class grants casting, even if you aren't using it. Next, Incantatrix says:
When a new incantatrix level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class granted her access to 3 rd-level spells before she added the prestige class.Dex
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2014-10-01, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Regardless of what a strict reading of RAW says, does anyone actually think it makes sense for the restriction on prestige class prerequisites to only apply to ones in the books where it's specifically called out? Because that just seems dumb to me.
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2014-10-01, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Not really. The reason there's even an argument about it, and similar things in the first place, is that there's so little to go off of that the uncertainty makes it a fertile ground for arguments. In a real life scenario, it's pretty much always 'ask your DM' territory. As a DM I don't set rules on it, I just treat each case as I see fit.
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2014-10-01, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
I for one don't. If you're (for example) a Blackguard who becomes Lawful Good, I see no reason why you would still have an aura of evil, a blessing/spells from dark powers, or a fiendish creature following you around, and if I'm revoking all of that I'm going to revoke the rest too.
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2014-10-01, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
That's fine, but why would he suddenly lose the ability to make sneak attacks or use poison? Why would an Assassin turned Good, why would you suddenly lose all your knowledge of assassination techniques? Why would an Arcane Archer lose their ability to channel spells through their bows if they're reincarnated as a dwarf (let's assume they have a couple levels of fighter so they still have bow proficiency)?
The fact is that whichever way you rule it something breaks. RAW is ambiguous. The only sane real-game answer is individually adjudicating abilities.Last edited by Jeff the Green; 2014-10-01 at 09:41 PM.
Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.Greenman by Bradakhan/Spring Greenman by Comissar/Autumn Greenman by Sgt. Pepper/Winter Greenman by gurgleflep
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2014-10-01, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
True. It makes sense to prevent advancement in a PrC that you no longer meet the prereqs for (nonevil characters can't take Assassin 1, why can they take Assassin 3?) but I wouldn't have them lose the benefits (except for alignment-based things such as the Blackguard's non-Ex abilities).
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2014-10-02, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Usually I find the issue is more with bad prerequisites more than anything. If I lose, say, Weapon Focus, it makes sense that I can't use Invisible Blade stuff. That's sensible. If I get reincarnated at a dwarf, it makes no sense that I can become a dwarven defender, nor does it make sense that I can't keep progressing shadowcraft mage. Still, ultimately I tend to divorce the effects of that from what makes sense in-universe. There's gonna be corner cases where things stop making sense either way, and I prefer leaving an incentive to not find ways to trade prereqs away.
And to point out further "huh?" moments, why are monks incapable of learning to punch harder if they start taking after the slaad? Why can't a bard keep learning to sing better if they play by the rules? Requirements force the world to be kinda weird sometimes.The Complete Warrior rules on losing prerequisites for a PrC apply to all books. This bothers me enough to sig it. If you disagree, please PM me, I'm down with being proven wrong.
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2014-10-02, 12:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
This is why alignment and class-specific prerequisites are stupid.
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2014-10-02, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Not really. Considering how many things work off of alignment (Smite, Protection/Circle against X, the Artifact books) alignment is a key part of D&D. Not as key as classes and skills, but a key part nonetheless. The class-specific requirements keep the classes separate past level 5. Otherwise it doesn't matter your lead up as you can get into any class that only has skill requirements with Able Learner and a Factotum dip. Two things and all classes are open to you now. You'd still have to wait until your BAB is the right rank for the ones that care, but now there's really nothing to differentiate a Soulbow(bad class I know) from a Dervish or a Kensai from a Master of Nine(because martial maneuvers in the quantity needed can only be achieved by Martial Adepts)
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2014-10-02, 12:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Well, you could say that they aren't as practiced with poison anymore if they turn good but I actually agree with you on these. So I would limit it to Supernatural, Spell-like abilities and spells that come from the class. That just leaves the aura and servant, which should probably be magic anyway.
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2014-10-02, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
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2014-10-02, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Agreed - it's worth noting that PF removed the racial restriction as well.
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2014-10-02, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can you progress Chameleon spellcasting with another PrC
Yep. Chameleon is advanced by other classes.
When a rule is only mentioned in that specific book and causes things to utterly break if applied to other books, yeah. Ignoring the stuff about alignment and race goofiness, PrCs like Dragon Disciple and Ur-Priest simply do not function at all if you apply this rule generally. So given that it was intentionally removed from the DMG, intentionally put in a splat and does not function if applied to classes outside that particular splat... I think it's safe to say that no, it's not a general rule.