Playing 4e for the first time

[SaintRidley]

So I'm playing in a 4e game for the first time ever, as a long-time 3.5 player and a quite-enjoying-it 5e player/DM. I've had an idea for a 4e character that I've just never quite had the chance to use. I'm not really used to 4e, so any tips would be much appreciated.

So my character is a Human Swordmage. I want to work in Wizard for Wizard of the Spiral Tower - it just grabs me more than any Swordmage Paragon Path. Right now I'm looking at a 8 12 16 16 10 12 prior to my human racial bonus (toward Int).

I've debated Hybriding Swordmage and Wizard so I can more properly benefit from WotST via actually getting Arcane Implement Mastery. I'm iffy on it, but I'm thinking I can be reasonably convinced of it.

The current plan is taking Arcane Initiate for my level 2 feat and poaching some Wizard powers that way. It leaves me a stronger defender, what with full access to Aegis of Assault, leather armor, and Swordmage Warding right away.

Any thoughts?

Should I hybrid? Should I feat multiclass and just accept that I won't be able to benefit as fully from WotST? Hybrid could work out, I think, since I'd only need to do two Hybrid Talents and Ritual Caster to catch myself up to what I want to get, which isn't bad.

Improved Defenses and War Wizard's Expertise are online for free as math fixes. I'm definitely married to Intelligent Blademaster for one level 1 feat, and I'm certain I want to take Student of Sword Magic (primarily role-playing reasons), but I could maybe delay that feat if necessary if I hybrid multiclass in favor of taking a Hybrid Talent at first level to get my Swordmage Warding or my Arcane Implement Mastery (thoughts on implement choice? Staff of Defense makes some sense and I might be able to delay Hybrid Talent for Swordmage Warding until Paragon tier then).

Anyone able to help me sort out thoughts?


Books I have access to include the PHBs (PHB 2 if I borrow it), Arcane Power, and the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide. That's pretty much all I have access to, having mostly skipped 4e in the past.

[NecroRebel]

So my character is a Human Swordmage. I want to work in Wizard for Wizard of the Spiral Tower - it just grabs me more than any Swordmage Paragon Path. Right now I'm looking at a 8 12 16 16 10 12 prior to my human racial bonus (toward Int).

What about it grabs you more than the Swordmage PPs? If it's only the fluff, note that fluff is infinitely mutable, and refluffing is encouraged in 4e quite a bit. Wizard of the Spiral Tower is quite crappy for a Swordmage, as you can already use longswords as implements natively, the action point feature won't help you at all unless you've invested quite heavily in it, you won't have much Charisma to speak of so the L16 feature is crap, and your immediate actions will likely be better spent on your Aegis so the utility power will rarely be helpful. Practically speaking, nearly anything will be better.

I've debated Hybriding Swordmage and Wizard so I can more properly benefit from WotST via actually getting Arcane Implement Mastery. I'm iffy on it, but I'm thinking I can be reasonably convinced of it.

While Swordmages and Wizards hybridize quite well, it's typically best to avoid hybridizing until you're quite a bit more experienced with the game than you claim to be. It's one of the few ways to truly screw yourself over in 4e.

The current plan is taking Arcane Initiate for my level 2 feat and poaching some Wizard powers that way. It leaves me a stronger defender, what with full access to Aegis of Assault, leather armor, and Swordmage Warding right away.

Any thoughts?

Arcane Initiate isn't going to do much for you. There's not terribly much you gain from having a Wizard at-will 1/encounter, and you've already got Arcana trained. If you're going to MC Wizard and have the 13 Wis for it, the Learned Spellcaster feat from Arcane Power is a better choice - it gives a choice of knowledge-type skills and Ritual Caster.

Also note that you can't just poach Wizard powers just because you multiclassed. You need other feats to actually pick powers from your MC'ed class, which generally aren't worth it.

Should I hybrid?

Probably not.

