Erfworld thread IV: In memory of King Saline

[Landis963]

Question that just occurred to me: how does Charlie know Parson has eyes on this battle? So far, I don't think anything has occurred that could not have occurred without Parson's influence: prisoner escape is a thing that happens, and its not unreasonable to assume that Ansom would seize his moment to save the Tool of his own volition. My first thought would be monitoring Maggie's thinkamancy, but if that were the case Charlie would have known about Ansom's attack and acted sooner to prevent it/warn Jillian's side.

Genre savvy. Charlie's come across one of those "perfect warlords" before, and doesn't trust coincidences when they're around.

[HalfTangible]

We have woefully insufficient data on the subject of Prisoners, but IIRC the point of the link was also to improve Ansom's resolve so he would be able to free himself and go from prisoner to fugitive.
Oh hey, dug up the page where they talked about prisoners, they explicitly can't be sent thinkagrams.

... okay. So how is this link even possible in the first place? This is basically a thinkagram >.>

[Lizard Lord]

... okay. So how is this link even possible in the first place? This is basically a thinkagram >.>

Because she is linked to Wanda? *shrugs*

[Leewei]

Because she is linked to Wanda? *shrugs*

Also, as a decrypted, Ansom is linked to Wanda.

[Fjolnir]

Then why doesn't Wanda take damage every time a decrypted falls or is hurt? We know that Wanda can see through the eyes of her Decrypted already, and she watches them fall die all the time.

The ONLY decrypted units we know she can see through are the decrypted archons...

[The Glyphstone]

Megalogwiffs look just as intimidating on the ground, at least from this angle. Sort of sumo-wrestler-ish.

[Aquillion]

I think Charlie's offer was definitely intended to make Parson react like this.

The issue is that -- why would Parson accept? Charlie isn't actually offering anything useful. GK doesn't need the money, and killing Jillian is vastly more valuable in any case. Beyond that, Parson knows Charlie has it in for him (and Charlie has to know he knows at this point), so Parson is obviously going to parse any offer from Charlie in that light.

[HalfTangible]

I think Charlie's offer was definitely intended to make Parson react like this.

The issue is that -- why would Parson accept? Charlie isn't actually offering anything useful. GK doesn't need the money, and killing Jillian is vastly more valuable in any case. Beyond that, Parson knows Charlie has it in for him (and Charlie has to know he knows at this point), so Parson is obviously going to parse any offer from Charlie in that light.

I've been getting the feeling of scrambling panic from Charlie this chapter - ie, he's being forced to think on the spot with the limited resources he has. He's offering the deal to Parson in a blind panic because - love her or hate her - Jillian is one of Charlie's strongest allies/assets/whatever-ya-wanna-call-it.

Alternatively, Charlie is thoroughly ticked because of last book's shenanigans and wants Jillian dead to rights. By which i mean dead.

[Kornaki]

This isn't terribly unusual. Right before Parson set off the volcano Charlie was still trying to make a deal; it's what the man/dish thing does. All that is required is believing that Jillian's odds of survival are greater if he makes the offer than if he doesn't, it isn't required that he thinks the offer has a good chance of success.

[HandofShadows]

Charlie is a chessmaster. He plans everything out ahead ot time or created the situation. This battle was totaly unforseen by him (Stanley being unpredictable) and him is way out of his element. Parson however IS very good at thinking on his feet as well as being a planner. And that is what scares the *^%@ out of Charlie because he has no way to predict what Parson will do.

[deuterio12]

I've been getting the feeling of scrambling panic from Charlie this chapter - ie, he's being forced to think on the spot with the limited resources he has. He's offering the deal to Parson in a blind panic because - love her or hate her - Jillian is one of Charlie's strongest allies/assets/whatever-ya-wanna-call-it.

Alternatively, Charlie is thoroughly ticked because of last book's shenanigans and wants Jillian dead to rights. By which i mean dead.

I believe it's more of a matter of Charlie wanting to protect his secrets rather than covering up a mad "ally" that constantly goes off-plan and just does whatever she wants without regards for the greater picture. Charlie had actually told Jillian in an earlier update that she was on her own after running away from the battle for Jetstone.

His chance of mind is because Jillian knows a lot about Charlie at this point, and if she falls on GK's hands, then she'll sing a lot of valuable intel to Hamster

Jillian dying wouldn't prevent that either, as Stanley just'll have to carry her cold dead corpse to the nearest portal to the MK for Wanda to decrypt her and make Jillian spill out a lot of beans about Charlie. Super effective because we know that dying and being decrypted ends the "until you die" contracts that Charlie enforced with FAQs forces back in the day to keep their moutsh shut.

