Pathfinder Metamagic - Worthwhile?

[Extra Anchovies]

I am wondering whether metamagic is useful in Pathfinder. Are there any reducers? Are some of the feats still worth it without the reducers? Empower and Extend both spring to mind as still probably being useful, but I'm not sure.

[137beth]

Dazing spell is nice, because you can attach it to any saving throw you want, so it is really a save-or-die on any save. Also, unlike in 3.5, there is no way to gain immunity to daze in pathfinder.
Persistent spell is decent if you are using spells which allow saving throws.

Rime spell is sort of a dazing spell lite. Although it applies to fewer spells, it is much cheaper.
Still and Silent spells are about as useful as they are in 3.5 (situational).

Other than that, I usually just get a rod of quicken and a few other rods. Metamagic rods are very potent in pathfinder. Ooh, and weapon cords allow you to switch/pull out different metamagic rods more easily, and weapon cords are dirt cheap.

[Snowbluff]

Intensify and the one that trips with force spells are good (Magic Missile for x5 trip?).

You can reduce it by 2 for one spell with traits.

Sacred Geometry gives it for free with some math.

[Psyren]

There are a few reducers in PF but they are typically for a single spell.

Rods are still around so obviously those make any metamagic worthwhile.

[TheMonocleRogue]

There are two traits which can lower the level adjustment by 1 for a spell of your choice(Wayang spellhunter, magical lineage), unfortunately trait bonuses don't stack so you can't pick the same spell.

There's also a feat which gives you free metamagic for a single spell without increasing the level of the spell (spell perfection).

Many DMs that I play with outright ban dazing spell so I would check with your DM to see if they allow it.

[CGNefarious]

There are two traits which can lower the level adjustment by 1 for a spell of your choice(Wayang spellhunter, magical lineage), unfortunately trait bonuses don't stack so you can't pick the same spell.

If I'm not mistaken those traits don't actually give "bonuses" so the benefits would stack.

[avr]

Persistent Spell. It's entirely different from 3.5 - enemies have to make saves twice against your spell and take the lowest - but more accessible at +2 levels and well worth it.

[Raven777]

Sacred Geometry gives it for free with some math.

Sacred Geometry is worth it just to see the look on the DM's face the first time you bring it up.

Tenebrous Spell is cool if you make a Shadow Conjurer / Shadow Evoker, because it's free on those spells.

The two widely use Metamagic reducer Traits are Magical Lineage and Metamagic Master, by the way. Hey, I just learned the later only works on 3rd level spells and lower. Look at that. You learn something new everyday, I guess.

[Hunter Noventa]

Sacred Geometry is worth it just to see the look on the DM's face the first time you bring it up.

Any DM who's ever played Final Fantasy Tactics will just glare at you for it, but damn if I don't want to try it sometime.

[Psyren]

The two widely use Metamagic reducer Traits are Magical Lineage and Metamagic Master, by the way. Hey, I just learned the later only works on 3rd level spells and lower. Look at that. You learn something new everyday, I guess.

MonocleRogue mentioned both of those (Wayang Spellhunter = Metamagic Master).

[Raven777]

But I provided the links

[Killer Angel]

I am wondering whether metamagic is useful in Pathfinder. Are there any reducers? Are some of the feats still worth it without the reducers? Empower and Extend both spring to mind as still probably being useful, but I'm not sure.

Quicken spell is so good that it's worth the price, even without reducers.

[aleucard]

Sacred Geometry is worth it just to see the look on the DM's face the first time you bring it up.

That is the most absurd ****ing feat I have ever seen. I love it, and want to try it some time just for the sheer madness of it. Anything related that would be of use?

[Psyren]

That is the most absurd ****ing feat I have ever seen. I love it, and want to try it some time just for the sheer madness of it. Anything related that would be of use?

Read and weep cheer

[Extra Anchovies]

Read and weep cheer

Oooh, that is the most beautifully horrible feat, I love it
Take it twice for auto-quickened, auto-heightened, auto-echoing, auto-dazing Acid Splash, anyone? Kill two enemy actions for one of yours?

ETA: Now that I've read through the entire thread, I have a new favorite thread.

[Raven777]

Yeah, I had forgotten how much this thread delivered. Thanks for the link Psyren.

[Psyren]

You're both welcome - though if it were up to me, those feats would have been cremated and the ashes interred in a paving slab

[deuxhero]

Pathfinder keeps forgeting metamagic does not actually raise a spell's level (not that 3.5 remembered that often) and there are a lot of things you can abuse from it.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder keeps forgeting metamagic does not actually raise a spell's level (not that 3.5 remembered that often) and there are a lot of things you can abuse from it.

