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    confused Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    Ok so the basic paladin comes with a written out code of conduct. Was there one written for the variants such as Paladin of Tyranny? If so where and/or what is it.

    I only ask because of player of mine had a situation. He is a LE Favored Soul/Paladin of Tyranny. He got himself elected Mayor of a small rinky dink island village. Since he is an adventurer he is rarely actually around to do any mayoring. He came back from an adventure and finds the town was attacked and people where kidnapped and killed after he promised to protect them. Also, he swore a vow to uphold the laws of this village. Very basic ones since it is a small village. After he finds out about the a town meeting is called and all villagers show up. He chief political rival confronts him on his absence and is stirring up trouble. In the mean time a PC who does not like how the Paladin has been acting goes invisible and Mass suggests a group of villagers to demand a new election for Mayor. They get heated in their demand for it and Our third PC who has been feebleminded but not fixed yet takes the villagers as a threat(his idea, not mine) and slaughters 2 or 3 of them. The crowd scatters, the political rival demands the Paladin put the other PC under arrest for murder since the paladin has sworn to uphold the laws of the town, and the paladin refuses and tries to sick the invisible caster on the political rival, saying he owes bane a debt for bringing him back to life during the last adventure. The caster refuses and the paladin declares that the caster is a traitor and immediately moves to attack him. Luckily the caster escapes, but with the way the group is he is unlikely to be welcomed back. All of this not really his fault so I am not penalizing him if he rerolls which I believe he will do.

    So none of this was really planned, but my question is the Paladin didn't do an act of good, but he did not really follow his alignment so would he lose his paladin abilities till he can be atoned or what would happen to him. (He is in a side story line working to become a chosen of bane.)

    The session ended a little after this so I have at least a week to figure this out. Any thoughts would be helpfull.

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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    A paladin of tyranny must be of lawful evil alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of tyranny's code requires that he respect authority figures as long as they have the strength to rule over the weak, act with discipline (not engaging in random slaughter, keeping firm control over those beneath his station, and so forth), help only those who help him maintain or improve his status, and punish those who challenge authority (unless, of course, such challengers prove more worthy to hold that authority).
    Yep, it's in the SRD right there.

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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    Ah....Bane


    I guess I should start at the beginning here: A worshiper of Bane does not ''get elected mayor''. A worshiper of Bane takes over the government by whatever means they would like. They are...a tyrant. They don't care about laws, other then the laws they make. A tyrant is the law. A tyrant does not ''agree to protect the people'', he ''lets the people live so they can serve him'' and ''keeps them from harm, more or less, so they can continue to serve him''. No one summons a tyrant to a town meeting. After all, the tyrant would(should) just make public gatherings illegal. And tyrants have few 'rivals', but lots of dead enemies.

    Tyrants do whatever they want, and don't care much about others. They rule through force and threats and intimidation.

    So your paladin of tyranny did not act very LE. But not enough to really go for any loss of power or anything. He just sort of foolishly acted like he was a good guy for no reason. Maybe he saw a rainbow or something? He did not really violate his alignment, he just did not follow it.


    The Paladin of Tyranny Code:

    Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful evil alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an good act.

    Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that he deny and undermine legitimate authority, act with derision (lying when possible, cheating to further his cause, using poison when needed, and so forth), ignore those in need (unless they use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and support those who harm or threaten innocents.


    But evil aside.....this is why PC's should not waste time being ''mayor''....
    Last edited by jedipotter; 2014-10-04 at 09:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    From Unearthed Arcana:
    Code of Conduct: A paladin of tyranny must be of lawful evil alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of tyranny’s code requires that he respect authority figures as long as they have the strength to rule over the weak, act with discipline (not engaging in random slaughter, keeping firm control over those beneath his station, and so forth), help only those who help him maintain or improve his status, and punish those who challenge authority (unless, of course, such challengers prove more worthy to hold that authority).

    Associates: While he may adventure with characters of any evil or neutral alignment, a paladin of tyranny will never know- ingly associate with good characters unless it serves his needs, nor will he continue an association with someone who consis- tently offends his moral code. A paladin of tyranny may accept henchmen and followers of any alignment, but may only accept cohorts who are lawful evil.
    And there you have it.