Should I feat multiclass and just accept that I won't be able to benefit as fully from WotST?

Probably, with the caveat that you probably won't benefit at all from WotST (because you almost certainly shouldn't be taking that PP).

Hybrid could work out, I think, since I'd only need to do two Hybrid Talents and Ritual Caster to catch myself up to what I want to get, which isn't bad.

Note that you can't take two Hybrid Talents unless you paragon hybridize, which I don't think I've ever seen used.

Improved Defenses and War Wizard's Expertise are online for free as math fixes.

Quite nice, both. The Expertise feat saves you from needing one, and Improved Defenses is basically a bonus feat.

I'm definitely married to Intelligent Blademaster for one level 1 feat, and I'm certain I want to take Student of Sword Magic (primarily role-playing reasons), but I could maybe delay that feat if necessary if I hybrid multiclass in favor of taking a Hybrid Talent at first level to get my Swordmage Warding or my Arcane Implement Mastery (thoughts on implement choice? Staff of Defense makes some sense and I might be able to delay Hybrid Talent for Swordmage Warding until Paragon tier then).

Anyone able to help me sort out thoughts?

Intelligent Blademaster... It's far more important for Assault Swordmages than Shielding Swordmages, though it's certainly nice for both. Student of Sword Magic is generally for flavor alone anyway. Making those your first two feats is just fine. Once again, I'd suggest not hybridizing and just being a Swordmage who later multiclasses to Wizard. I'd probably start with a 12 in Wis unless you mean to go into Wandering Swordmage as your PP, put off the MC until level 11, and then take Learned Spellcaster - rituals are of very limited utility at every level, but they're really limited prior to paragon tier when the really low-level stuff is cheap enough to practically ignore the cost of it.

If you do hybrid, practically speaking your Hybrid Talent must be Swordmage Warding if you expect to be a Defender, because otherwise your AC will be terribly low. Cloth armor doesn't make for a good Defender, even with an Int or Dex primary. You'll also probably want to pick up leather armor proficiency, as even with Warding and an Int primary your AC will still be very low for a Defender. Most Wizard|Swordmage characters are built to be more durable Controllers than more controllery Defenders because you have to spend so much to get Defender-tier AC with one.

[SaintRidley]

You bring up good points. Didn't realize Hybrid Talent was a one only deal - that's pretty much the nail in the coffin of the hybrid idea.

I don't know what it is about WotST that grabs me. I just remember thinking that it was the coolest looking thing in the book when I got the PHB six years ago and must have just kind of subconsciously fixated on it. I'm also trying, with 5e, to break out of the mandatory multiclassing habit I picked up from 3.5 - and I suppose I should just buck up the confidence in my ability to refluff and just single-class some Swordmage (maybe taking Learned Spellcaster in Paragon - I hadn't noticed that option) and figure out a good set of abilities from a Swordmage paragon path.

I think I grabbed onto the wizard thing because I have this idea of a Swordmage who has her grandfather's spellbook and uses his spells as inspiration for her own, and I was somewhat interested in having her crib a few of his spells directly. Learned Spellcaster might be good enough for that, though, with the rituals.

So maybe I'll go with 8 12 16 16 12 10 (+2 Int for race), so I can get Dex and Wis to 13 at level 11. Then I can grab Improved Swordmage Warding and Learned Spellcaster. I'd rather have strength be my 8 than charisma for her, due to her noble background.

[Kurald Galain]

So I'm playing in a 4e game for the first time ever ... I've debated Hybriding

When you're playing for the first time, I strongly recommend you do not play a hybrid. Most hybrid combinations are noticeably weaker than either class would be by itself, and hybrids require more system mastery to get to work than most first-time players have.

I should point out that the swordmage class is basically a WOTST already, right from level 1 (the paragon path was printed about a year earlier than the class, so back then WOTST was the only way to play a sword-caster, but now it's not). Mechanically speaking, though, WOTST is pretty weak, and Swordmage is pretty strong.

