The Flash on CW

[Ravian]

Barry I believe hasn't really realized the implications here because the meta-humans they have captured have all tried to harm him and people close to him. I believe that the blame is more squarely on Well's shoulders, since its almost entirely his own reputation that he's saving by not admitting to the existence of meta-humans that he created. Other than that, Barry definitely has a good sense of justice and right and wrong. Until we see anything more definite, he is a clear exception to your all meta-humans are evil rule.

Meanwhile what other meta-humans have we encountered. Essentially all of them were already criminals or bullies. Basing the actions of all meta-humans by the actions of people that were already evil before acquiring powers is like judging all members of any group based on the actions of some extremists. True we haven't encountered many meta-humans that weren't already criminals before gaining powers (aside from Barry) but that can more be chalked down to the fact that this is a show about a meta-human crime fighter. I have no doubt that they'll include some less than evil meta-humans before the series is through, (The boyfriend who got caught in the particle accelerator is especially likely given that he shares his name with a lesser known Meta-human hero.)

I hardly see how its naive to believe that people are good or bad based on their own actions, rather than their abilities. And judging that all people are irredeemable because of their superpowers is undeniably a blanket statement.

[Friv]

Meanwhile what other meta-humans have we encountered. Essentially all of them were already criminals or bullies. Basing the actions of all meta-humans by the actions of people that were already evil before acquiring powers is like judging all members of any group based on the actions of some extremists. True we haven't encountered many meta-humans that weren't already criminals before gaining powers (aside from Barry) but that can more be chalked down to the fact that this is a show about a meta-human crime fighter. I have no doubt that they'll include some less than evil meta-humans before the series is through, (The boyfriend who got caught in the particle accelerator is especially likely given that he shares his name with a lesser known Meta-human hero.)

I hardly see how its naive to believe that people are good or bad based on their own actions, rather than their abilities. And judging that all people are irredeemable because of their superpowers is undeniably a blanket statement.

In fact, given the lady with the bomb powers, it's safe to say that meta-powers don't make people evil; she was a good person, who Wells manipulated into doing something bad to try and protect people.

In fact, so far we have six metahumans displayed - Flash, Weather Wizard, Multiplex, Gasguy, Plastique, and Girder. Of the six, WW and the gas guy were super-murderous both before and after getting powers. Multiplex and Girder were total *******s, although we don't know what Multiplex was like before getting his powers and he may have been a lot more stable before his wife died. Plastique and Flash were both good people before, and stayed that way.

On the other hand - Girder in particular hasn't committed enough crimes that I'm willing to believe that he deserves indefinite detention in solitary confinement. He's a violent jerk, but it's possible that he could have been rehabilitated. (I could be wrong - it's unclear if he killed those police officers, but I think he just beat them up? Did he kill anyone during his episode?)

[Ravian]

In fact, given the lady with the bomb powers, it's safe to say that meta-powers don't make people evil; she was a good person, who Wells manipulated into doing something bad to try and protect people.

In fact, so far we have six metahumans displayed - Flash, Weather Wizard, Multiplex, Gasguy, Plastique, and Girder. Of the six, WW and the gas guy were super-murderous both before and after getting powers. Multiplex and Girder were total *******s, although we don't know what Multiplex was like before getting his powers and he may have been a lot more stable before his wife died. Plastique and Flash were both good people before, and stayed that way.

On the other hand - Girder in particular hasn't committed enough crimes that I'm willing to believe that he deserves indefinite detention in solitary confinement. He's a violent jerk, but it's possible that he could have been rehabilitated. (I could be wrong - it's unclear if he killed those police officers, but I think he just beat them up? Did he kill anyone during his episode?)

I missed the plastique epsiode, but I'm glad they've showed a meta-human other than Barry that wasn't one hundred percent evil. I also don't believe that Girder actually killed anyone. He certainly attempted to kill Flash several times, along with a host of smaller crimes, but that still doesn't mean that he irredeemable. (of course, now they've kind of tied themselves down from trying to accommodate him in a regular prison, since Barry had to do his little gloating bit without his mask on.)

[grolim]

While they have shown him do anything to make him irredeemable, Girder was shown to have a decade or more history of being a bully, a thug, a bit violent, and a total douche. Not irredeemable but easily career petty criminal and thug. And completely uncaring about anything but him and what he wants. Like others said he was already a criminal, his powers just let him ramp it up to 11 as well as the damage he can do.

[Ravian]

While they have shown him do anything to make him irredeemable, Girder was shown to have a decade or more history of being a bully, a thug, a bit violent, and a total douche. Not irredeemable but easily career petty criminal and thug. And completely uncaring about anything but him and what he wants. Like others said he was already a criminal, his powers just let him ramp it up to 11 as well as the damage he can do.

