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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default [Variant] How balanced is this?

    I was discussing some things with a friend, and the point was brought up that in a low- or no-magic setting, fighters and barbarians don't really get all that much better as far as damage. All the bonus damage they get is based on magic weapons and such.

    So I got to thinking, how balanced would it be to allow bonus damage on attacks based on BAB?

    The method my friend proposed was, after they're allowed a second attack, they gain bonus damage equal to the BAB of that second attack on the first attack, and after they get a third, they get bonus damage on the second equal to the BAB of the last attack.

    IE, BAB 8/3, On the first attack, they get a +3 damage bonus. On the second, no bonus.

    BAB 16/11/6, on the first attack they get +11 damage, on the second, +6, nothing on the third.

    How bad would this be as far as game balance issues, especially in the higher levels?

    Thanks in advance,
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    Finally, a boost for fighters which doesn't aid wizards excessively. Though it also makes a divine metacheese persist divine power cleric a lot better.
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    In a normal campaign this WOULD be detrimental to trying to contain CoDzilla. However, I'm going to assume that low-to-no magic means the most you'll find around is a Bard or Adept, so this works pretty well. It's nice and elegant.

    Amendment: You may wish to watch what monsters you use under this system, however. Some of them get their BAB based on their HD... and giving something like the Tarrasque a +52 to damage for it's first Bite attack would be excessive.
    Last edited by That Lanky Bugger; 2007-03-14 at 02:44 PM.
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    I see, and thank you for the advice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viscount Einstrauss View Post
    Player: Heh, that was easy.
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    Player: Huh? From what?
    DM: Raw spite.
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by lankybugger View Post
    Amendment: You may wish to watch what monsters you use under this system, however. Some of them get their BAB based on their HD... and giving something like the Tarrasque a +52 to damage for it's first Bite attack would be excessive.
    The beauty is, you don't gain additional attacks with natural attacks, so this wouldn't apply.
    Last edited by InaVegt; 2007-03-14 at 03:01 PM.
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gezina View Post
    The beauty is, you don't gain additional attacks with natural attacks, so this wouldn't apply.
    This is true of a Tarrasque, yes.

    How about Solars? +35/+30/+25/+20 for their BAB. Or Balors, with +31/+26/+21/+16? There are plenty of creatures with high BAB and no Natural Attacks.

    I would limit this to characters with class levels. High CR creatures who could benefit from this generally have enough magical enhancement not to need the buff anyway.
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    It looks good. As long as you limit enemies to humaniods, giants, and animals and don't allow full casters it seems fine for balance.
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    I was tossing around only giving it to those with full BAB, so as to remove the CoDzilla influence, and I don't see why limiting it to those with class levels is a bad idea, either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viscount Einstrauss View Post
    Player: Heh, that was easy.
    DM: You take 12 lethal damage.
    Player: Huh? From what?
    DM: Raw spite.
    Quote Originally Posted by NecroPaladin View Post
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    The problem is that with Divine Power, the cleric effectively gains a full BAB. It's not too difficult to work around that, however - or simply allow it, since they won't have access to the magic items that make for a CoDzilla.
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    I like it, but to keep it out of the hands of monsters and the dreaded CoDzilla, make it a class ability that barbarians and fighters (and other dominant melee classes) gain at 6th level.

    Edit: What about scaling AC with level as well? Fighting classes should really get better at defending themselves as they gain levels...

    I was thinking of giving characters a dodge bonus to AC equal to 1/4 of their actual BAB (this stops CoDzilla from getting it with a single spell). But how unbalanced would it be to increase it to 1/2 instead of 1/4?
    Last edited by Black Mage; 2007-03-15 at 06:28 PM.
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    That sounds to be an excellent point, Black Mage, but I query-- What would the ability be called? It's not the sort of thing one takes lightly.