HTH!

[dariathalon]

So maybe I'll go with 8 12 16 16 12 10 (+2 Int for race), so I can get Dex and Wis to 13 at level 11. Then I can grab Improved Swordmage Warding and Learned Spellcaster. I'd rather have strength be my 8 than charisma for her, due to her noble background.

I don't have tons of time right now to comment on the character idea, but I will point out this quick thing. The order of stats has changed between 3.5 and 4e. What you wrote here leads me to believe that you are still using the old 3.5 stat order. Do you mean

Str 8
Con 12
Dex 16
Int 16 (+2)
Wis 12
Cha 10

or

Str 8
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 16 (+2)
Wis 12
Cha 10

Either can work, but it may change some of the advice you get.

[Tegu8788]

Supporting what everyone else has said, only one hybrid talent, despite this being a good combo hybrids are difficult to pull off for your first build, Swordmage is a perfect sword caster if you like being tough, and those stats could use some work. Normally stats are point buy, not rolled, but if you can move them, that would be real useful. Int is obviously your main stat, and you can safely dump Cha, Dex, and Wis. Str or Con is an important secondary. The rest is whatever you want.

[Yakk]

Sigil Carver is by far the funnest paragon path, especially if you can slide with your MBA.

Improved Defenses and War Wizard's Expertise are online for free as math fixes.

There is a paragon swordmage feat that grants +1 feat bonus to all defences (AC and Non-AC) when your Ward is up. Ask if you can swap Improved Defences for Superior Will or that one.

Because what you want is Superior Will and that one (for +3 Will, +1 AC, +1 Fort, +1 Reflex for 2 feats).

(Keep War Wizard's Expertise)

A PP that is easier to have fun with is the ... something something jannisarry. It grants +1d4 elemental damage on your attacks (at level 16 I think?), which opens you up to doing elemental damage builds (like frostcheese) without being tied to a particular weapon enchantment.

I agree with avoiding hybriding, but if you do the only cost is 1 feat for your ward, 1 feat for leather armor proficiency, and an aegis that you cannot "move" to a better target at-will. In exchange, you gain access to the ability to cherry pick wizard daily powers (which are quite often ridiculously good), as well as encounter/utility/at-wills.

If you are really worried about that, double aegis (paragon feat) lets you apply it to 2 targets, and the aegis recharges when either drops, and at epic there is a feat that lets you apply your aegis to every target in range (and again, it recharges when any one of them drops).

It takes some effort to prevent swordmage attacks from becoming wiffle-bats by paragon, so don't be afraid to optimize for damage.

[SaintRidley]

I don't have tons of time right now to comment on the character idea, but I will point out this quick thing. The order of stats has changed between 3.5 and 4e. What you wrote here leads me to believe that you are still using the old 3.5 stat order. Do you mean

Str 8
Con 12
Dex 16
Int 16 (+2)
Wis 12
Cha 10

or

Str 8
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 16 (+2)
Wis 12
Cha 10

Either can work, but it may change some of the advice you get.

The second. Forgot that 4e switched the order. Dex isn't getting any more investment than absolutely necessary. Strength looks like something I can avoid using, honestly. And this is a point buy array, Tegu.

[Dimers]

I agree with avoiding hybriding, but if you do the only cost is 1 feat for your ward, 1 feat for leather armor proficiency, and an aegis that you cannot "move" to a better target at-will.

And max hit points ... and surges per day ... and skills trained ... and simplicity/focus of build progression ...

In exchange, you gain access to the ability to cherry pick wizard daily powers (which are quite often ridiculously good), as well as encounter/utility/at-wills.

Wizard powers and feats are awfully nice.

I'm also trying, with 5e, to break out of the mandatory multiclassing habit I picked up from 3.5 ...

I like that habit! I like it just as much in 4e as I did in 3.X. Multiclass feats are often good choices in 4e for both characterization and effectiveness.