That as may be, it's still not Barry and Star lab's place to judge, it's the legal system's. That's what it all boils down to. Even if every person that ever ended up in their prison would have ended up with life imprisonment if they had been given to the proper authorities, it still doesn't justify them, because they still have the right to due process under the law. Once you allow a superhero and his cohorts to subvert legal rights because they have the power to enforce it, then you have created an autocratic system.

It's why I take umbrage with the dog analogy. Just because someone has the physical power to enforce their decisions, does not make them the "adult" in a scenario. An adult is trusted to have more experience in all regards than the child, enough so that they are allowed an incredible amount of control over the child's actions. But this kind of analogy is most often employed in a larger sense when justifying totalitarian regimes. A Dictator is the father of the country because of his strength and wisdom, which he uses to lead the ignorant masses and protect them from the wolves at their gates. However competent and well-intentioned that dictator may be, the system is still severely flawed because he cannot be infallible in all regards. Superman may be one of the most benevolent superheroes in comics with the power to back it up, but even he isn't infallible, which is why even he can't take over the world for our own good without it all going horribly wrong. It's also why even Batman, who lives in a city with one of the largest corruption problems ever, still doesn't kill his villains. Because he knows that no matter how flawed the justice system is that will continue to return the crooks to the streets, once he starts playing judge, jury and executioner, he knows he'll become no better than any other whack-job with a gun and a need for vengeance.

[Lizard Lord]

Geez. I just watch this show for wacky super hero fun and you guys are arguing about the ethics of it all. I think with this show you need to remember the MST3K mantra.

[Pex]

Geez. I just watch this show for wacky super hero fun and you guys are arguing about the ethics of it all. I think with this show you need to remember the MST3K mantra.

I believe in the rail system too, but I'll pass on the rock climbing.

Anyway, Flash kept his shirt on! They broke the pattern. Several opportunities for shirtless/open shirt scenes, but he kept it on and closed. Makes me wonder if they're saving it up for a double shirtless Flash and Arrow in their crossover. That gets the fangirls crazy but also just being cynical without cause. Here's to hoping it's an unfulfilled prophecy.

Has Clock King always been a Flash villain or at least his first? I associate him with Batman. It was obvious from his first scene he was someone known in the Flash universe and not having his watch mattered, but since I'm not so familiar with it I had no idea who he was. I was surprised when he was named. Granted, I only know Clock King from the 1960's Adam West show and the original Kevin Conroy cartoon series. He was not in John Wesley Shipp's Flash.

[grolim]

Actually I think he was introduced on Arrow in season 2? I also think it was the same actor portraying him. He was running a thief group having everything timed to the second and I seem to recall him doing it for money to save a family member. So cross series continuity.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3337656/

Yup same guy.

[leafman]

Anyone catch the names of people who died the night of the particle accelerator explosion? Poor Ralph Dibny

[Pex]

Actually I think he was introduced on Arrow in season 2? I also think it was the same actor portraying him. He was running a thief group having everything timed to the second and I seem to recall him doing it for money to save a family member. So cross series continuity.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3337656/

Yup same guy.

Understood. I don't watch Arrow so of course I wouldn't have known.

[grolim]

True, but I like continuity. Having set both series in the same universe for crossovers is nice, but if you crossover villains etc using the same actors etc is nice too. Start building that world. Expand it. Marvel has done that well, DC never has really. Maybe the CW can be a start.

[Friv]

Anyone catch the names of people who died the night of the particle accelerator explosion? Poor Ralph Dibny

Ehn, Weather Wizard and Girder were both also supposed to have died that night. I would not rule out Ralph re-appearing.

From another thread:

Spoiler: List of Dead People, Possible Spoilers

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Ronnie Raymond - the superhero Firestorm
Ralph Dibney - the superhero Elongated Man
Al Rothstein - the superhero Nuklon / Atom-Smasher
Grant Emerson: the superhero Damage
Will Everett: the superhero Amazing-Man
Bea da Costa - the superhero Fire

Basically, most of the people that Harrison names are people who are superheroes in the DC setting. Good chance that any or all of them could appear over time.

On-topic: I really liked this episode, and Iris is growing on me, but I really want to slap Barry upside the head, and I'm sad that we lost Girder so early. There was a lot of potential there.

[Slylizard]

The more I watch this, the more I'm positive I know who Wells is.

Spoiler: Wells

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Hunter Zolomon, Prof Zoom, a version of Reverse Flash. There are way too many similarities for it not to be this version. The paralysis, the 'need' to push Flash to become the best hero he can be are both there. I'm thinking that he saw Flash disappear in the future, thought 'if only he was better he would still be here' and thus went back to speed up his development. Zolomon is evil, but everything he does is to make Flash better... it just works in my mind.