    Also, scaling AC sounds like a great idea, but I know nothing of balance, which is why I ask the opinions of the people here. They're much smarter than I am, in at least 4 respects. Which I will not name. Also, why a dodge bonus? Unless I'm misinformed, Dodge bonuses stack, unlike any other variety. Why not give them a different kind, for example, a Proficiency bonus (except not called that, because it's stupid) which is entirely different. Dodge bonuses seem to not fit it well, considering BAB is about stabbing or bludgeoning people, not so much Getting the Hell out of Dodge. No repetetive word usage intended.
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    Last edited by DaMullet; 2007-03-15 at 07:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viscount Einstrauss View Post
    Player: Heh, that was easy.
    DM: You take 12 lethal damage.
    Player: Huh? From what?
    DM: Raw spite.
    Quote Originally Posted by NecroPaladin View Post
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    Dodge was the first thing that came to mind because I figure as they gain in level and experience, they are learning to dodge their enemies attacks. Having this scale with BAB just shows how well they can do it based on their level of training. A fighter is going to learn how to get the hell out of the way of a swinging sword better than a wizard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeWizard View Post
    Jade Phoenix Mages have the coolest capstone ability ever. They explode. Low on health? explode. Surrounded? expolde. Outsiders? explode. Explode? explode. Come back a few rounds later with all your hp.
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    Simple solution, make it a feat that only a fighter has access to. Make it accessable at 9th lvl, and one or two feats as prerequisites, and CODzilla has a little less chance of standing up to the meat sheild. However, this creates the potential problem of EVERY fighter taking this feat.
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    That's the thing, Fighters aren't meat shields, Barbarians are. Fighters are tanks, and I want BOTH to be able to gain the benefit without the CoDzilla troubles. If it's a feat, many Barbarians won't be able to take it, especially if it has prereq feats. That's why Black Mage's suggestion that it be a special ability granted to Full BAB base classes made so much sense. And the point is that every fighter and barbarian take the ability, because right now it's unbalanced in favor of casters as far as damage is concerned, and this tries to even the scales.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viscount Einstrauss View Post
    Player: Heh, that was easy.
    DM: You take 12 lethal damage.
    Player: Huh? From what?
    DM: Raw spite.
    Quote Originally Posted by NecroPaladin View Post
    'FEAR MY CUBESHOES! RAAAAAR!'

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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    As for the first thing, the damage, dunno, in a low/no magic champain, probly works pretty well, but the second thing intriges me. I'd say make it a class feature, not based off of BAB directly (thinking of the Monk, Rogue, and bard here) maybe not the rogue cuz' it aint technically a combat class but what ev' good luck!

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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    Yeah, maybe basing the AC increase off of BAB isn't the best idea....I'd say that all classes should get this ability, but it should really be different for each one. A wizard and sorcerer would have the lowest bonus by 20th...I'm thinking +1 AC for every 10 levels for them.
    For rogues, +1 for every 3 or 4 levels? They are supposed to be agile after all...
    Monks...Hmm...they already have tons of AC boosts as is....so I don't know what their bonuses would be.
    Fighters, +1 for every 4 levels. Same for Barbarians, maybe every 3 for them.
    Bards, +1 for every 5 levels?
    Rangers, +1 for every 4 levels like a fighter?
    I'm not sure about Druids, clerics, and paladins though...

    Anybody have any input on this?
    Last edited by Black Mage; 2007-03-19 at 06:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeWizard View Post
    Jade Phoenix Mages have the coolest capstone ability ever. They explode. Low on health? explode. Surrounded? expolde. Outsiders? explode. Explode? explode. Come back a few rounds later with all your hp.
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Mage View Post
    Yeah, maybe basing the AC increase off of BAB isn't the best idea....I'd say that all classes should get this ability, but it should really be different for each one. A wizard and sorcerer would have the lowest bonus by 20th...I'm thinking +1 AC for every 10 levels for them.
    For rogues, +1 for every 3 or 4 levels? They are supposed to be agile after all...
    Monks...Hmm...they already have tons of AC boosts as is....so I don't know what their bonuses would be.
    Fighters, +1 for every 4 levels. Same for Barbarians, maybe every 3 for them.
    Bards, +1 for every 5 levels?
    Rangers, +1 for every 4 levels like a fighter?
    I'm not sure about Druids, clerics, and paladins though...

    Anybody have any imput on this?
    Star Wars d20 has a similar system - there's a scaling defense bonus for each class. Might be something to look into.
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    Default Re: [Variant] How balanced is this?

    Consider using the Defence Bonus rules and make the AC Bonus also apply to DB.
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