It's a general rule in PF, so they don't have to state it in each individual feat's description. (Except Heighten, obviously.)

[deuxhero]

I had to do something so I cut that post short.

Meant you could abuse a bunch of stuff based on spell level (and not spell slot) such as spellstoring weapons, the Channel the Gift spell and others.

[andreww]

I had to do something so I cut that post short.

Meant you could abuse a bunch of stuff based on spell level (and not spell slot) such as spellstoring weapons, the Channel the Gift spell and others.

This doesn't work anymore, it got FAQ'd out of existence. Essentially you always use the least advantageous level to determine things. So an empowered fireball needs a concentration check as a 5th level spell but sets DC based on 3rd etc.

The three major power metamagic feats are Persistent, Dazing and Quicken. Persistent is better than Heighten in basically every situation and will drastically increase the chance of getting your spells to stick.

Dazing can be attached to spells targeting any save, to area and single target, to spells which deny SR and applies one of the most dangerous conditions in the game. Nothing is immune to daze. You can daze undead and plants (both immune to stun for example). You can daze golems with SR: No spells like Stone Call or Acid Arrow. You can attach daze to spells that do damage round after round and force multiple saves. Dazing wall of fire or blade barrier is basically a death sentence. Rolling a dazing aqueous orb around the battlefield is one of the most hilarious options going.

Quicken is the same as in 3.5 and is a cornerstone of mid and high level spellcaster combat supremacy.

I pretty much try always to have these three. There are several other contenders. A lesser extend rod is 3k and is great for stuff like resist energy and heroism. Reach Spell is strong for clerics and Oracles, especially on stuff like Plane Shift. Elemental Spell can be useful for avoiding resistances or immunities but isn't essential. Intensify and Empower can be combined with a level dip in crossblooded sorcerer to give various oracles, clerics, druids and wizards combat relevant direct damage. Ectoplasmic Spell can be handy to have as a Rod to allow your command undead to avoid the 50% fail chance. Otherwise most of the rest are of dubious benefit.

You also cannot talk about metamagic in PF without mentioning the Staff of the Master Necromancer. It has some irrelevant spells and 10 charges. When you cast a spell you can expend charges from the staff to add a metamagic feat you know to the spell costing a number of charges equal to the level adjustment of the feat. That's right, you can easily quicken your highest level spell at a cost of 4 charges or make it persistent or use whatever other feats you have. It is in effect an incredibly flexible metamagic rod and it only costs 30k.

Finally if you are going to reach level 15 you want to qualify for Spell Perfection. It isn't hard, it involves taking stuff you were getting anyway and gives you free metamagic on a single spell provided the adjusted level doesn't go over 9 as well as doubling feat bonuses. I quite like choosing chain lightning for easy dazing mass control but other options are available. Pick a summon monster and double the benefit of augment summoning and superior summoning. Pick animate dead for a huge increase to caster level from things like spell speicalisation and varisian tattoo. Pick Holy Word and at level 15 you can easily be dropping CL22 holy word spells, 26 with a necklace of prayer beads. It is a stupidly powerful feat and possibly the strongest feat in the game and can effectively turn a spell into an "I WIN" button.

[Raven777]

I like Spell Perfection on a Magical Lineage'd Shadow Evocation, myself, for the sheer flexibility it affords to what you can do on a moment to moment basis. A Perfect Quickened Tenebrous Intensified Fireball + Perfect Dazing Tenebrous Intensified Fireball is not something to be underestimated as a fight opener, especially once boosted by Spell Perfection's multiplicative effect on numerical bonuses like Spell Focus (Illusion) and Greater Spell Focus (Illusion).

Enemy's immune to fire? Next round, throw a Cold Dragon Breath and call it a day, or whip up some Ball Lightning which will keep on giving for the next couple rounds, or Detonate yourself for 1d8/level energy damage (choose which type) with only 20% of the backlash because you can automatically disbelieve your own illusion. Then scream and laugh when the muggles remember why they once were afraid of the dark.

[Kraken]

Is it clear how sacred geometry interacts with spell perfection, rods, magical lineage, and so forth? Geyser abusing builds (and similar) are probably all crying out with joy, this probably gives them a couple extra feats to play with.

[Psyren]

I had to do something so I cut that post short.

Meant you could abuse a bunch of stuff based on spell level (and not spell slot) such as spellstoring weapons, the Channel the Gift spell and others.

This doesn't work anymore, it got FAQ'd out of existence. Essentially you always use the least advantageous level to determine things. So an empowered fireball needs a concentration check as a 5th level spell but sets DC based on 3rd etc.

What andreww said. See here.