[Kyberwulf]

If it's not their place to judge, then it isn't their place to play cops.

They just contaminate the crime scenes, and disrupt the due process in all it's forms. I don't get how it can be viewed okay to do it in one instance, but then it's not okay in another. By stopping these guys with superpowers as soon as they can, and locking them up so they can't perpetrate their crimes. They are in effect stopping any future innocent victims.

It just baffles me how it is being said, in the case of "They don't have the right to be the judge," The ends doesn't justify the means.

How ever in the preceding event, Stopping the criminals and then bring them to the point where they can be judged. The ends justify the means.

It just seems counter intuitive.

In one instance it's okay to act without being elected nor appointed by an elected official, yet in another it's not okay.

The question was asked when will they question the morality of locking people up. I don't see why they should question their actions if they aren't going to question all their actions.

[grolim]

The thing is, there is no due process for the guys they are holding. If they are found guilty, which would have happened, they cannot be held any other place. Plus as we saw with the General and Plastique, and with what we have seen in Arrow with Waller, these guys have a zero chance of winding up in prison. Really, when you get down to it, they are better off where they are now...if Wells wasn't evil/ up to something. They are not having bombs implanted into their brains and used as weapons. And, if Wells could do it, someone is trying to remove their powers so they CAN be released or put into the system. But, even as Joe noticed, the police are flat out not able to handle them. Not able to contain them. So neither is the system. If the team did not catch them they would either continue their rampage and kill more people, or the police would have to kill them since they could not catch them, or they get sucked into Waller's team and get a slightly more comfortable box to life in in exchange for a bombed brain and the occasional mission that could well be suicide. They know what they are doing is not really the best, but they also know it is the best that can be done...at this time.

[comicshorse]

T mission that could well be suicide. They know what they are doing is not really the best, but they also know it is the best that can be done...at this time.

But until they inform society at large about the existence of Metahumans it will ALWAYS be the best that can be done as no arrangements can be made to develop places to hold such prisoners until the world knows that such criminals exist

[Jayngfet]

If it's not their place to judge, then it isn't their place to play cops.

They just contaminate the crime scenes, and disrupt the due process in all it's forms. I don't get how it can be viewed okay to do it in one instance, but then it's not okay in another. By stopping these guys with superpowers as soon as they can, and locking them up so they can't perpetrate their crimes. They are in effect stopping any future innocent victims.

It just baffles me how it is being said, in the case of "They don't have the right to be the judge," The ends doesn't justify the means.

How ever in the preceding event, Stopping the criminals and then bring them to the point where they can be judged. The ends justify the means.

It just seems counter intuitive.

In one instance it's okay to act without being elected nor appointed by an elected official, yet in another it's not okay.

The question was asked when will they question the morality of locking people up. I don't see why they should question their actions if they aren't going to question all their actions.

It's a case of necessity.

Regular cops can't handle these people and regular prisons and courthouses may as well have a brightly lit exit sign for how fast they'd gat out. The city NEEDS the Flash to take down Metas and put them away. But that's all it needs the Flash for. Killing isn't something that they need to do, and thus it crosses a line.

[Kyberwulf]

Killing doesn't cross the line, if cops are allowed to do it in the course of executing their duties and if their aren't any other alternatives. Special teams are also created, such at SWAT, that are expected to do it.

If you are going to subvert due process, which Superheroes do on a regular basis, then why are you being so picky about what rules you subvert?

Let's look at another vigilante, because that's what all superheroes are, The Punisher. He is most well know for dispensing lethal justice. He takes the role to the extreme, which The Flash has been alluded too. Even The Punisher doesn't deprive anyone who is innocent of lesser crimes, of the right to live or freedom. He mostly stays out of the way of ordinary citizen and lets the cops do their job.

Also, The Flash wasn't outright killing people. He did the cop out thing of letting the Vict....er. Villains kill themselves.

On the topic of Plastique, while the events around her might have been manipulated. In the end it was still her choice to kill someone. She choose to kill them. That might be hard to swallow for some people, but that's what sets good guys from the bad guys. I am not saying I couldn't make a different choice if I was in the position. That wouldn't change the fact that I know right from wrong. So even she isn't

[grolim]

We are not sure it was Plastique's choice to kill. Wells seemed to be using some kind of mental mumbo jumbo. We know he has had access to Grodd, or maybe even that Grodd had access to him. We know he is a time traveler of some sort.

