Offturn actions in PBP games

[Nightgaun7]

I'm running a campaign, and as we move out of hiatus and back to combat, I was thinking about that old thorn in the side of PBP games, the off-turn action.

More specifically, ones that monsters and NPCs have. Players, at least, can write contingency orders ("I use Wind of Reprisal if targeted by Avazul the Horrible's Flying Death Skull but not otherwise" or "I Riposte strike on any eligible target") but it seems quite difficult to do with NPCs. If you write contingency orders for them the players know exactly what to avoid, if you don't then there is by necessity some retconning.

And yet, off-turn actions are an incredibly powerful tool for monsters and NPCs. They allow them to disrupt or stop PC attacks, pile on damage to reach a threatening level before the leaders can deal with it, protect themselves and allies, escape or attack unpredictably, and on and on. It's a real shame to have to strip away such a huge part of so many monsters.

Has anyone successfully used monsters with off-turn actions in their PBP game?

[Dimers]

This does not answer your question, but ...

I've been thinking about the "players will avoid monster triggers" problem myself recently, and I thought, but I wouldn't avoid them ... It's true. I pretty frequently do the dumb thing the DM wants someone to do, because I have a streak of Instigator motivation in me, and because I like making DMs happy. It's actually more likely that I'll do something dumb if I see it coming; watching the blood fly and the drama spin is more rewarding for me than playing optimally.

So you just need to get one or two Instigators in your player base. Problem solved!

I'll be watcing the thread with interest in case somebody chimes in with a more useful and relevant answer.

[Kurald Galain]

I would go for "trust your DM" on this one. Because if the players don't trust the DM, you're having bigger issues than this. When playing at a table, I don't tell my players the specifics either is if an enemy readies an action; I just say "This monster readies. Next."

[Nightgaun7]

I would go for "trust your DM" on this one. Because if the players don't trust the DM, you're having bigger issues than this. When playing at a table, I don't tell my players the specifics either is if an enemy readies an action; I just say "This monster readies. Next."

It's not an issue of trust (unless my players are secretly plotting my overthrow, which seems unlikely in a PBP game...). More just the practical details of handling them.

With a readied action, the players at least know something is coming ahead of time without knowing what that action is or why it will be triggered. It will probably still involve some retconning but still.

Let's take the Adamaaz Draconian as an example. First monster I found with a couple of triggered actions, Thunderous Throes and Marauding Step. Thunderous Throes is triggered when the draconian drops to 0 hp, and is an AoE prone/deafen. Marauding Step is triggered when an adjacent enemy shifts; as an immediate reaction, the draconian can shift 1 and make an MBA against the triggering enemy. If you take these two abilities away for PBP play, you now have a level 6 soldier with a melee basic and nothing else.

Thunderous Throes is vital to it being a Draconian, and your players would probably have a good chance of knowing all Draconians explode when they die, or else find out very quickly, resulting in perhaps one or two turns being retconned once and then people being ready for it after that. Still not elegant, but acceptable.

Marauding Step, on the other hand, will be neutered if you tell the PCs about it beforehand. And unlike Thunderous Throes, which happens once and can be anticipated, Marauding Step is an at-will. It can be triggered several times over the course of the encounter, and the Draconian may choose not to use it. The PC's will figure it out soon enough, but even after that it has to be resolved individually each time. And god help you if there are several of these guys mixing it up with the PCs.

Eliminating monsters with triggered actions is a poor alternative, since so many monsters have them and they really add a lot to them. Many of my favorites rely to a large degree on synergy with triggered and normal actions. And it makes them much more interesting to fight imo.

[Tegu8788]

One option is to give the trigger, but not the result. This isn't a good solution, but I can't think of a better one.

[Gavran]

I love our 4E forum people, but I wonder if opening this (these) discussions up to a larger audience might be helpful? My experience with other editions isn't very broad, and PBP almost non-existent, but I imagine some of these issues would come up in other editions' PBP games too, right?

I don't want to damage your enjoyment of DMing in the slightest, but it's worth noting that I at least have retrained my off-turn stuff because I found avoiding the problem easier than solving it. I mean, it's a sacrifice for players too, you know? But on the other hand a PC has a lot more avenues for customization and ways to be... interesting and fun to pilot than a monster does. I want to say "Can't you find monsters with interesting non-off-turn powers and use those?" but with the caveat that I don't know if the answer to that is actually yes, let alone "Yes and it won't make the game less fun for me."

[Meltheim]

I specifically try to avoid choosing off-turn or contingency powers (if player x does y, then I do z) because it is difficult to coordinate with other players.

When I am DMing though, I have no problem using them because I often check the forums 20 times a day, I know what the triggers are, and I can leverage my position as a DM to handwave any conflicts that arise. In one of my games, I sad at the very first round, "anyone moving adjacent will trigger Horrific Repulsion" and then left it at that. 4 rounds later, someone moved adjacent and I hopped on to resolve the trigger. It ended in the player's original attack not taking place (which was good for the player, since he missed his original attack), and the player made a new attack once the trigger was resolved.

As you get into higher and higher levels, of course, off-turn becomes more rampant. I can't imagine how 5e's "Lair Actions" are going to play out on PbP.

[Nightgaun7]

I don't want to damage your enjoyment of DMing in the slightest, but it's worth noting that I at least have retrained my off-turn stuff because I found avoiding the problem easier than solving it. I mean, it's a sacrifice for players too, you know?

I didn't really understand why you did that, since it's a lot easier for me to work with an off-turn power than it is for you guys. As long as you say which power(s) you're keeping "active" in case the trigger comes up and any limits on the trigger, I can just executeours though. according to whatever you said. It's not flawless but it doesn't seem to be nearly as big an issue as the other way around. In the OP of the OOC I gave instructions for how to do it, too. I don't recall if we had some specific issue with a power of y

"Can't you find monsters with interesting non-off-turn powers and use those?" but with the caveat that I don't know if the answer to that is actually yes, let alone "Yes and it won't make the game less fun for me."

There's something like a 50% chance any given low-level monster has an off-turn action (determined by me opening the monster editor, picking 10 random level 5 monsters, and counting the number that had some sort of of-turn action), and the percentage increases notably as you get into higher levels (7 out of 10 random monsters at level 15).

So the issues seem to me to be

1) limited monster selection
2) a good bit of work adapting monsters, or significantly easier monsters if they just get all off-turn actions cut
3) monsters that are less interesting, less difficult, and/or lacking flavor

[Gavran]

We didn't have any glaringly terrible specific problems or anything, but it just complicates things. And while off-turn actions are often the best choice for a PC, that doesn't mean the other options aren't good and can't be fun too. Admittedly, my use of Opportunity Knocks was a bigger issue but I don't have as easy a solution for that. :p (Other than working to get CA in other ways more often.)

And I definitely hear you. All I meant is that from my never-a-DM perspective it seems like there is a huge amount of monsters and with refluffing available maybe it wouldn't be so hard to eliminate some of them. But that's all just a guess. Definitely not suggesting that you do that if it would make things harder/less fun.