    ETA: Swordsage'd, shoulda read the thread. As for the situation; if he doesn't cede the election he may fall; he's already in dangerous territory as it is. Since he's never there, he's not fit to rule, at least not as fit as his challenger.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2014-10-04 at 09:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Ah....Bane


    I guess I should start at the beginning here: A worshiper of Bane does not ''get elected mayor''. A worshiper of Bane takes over the government by whatever means they would like. They are...a tyrant. They don't care about laws, other then the laws they make. A tyrant is the law. A tyrant does not ''agree to protect the people'', he ''lets the people live so they can serve him'' and ''keeps them from harm, more or less, so they can continue to serve him''. No one summons a tyrant to a town meeting. After all, the tyrant would(should) just make public gatherings illegal. And tyrants have few 'rivals', but lots of dead enemies.

    Tyrants do whatever they want, and don't care much about others. They rule through force and threats and intimidation.

    So your paladin of tyranny did not act very LE. But not enough to really go for any loss of power or anything. He just sort of foolishly acted like he was a good guy for no reason. Maybe he saw a rainbow or something? He did not really violate his alignment, he just did not follow it.


    The Paladin of Tyranny Code:

    Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful evil alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an good act.

    Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that he deny and undermine legitimate authority, act with derision (lying when possible, cheating to further his cause, using poison when needed, and so forth), ignore those in need (unless they use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and support those who harm or threaten innocents.


    But evil aside.....this is why PC's should not waste time being ''mayor''....
    That is the paladin of slaughter's code, which is actually much more restrictive than the tyrant's. You can tell because it says chaotic and evil ends, keyword chaotic.
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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    I would start by sitting down with the player and discussing between the two of you, what you both expected a Paladin of Tyranny's limits would be.

    After that discussion you will be in the best position(all the information and credibility from listening) to decide if the Paladin "falls".

    Personally, I think that you might both agree that the character did not uphold the ideals of a Paladin of Tyranny.

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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    A paladin of tyranny walks into town, slaughters the mayor and the guards, declares himself ruler and levies taxes. When people whine about absentee rulers, taxes, or anything else he declares martial law and executes the whiners for treason.

    Then you raise taxes and go to lunch. That's tyranny.

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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    Thank you for the input. The player in question is quite the rules lawyer. He questions much of what I do as a DM, some of it legitimately other times because things don't go his way. I think it stems from the fact that we have two different DMing styles where I am telling a story for their enjoyment, but their actions in the story have consequences. He runs a game, nothing happens thats not strictly written in rules somewhere. That being said, before I broach this subject with him I want to be able to have rules and such backing my opinion that he did violate his code.

    While I understand that a tyrant does not run for mayor in normal circumstances, he convinced the "mob" he was better for the job. They elected him (a series of diplomacy checks and the like). The only reason he did this was to establish himself for the purpose of making the village his gathering place for his followers from leadership. At the time this occurred election occurred he was about 7th lvl and is currently 14th. The town had people in it that could stand against him then, but now he is so overpowering that they have decided to flee than live under his rule. My only real hang up is the town advising council gave him a set of written laws to review. He signed a document saying he would uphold them and took a vow to do so "to whichever Gods you worship" that he would uphold those laws. In not arresting the other PC for murder (with about 150 witnesses) he is in a sense breaking the law by not upholding his vow.

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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild7309 View Post
    Thank you for the input. The player in question is quite the rules lawyer. He questions much of what I do as a DM, some of it legitimately other times because things don't go his way. I think it stems from the fact that we have two different DMing styles where I am telling a story for their enjoyment, but their actions in the story have consequences. He runs a game, nothing happens thats not strictly written in rules somewhere. That being said, before I broach this subject with him I want to be able to have rules and such backing my opinion that he did violate his code.

    While I understand that a tyrant does not run for mayor in normal circumstances, he convinced the "mob" he was better for the job. They elected him (a series of diplomacy checks and the like). The only reason he did this was to establish himself for the purpose of making the village his gathering place for his followers from leadership. At the time this occurred election occurred he was about 7th lvl and is currently 14th. The town had people in it that could stand against him then, but now he is so overpowering that they have decided to flee than live under his rule. My only real hang up is the town advising council gave him a set of written laws to review. He signed a document saying he would uphold them and took a vow to do so "to whichever Gods you worship" that he would uphold those laws. In not arresting the other PC for murder (with about 150 witnesses) he is in a sense breaking the law by not upholding his vow.
    So, you're going into this with the intention of him violating his code?