[comicshorse]

We are not sure it was Plastique's choice to kill. Wells seemed to be using some kind of mental mumbo jumbo. We know he has had access to Grodd, or maybe even that Grodd had access to him. We know he is a time traveler of some sort.

Also lets not forget how quickly he talked Girder into fighting for him rather than the sensible option of just escaping. Definitely thinking he's got some kind of mental manipulation p[ower going

[Pex]

Have to admit, three episodes in a row and Flash kept his shirt on and closed. For once it was actually a female character who had no shirt. Perhaps they aren't going the Tomorrow People route after all.

Speaking of, looks like they are going with Robbie Amell as Firestorm after all. Good for him getting the gig.

[Jayngfet]

Killing doesn't cross the line, if cops are allowed to do it in the course of executing their duties and if their aren't any other alternatives. Special teams are also created, such at SWAT, that are expected to do it.

Except of course there is an alternative. They have a prison right there.

Once things escalate and go public the government will probably build a supermax that they aren't hiding offseas. But until that point jailing them is the most ethical thing to do unless absolutley forced to kill. Which has always been the case for every superhero. Batman gets the luxury of having Arkham right there but every other cape needs a Phantom Zone or Oan Sciencell or what have you to do the same thing.

The normal authorities plain aren't equipped to handle this in any capacity. Hence why every officer of the law "in the know" is forced to admit that crazy people in masks are the better group to handle this than themselves. Because police aren't trained nor armed to fight things like global assassin clans nor men who can turn into iron.

[grolim]

Batman gets the luxury of having Arkham right there but every other cape needs a Phantom Zone or Oan Sciencell or what have you to do the same thing.

Not sure you can call something with a revolving door a luxury. I think most of Gotham would greatly prefer a phantom zone or something. Some Chinese finger traps, gorilla glue, and a paper bag would hold some people longer than Arkham.

[Jayngfet]

Not sure you can call something with a revolving door a luxury. I think most of Gotham would greatly prefer a phantom zone or something. Some Chinese finger traps, gorilla glue, and a paper bag would hold some people longer than Arkham.

And yet, when they're in there for a few weeks Batman officially does not need to deal with them. Unlike a hero running their own outfit, wherein they have to play cop and prison guard.

[Kyberwulf]

Yes, when he doesn't have to deal with them... he has to deal with the ones that had broken out recently. Then while he is dealing with them, the ones he just put in break out. then he has to deal with them. then when he puts them back into Arkham, he has to deal with the ones that just broke out... then while he is dealing with them.. the ones he just put into Arkham have broken out. Sprinkle in some random new baddies, and the common street thugs.. who also manage to break out of jail.

Also, I like how people are talking about the evil doctor, the flash is working with, as if the flash knows he is an evil doctor. Quit metagaming. The flash has every right to not suspect the doctor, from his point of view the doctor seems legit. Just because we are shown what we are shown doesn't mean it's universal knowledge every character on the show knows.

[Marcelinari]

So in regards to today's episode...

Spoiler: Ep: The Man in the Yellow Suit

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What happened with Wells at the end? Are there 2 Yellow Speedsters in play? If so, I thought that the unidentified one got the tachyon gizmo, why does Wells have it? I don't see how Wells could have played both roles in the deception, so there must be multiple Yellow Speedsters. I propose that the unidentified nemesis be called the Reverse Flash (as implied by the episode), and Wells be called Professor Zoom, but I'm looking for confirmation on these. I still don't know how PZ ended up with the tachyon gizmo, either.

[Dragonexx]

Spoiler: Reverse Flash

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Could be some sort of time travel shenanigans. One of them is the present Harrison Wells, one of them is the future Harrison Wells.

[Seerow]

Spoiler: Reverse Flash

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Could be some sort of time travel shenanigans. One of them is the present Harrison Wells, one of them is the future Harrison Wells.

Spoiler

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My take on it was that they were one in the same, with some sort of shenanigans used by Wells to put on a show to put suspicion off of himself and steal the Tachyon thingamabobber simultaneously.

[huttj509]

Spoiler

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My take on it was that they were one in the same, with some sort of shenanigans used by Wells to put on a show to put suspicion off of himself and steal the Tachyon thingamabobber simultaneously.

Spoiler: Comic book science

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Tachyons and Superluminal travel. Combined with comic book science = time travel.

[Pex]

Spoiler

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So far the prediction of Dr. Wells is the Lightning Man who killed Barry's mother holds true. They're also hinting Flash was there as well. Of the "cliff notes" I've read of the comics they appear to be following the comic story with a little poetic license.

Very cool to see Amanda Pays. They even show her picture of her younger days for nostalgia fans to make the connection. This Flash is its own show, as is right and all good, but yeah, "Thanks!" for the shout out.