[Tegu8788]

Point buy is a more balanced system, where your stats start all a 10 and one at 8. You then get a certain number of points to buy your stats, the higher the number the more it costs. You've actually got better stats than point buy would give, so I wouldn't bring it up if the DM is happy. You can find point buy calculators online, I'm at a work lunch and can't get the specifics right now.

[Epinephrine]

You've actually got better stats than point buy would give, so I wouldn't bring it up if the DM is happy.

No, that's a point buy spread. It's one of the basic distributions. 16, 16, 12, 12, 10, 8 is equivalent to the 16, 16, 13, 11, 10, 8 you often see. The 12, 12 version is better for getting bonuses to attributes, but is less useful for qualifying for feats, since many require a 13.

[Geoff]

I don't know what it is about WotST that grabs me. I just remember thinking that it was the coolest looking thing in the book when I got the PHB six years ago and must have just kind of subconsciously fixated on it. I suppose I should just buck up the confidence in my ability to refluff and just single-class some Swordmage (maybe taking Learned Spellcaster in Paragon - I hadn't noticed that option) and figure out a good set of abilities from a Swordmage paragon path.

You could also do a single-class Eladrin wizard and be able to use a sword from the beginning, easily transitioning into WotST. There's a feat you can take at low level to use the sword as an implement (counting it as a wand), when you go WotST, you can take a feat for a second implement mastery and have the Correllon's implement feature use it - you end up with a Sword that's a Sword, a Wand, and one other type of implement of your choice.

I'm also trying, with 5e, to break out of the mandatory multiclassing habit I picked up from 3.5

Since 5e uses the same kind of cool multiclassing as 3.5, why not embrace it? Conversely, embrace the single-classed character for 4e, where there's plenty of customization available just within each class. You can also get some MC feel from Paths like WotST or (in the opposite directions) Themes like Wizard's Apprentice. (Hybriding is more like old-school MCing, where the two classes 'average out,' only way more complicated, as others have said, only worth it if you're a mad system master.)

I think I grabbed onto the wizard thing because I have this idea of a Swordmage who has her grandfather's spellbook and uses his spells as inspiration for her own, and I was somewhat interested in having her crib a few of his spells directly. Learned Spellcaster might be good enough for that, though, with the rituals.

Ritual Caster would let you make good use of a spellbook (which is also a ritual book), by itself, and some classic spells exist only as rituals in 4e.

[SaintRidley]

Point buy is a more balanced system, where your stats start all a 10 and one at 8. You then get a certain number of points to buy your stats, the higher the number the more it costs. You've actually got better stats than point buy would give, so I wouldn't bring it up if the DM is happy. You can find point buy calculators online, I'm at a work lunch and can't get the specifics right now.

I know what point buy is and how it works. My array is 22 points: 2 for each 12 and 9 for each 16: 22 points. Now I'd kindly ask you to stop implying I can't do basic addition. As epinephrine pointed out, it gets me some bonuses to attributes right now - plus when I hit Paragon it'll bump two up to 13 immediately and qualify me for some feats I'll be wanting.

I'm leaning on Necrorebel's suggestions, I think, and waiting to grab my wizard multiclass until Paragon with Learned Spellcaster, which will get me rituals, another trained skill, and let me delay the rituals a bit longer (I want her to take her time figuring things out).

[Epinephrine]

I know what point buy is and how it works. My array is 22 points: 2 for each 12 and 9 for each 16: 22 points. Now I'd kindly ask you to stop implying I can't do basic addition. As epinephrine pointed out, it gets me some bonuses to attributes right now - plus when I hit Paragon it'll bump two up to 13 immediately and qualify me for some feats I'll be wanting.

FTFY

The only issue you might run into taking the 12s is that while you will have 13s in paragon, you'll never hit 15s - so you may want to look ahead to ensure you aren't setting yourself up not to meet some feat prerequisites in Epic (Wizard Implement Expertise comes to mind as needing a pair of 15s).