I bet that Charlie is currently banging his head against the arkendish thinking "Holy titans why did I trust her so much?" but it's too late to regret that now. He's gonna try to do everything he can to prevent GK from taking in Jillian, dead or alive.

[Fjolnir]

Spoiler: New Forecastle

Show

He wins this portion via exploiting superstition and luckamancy...

[Mobius Twist]

Spoiler

Show

I predict that the eagle's capture mechanic might become useful in short order.

Called it.

[Aquillion]

Regarding Charlie, it occurs to me that he could want Jillian to die here, where they will have trouble retrieving her corpse, rather than someplace where she could be Decrypted.

It's also possible that Wanda's sudden intense determination to kill and Decrypt Jillian is similar to her determination to kill and Decrypt Jack -- she knows it will free Jillian from her deal with Charlie, and possibly whatever Thinkamancy they did to her brain.

[Math_Mage]

Why is there speculation that Charlie wants Jillian to die here? Is it because he broke link with Vanna? I don't get it.

[The Glyphstone]

Why is there speculation that Charlie wants Jillian to die here? Is it because he broke link with Vanna? I don't get it.

We're expecting reverse psychology, is my guess. Charlie is trying to buy off Jillian's life from Parson, thus making Parson + Co. think he wants Jillian alive and thus encourage them to kill her and spite him (when in fact it's the opposite).

[deuterio12]

We're expecting reverse psychology, is my guess. Charlie is trying to buy off Jillian's life from Parson, thus making Parson + Co. think he wants Jillian alive and thus encourage them to kill her and spite him (when in fact it's the opposite).

If Charlie wanted Jillian dead, all he needed to do was just sit down and watch. GK's ground infantry would auto-engage anyway, and even Stanley said "I'm gonna finish this", meaning he'll make sure that Jillian doesn't leave the hex alive.

[Kornaki]

Why is there speculation that Charlie wants Jillian to die here? Is it because he broke link with Vanna? I don't get it.

Because Charlie's attempt to deal with Parson was pretty weak, so people think that it was intended to prod Parson into killing Jillian.

[Killer Angel]

Called it.

...and it was satisfying.
Good bird! (pat pat)

[ryuplaneswalker]

Because Charlie's attempt to deal with Parson was pretty weak, so people think that it was intended to prod Parson into killing Jillian.

It really wasn't, there was not much attempt to deal beyond

Charlie : "Hey lets nego"

Parson : "Get Bent"

Wanda : "JILLIAN MUST PAY! for reasons unrelated to her not loving me...yeah!

Parson : "Great Wanda hopped on the crazy train" "Sure Wanda..lets croak her"

[Winterwind]

Why is there speculation that Charlie wants Jillian to die here? Is it because he broke link with Vanna? I don't get it.

Well, as said, Charlie's offer to Parson was not exactly amazing, and it resulted in Parson doing everything in his power to make sure Jillian dies all the more. So, if his goal was to save Jillian, it backfired big time. This leaves us with the options:
1) Charlie just completely messed up. Since this is Charlie, a lot of people here give him the benefit of the doubt and do not believe this one.
2) Charlie was manipulating Parson into doing exactly what Parson just did. To what ends, difficult to tell; actually wanting Jillian to die is one possibility a lot of people believe in, but it seems doubtful to me, given that he warned her and tried to help her out via Vanna in the first place.
3) Charlie knew this was unlikely to help, but figured that not doing anything would result in a dead Jillian all the same, so he might as well try.

My personal theory? I think Charlie doesn't know about Misty being dead. He has his tons of dossiers on the units of all sides, so he knows Gobwin Knob has a Lookamancer, but there really wasn't much of a chance for him to learn that she died, given that it happened just a few turns before Parson did his thing and Gobwin Knob started steamrolling everyone. Hence, he assumed Parson was seeing everything in detail already and was fully aware of Jillian still being alive. Parson reacting the way he did now might clue Charlie in to the fact that Misty is, in fact, dead, and Parson's intel is much worse than he thought it was - a piece of knowledge that might work out greatly to Charlie's advantage in the upcoming war.