    In my opinion, he didn't violate his code of conduct. He punished those who didn't respect his authority, (aka, the caster) and was trying to beat his opponent who wouldn't be a fit mayor. This is the part where he kills the council and rules as a tyrant.
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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    \The Paladin of Tyranny Code:

    Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful evil alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an good act.

    Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that he deny and undermine legitimate authority, act with derision (lying when possible, cheating to further his cause, using poison when needed, and so forth), ignore those in need (unless they use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and support those who harm or threaten innocents. \
    You copy-pasted the wrong section there. That's the Paladin of Slaughter code.

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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    Err, that's not even the Paladin of Slaughter code. The Paladin of Slaughter code is:

    A paladin of slaughter must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of slaughter's code requires that she disrespect all authority figures who have not proven their physical superiority to her, refuse help to those in need, and sow destruction and death at all opportunities.
    He just copy-pasted the normal paladin code, reversed it, and claimed it was the Paladin of Tyranny code.

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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluydee View Post
    So, you're going into this with the intention of him violating his code?

    In my opinion, he didn't violate his code of conduct. He punished those who didn't respect his authority, (aka, the caster) and was trying to beat his opponent who wouldn't be a fit mayor. This is the part where he kills the council and rules as a tyrant.
    No, I don't have the intention of him violating the code, but I feel that if everything is going by the letter according to the rules, the kind of campaign he insists upon, then I want to make sure that it goes both ways. Hence me asking peoples opinions about if they think he violated it. It would seem that the majority do not believe he did. My only concern is a vow he swore and breaking that vow as a paladin, good, evil or otherwise. He is extremely lawful, and the sudden decree to murder another player character because said neutral player wouldn't do his bidding seems more along the lines of chaotic to me. (the OP knew OOG that the caster used the suggestion, but IG had no idea.)

    Those are just my thoughts and concerns.

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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild7309 View Post
    Our third PC... takes the villagers as a threat... and slaughters 2 or 3 of them. The... political rival demands the Paladin put the other PC under arrest for murder since the paladin has sworn to uphold the laws of the town, and the paladin refuses and tries to sick the invisible caster on the political rival. The caster refuses and the paladin declares that the caster is a traitor and immediately moves to attack him.
    So, here is the crux of it. The paladin swore an oath to defend the law, then refused to do so. He ordered the death of a rival and then, in the heat of the moment, tried to murder an ally who refused to support him.

    The transgression here is a failure to act with discipline. Standing by an oath, upholding the law, and refraining from wanton slaughter are all requirements of discipline and undisciplined acts are potentially violations of the code. However, circumstances could excuse him.

    • When he refused to arrest the murderer, why did he refuse? If he refused out of loyalty to his ally or out of a stubborn unwillingness to oblige his political opponent (even though his opponent's demand was correct), then he's violating the code. If he refused because he saw the opponent's demand as some sort of trick outmaneuver attempt designed to steal his position, then he could be excused for taking a stand in order to show that he was not weak, although if he doesn't eventually execute the laws then he would be in violation of the code.
    • When he tried to have his rival killed, why did he do it? If he did it because he was angry or felt boxed into a corner, that's a violation. If he did it in order to maintain control of the town, it could be excusable.
    • When he tried to murder his own ally, was this an ally whom he had clear authority over? If he had authority over the wizard, then he could be defended for the attack on the grounds that he was maintaining discipline among his underlings. However, if the wizard was his equal and was not obliged to obey him, then it looks like he snapped and went murder-death-kill because he was upset over not receiving support. That's a failure of discipline and a code violation.


    I'd say the paladin had a really bad day here. What looks bad is that his actions are all over the map. He's failed to obtain the loyalty and cooperation of his allies, who are either actively trying to bring about his downfall, causing trouble with reckless disregard for him, or are refusing to back him up. He's using violence and murder to solve problems without a clear legal justification, and he's doing it openly where everyone can see him taking the vigilante approach. He is acting like an impulsive, untrustworthy oathbreaker. He doesn't seem to have any kind of plan, and is just thoughtlessly reacting to situations in a way that doesn't demonstrate the values he's supposed to embody.