It really wasn't, there was not much attempt to deal beyond

Charlie : "Hey lets nego"

Parson : "Get Bent"

...no, Parson very explicitly asked Charlie what he had to offer. He was suspicious of Charlie's motives, as he should be, but he did not cut him off before allowing him to make his offer (or part of it, at least).

Wanda : "JILLIAN MUST PAY! for reasons unrelated to her not loving me...yeah!

Parson : "Great Wanda hopped on the crazy train" "Sure Wanda..lets croak her"

I don't think it was so much "JILLIAN MUST PAY! for reasons unrelated to her not loving me...yeah!" as "Oh, finally, a chance for all of my wishes to come true and for me to get Jillian's full and unshared love.".

[Jasdoif]

If Charlie wanted Jillian dead, all he needed to do was just sit down and watch. GK's ground infantry would auto-engage anyway, and even Stanley said "I'm gonna finish this", meaning he'll make sure that Jillian doesn't leave the hex alive.

If Charlie wanted Jillian dead, he'd want her to die on terms favorable to him. If nothing else, Jillian is a strong warlord, so Decrypted Jillian would be quite an asset for Parson. And I'm confident Charlie doesn't want to give Parson any free advantages.

[HalfTangible]

Thought of something: The problem with the 'Charlie wants Jillian to die' angle is that Gobwin Knob has decryption.

[The Glyphstone]

Thought of something: The problem with the 'Charlie wants Jillian to die' angle is that Gobwin Knob has decryption.

Only if they can get Wanda to Jillian's hex before their next turn. Depending on how far out she is from Spacerock, they might or might not be able to dwagon relay in time.

[HandofShadows]

Only if they can get Wanda to Jillian's hex before their next turn. Depending on how far out she is from Spacerock, they might or might not be able to dwagon relay in time.

That's only if they don't disturb the body. If they move it, it will not vanish and Wanda can decrypt her.

[HalfTangible]

Only if they can get Wanda to Jillian's hex before their next turn. Depending on how far out she is from Spacerock, they might or might not be able to dwagon relay in time.

A side can claim a corpse as a resource, which keeps it intact for a longer period.

[TheStranger]

I don't think Charlie is trying to get Jillian killed, but it's possible that he's trying to pin Stanley down. I don't think he cares about Jillian, so it's possible that his goal is to make Stanley commit his units to killing her, weakening him and allowing Charlie to bring a larger force into position to take Stanley out while he's weak. Open assault would normally be against Charlie's style, but since he's already tipped his hand by turning the hobgobwins he may figure it's worth it to take Stanley out.

Or, and I think this is at least equally possible, Charlie looks like he erred here because that's a side effect of trying to write two supposed geniuses outmaneuvering each other. In order for one of them to be shown to be a genius, the other has to make an error that's vulnerable to second-guessing. Xanatos Worf Effect, as it were.

[Welf]

My personal theory? I think Charlie doesn't know about Misty being dead. He has his tons of dossiers on the units of all sides, so he knows Gobwin Knob has a Lookamancer, but there really wasn't much of a chance for him to learn that she died, given that it happened just a few turns before Parson did his thing and Gobwin Knob started steamrolling everyone. Hence, he assumed Parson was seeing everything in detail already and was fully aware of Jillian still being alive. Parson reacting the way he did now might clue Charlie in to the fact that Misty is, in fact, dead, and Parson's intel is much worse than he thought it was - a piece of knowledge that might work out greatly to Charlie's advantage in the upcoming war.

I think that is unlikely. He should be aware that onl Parson, Wanda, Sizemore and Maggie entered the magic kingdom since he has allies there. He also know Stanley only had a Foolamancer in his stack. To still have a Lookamancer they would have to either send her out GK before the battle, or she would have to stay and survived the vulcano trap. And since the battle GK has used scouts.

[Winterwind]

I think that is unlikely. He should be aware that onl Parson, Wanda, Sizemore and Maggie entered the magic kingdom since he has allies there. He also know Stanley only had a Foolamancer in his stack. To still have a Lookamancer they would have to either send her out GK before the battle, or she would have to stay and survived the vulcano trap. And since the battle GK has used scouts.

Good points, all of them. I retract that theory.

[Aquillion]

Really, this brings up another point:

Why do we so rarely see nations acquire new casters from the MK?

According to Digdoug's story, there should be a bunch of them sticking around desperate for a job (since they need it to survive.) GK has a ton of money, seems to be winning overwhelmingly, and ought to have been able to sweep up huge amounts of casters.