    Aside from whether he's breached the code or not, I'd also wonder why the paladin would want to travel with his companions any more. One of them tried to get him thrown out of office. Another is a cursed idiot who murdered his townsfolk. The wizard he clearly has no regard for, since he tried to kill him. These people are either his enemies or are completely useless to his goals.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2014-10-05 at 12:04 AM.
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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    People are always so quick to try to get paladins of any type to fall. Ask yourself: would you be putting a cleric of the same god through the same thing? If you would, then it's justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    People are always so quick to try to get paladins of any type to fall. Ask yourself: would you be putting a cleric of the same god through the same thing? If you would, then it's justified.
    Really, when the OP thread asks "should he fall, yes or no", it's hardly surprising that the thread fills up with "yes" and "no" answers. Also, paladins subject themselves to a more rigid standard than do clerics. It's right there in the class description; no one who plays a paladin can claim to be surprised by it. A cleric of Bane can be up to one alignment step away from Bane, and the church can have many factions with different focuses and goals. But a paladin of Tyranny must exemplify Lawful Evil more so even than the typical Lawful Evil person, or else he's no paladin.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2014-10-05 at 12:29 AM.
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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    People are always so quick to try to get paladins of any type to fall. Ask yourself: would you be putting a cleric of the same god through the same thing? If you would, then it's justified.
    I agree with you. There should be a place for imperfect (and thus dishonored/shamed) paladins that have not yet fallen.

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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Really, when the OP thread asks "should he fall, yes or no", it's hardly surprising that the thread fills up with "yes" and "no" answers. Also, paladins subject themselves to a more rigid standard than do clerics. It's right there in the class description; no one who plays a paladin can claim to be surprised by it. A cleric of Bane can be up to one alignment step away from Bane, and the church can have many factions with different focuses and goals. But a paladin of Tyranny must exemplify Lawful Evil more so even than the typical Lawful Evil person, or else he's no paladin.
    Clerics are direct conduits of a god's will. Just because the class description doesn't say "be a **** to this class" doesn't mean they shouldn't uphold the source of their reality changing power. The paladin, on the other hand, gets very little for how much dms tend to force them into "ha guess what sucks for you" situations. It's more of a point of the principle of the thing than directly what the rules say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Fresh and exciting doesn't exist in a game that's almost old enough to drive. Which is why it's extra fun every time someone comes in to say that no, fighters are totally a real character class, because you all missed that one thing or that other one thing and once I saw a fighter beat up a squirrel.

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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    You make a fair point. A step between "fine" and "fallen" would be a great idea. I agree with you that paladin players should not be punished for having the temerity to play a paladin. I play one myself, and I'm appreciative of the fact that the DM doesn't expect me to act Lawful Stupid or Obnoxious Good. But look at the character's behavior in perspective.

    The town mayor has been ignoring his duties for a while now to seek fame and personal fortune, and he's back in town. He refuses to arrest a man who murdered 2+ townsfolk in broad daylight. Seconds later, again in broad daylight in the middle of the town, he orders the death of a community leader who had committed no crime and then attempts to murder with his own hands a comrade who refuses to kill on command. In what sense can this mayor be understood to be upholding the principles of rigid, uncompromising devotion to order and authority? It seems rather that he doesn't give two coppers for the law and acknowledges no power greater than his own whims and desires. He's doing whatever he wants and whatever he thinks he can get away with.

    The PHB says "Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it."

    We don't have all the detail here. It's certainly possible that I'm misreading the situation; I covered a variety of extenuating circumstances that could excuse the player's actions. But given what we know, my take on his behavior is that it was classic Chaotic Evil responses. That's a problem for a tyranny paladin.
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    Default Re: Paladin of Tyranny and code of conduct

    This specific situation I believe would cause both the cleric and paladin to get a very strong word from their deity. For a lawful deity specifically I don't believe that they would cause a fall without sending an envoy to reprimand first. That being said, as with super villains, the leash would be pretty short, and even worse after the first warning. There wouldn't be a second warning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Fresh and exciting doesn't exist in a game that's almost old enough to drive. Which is why it's extra fun every time someone comes in to say that no, fighters are totally a real character class, because you all missed that one thing or that other one thing and once I saw a fighter beat up a squirrel.

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