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Thread: Stunning Irruption
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2014-10-09, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Stunning Irruption
Who said anyone else was there? They could be enjoying it on their own, and suddenly a CR: 13 demon teleports in and the fighter says "Be with you in a moment". Then an 8th level paladin kicks the door down and suddenly he has to make a save or be stunned. If they also damage by flying debris, then I can sort of get how that happened, but it is a lot harder without the damage.
And they are a high level martial character. If they want to eat a wooden stake they bloody well can!Last edited by Boci; 2014-10-09 at 11:56 AM.
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2014-10-09, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
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- Seattle
- Gender
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2014-10-09, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Stunning Irruption
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2014-10-09, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
- Location
- Seattle
- Gender
Re: Stunning Irruption
As I discussed earlier, real life would disagree with you, and the game actually does too. Phantasmal killer is a great example. It's a Will save to determine whether you believe it's real or not, but a Fortitude save to stop you from dying in fright when you believe it is real. It's the intense physical reaction to something frightening and unexpected that kills you. There's no Will save involved in Stunning Irruption because it's really, for real, happening, so you get a Fortitude save to deal with the sudden shock of that intense eruption of noise and violence.
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2014-10-09, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Stunning Irruption
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2014-10-09, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2012
- Location
- Necro-equestrian Pugilism
- Gender
Re: Stunning Irruption
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2014-10-09, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Stunning Irruption
Last edited by Boci; 2014-10-09 at 12:15 PM.
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2014-10-09, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2012
- Location
- Necro-equestrian Pugilism
- Gender
Re: Stunning Irruption
Probably not the best spell to go with as your example then. There are tons of spells that would back up your point better, like Color Spray (will save or be stunned).
Of course, I'm fairly certain there are a few stunning spells that require Fort saves, so I'm not sure this route is all that definitive.
*shrug* But like I said earlier, a person doesn't have to have solid reasoning for their opinion (I have a hatred for the BoED diplomacy rules), just acknowledge it and make your players aware of it.Last edited by Deadline; 2014-10-09 at 12:22 PM.
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2014-10-09, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Stunning Irruption
I wasn't the one who brought it up, besides PK deals lethal damage, the damage I assigned to SI was non-lethal to reflects its nature.
How many don't don't deal damage? Besides, I already said I allow magic to get away with more, because its magic, and thus has less to tie it to reality. Its martial and magic being balanced that concerns me.
But I do feel I have solid reasoning for my opinions, solid reasoning that has stood up to the many attempts to explain why it is wrong. Other people don't have to see things this way, but I do.Last edited by Boci; 2014-10-09 at 12:26 PM.
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2014-10-09, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Location
- Dominion of Canadia
Re: Stunning Irruption
The Will save on Phantasmal Killer is for realizing it's an illusion. That's why you are 100% fine if you pass the Will save : because you know the thing is not real and just ignore it. But if you fail and believe it, then the shock of your worst nightmare popping in your face requires a Fortitude save to be survived.
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2014-10-09, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Stunning Irruption
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2014-10-09, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
- Location
- Seattle
- Gender
Re: Stunning Irruption
Shock great enough to kill you does a small amount of physical damage if it fails. I don't think anyone is claiming that a healthy adult is taking enough shock to kill them when someone bursts through the wall, just enough to activate their flight or fight response and force an unwilling biological reaction (i.e. stun or shaken). Power word stun, while not allowing a save, still goes off your general health and wellness; your hit point total determines whether or not you can be affected (making it more similar to a Fortitude save than anything else, as no amount of willpower changes the results), and the effect itself deals no damage. Stunning finale "assaults the senses" forcing the target to make a Fortitude save or be stunned but deals no damage (possibly the best comparison). The vrock's Stunning Screech is a loud and sudden noise that forces all creatures to make a Fortitude save or be stunned, but does not deal any type of damage.
So, a little digging around shows that saves vs. stunning are almost always Fortitude saves, and there's at least two examples of abilities where sudden, loud effects can stun a target who fails a Fortitude save while not otherwise dealing any damage at all.
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2014-10-09, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
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Re: Stunning Irruption
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2014-10-09, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Stunning Irruption
I did a little digging as well. Here is what I cam up with (I did find and note stunning finale, but you've already mentioned that).
Colour spray, Scintillating pattern, Stunning Barrier, Symbol of Stunning, Power Word: Stun, Waves of Ecstasy, Word of Chaos, = no damage, but doesn’t involve a fort save (either will save or no save).
Kai shout, Shout, Resonating Word, Sound Burst, Daze spell, = fort save, but also deals damage.
Massive damage system shock, Phantasmal killer = Fortitude save to avoid shock, but all involve taking damage. They also all kill you however.
So, that vs. the two. From this we can establish that in all likelihood, fort save stunning with no damage is an exception to the rules. There could be more exception we didn't fiend, but in there absence this is the likely conclusion.
So, you then need to ask yourself, what would you prefer?
Having another options that breaks a loosely established formula?
Add a small amount of damage to SI?
Is one answer more right than the other? Hell no, unless RAW is a particular consideration and you would like to avoid even small tweaks to it.
I consider a powerful demon suddenly being there to be about on par with someone kicking the door down.Last edited by Boci; 2014-10-09 at 12:55 PM.
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2014-10-09, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Gender
Re: Stunning Irruption
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2014-10-09, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Stunning Irruption
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2014-10-09, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
- Location
- Seattle
- Gender
Re: Stunning Irruption
Originally Posted by Boci
So, yeah, one answer is more right than the other. Mine is literally the RAW of the Paizo staff who currently own and design the game, yours is a house-rule by a guy who claimed he researched something and still didn't know how it worked. That comes off a little mean, and I don't mean it to, but I literally don't know a nicer way of saying it.Last edited by Ssalarn; 2014-10-09 at 01:22 PM.
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2014-10-09, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Stunning Irruption
Why? That still supports the trend that damageless stun is not a fort save thing.
I meant the MM feat, which requires the spell to deal damage. I mean to delete it though because it daze, not stun.
How is that relevant? I meant to delete it because it dazes, it doesn't stun, but if we are includingit it deals no damage and has a will save, so falls into the formula I pointed out.
Or your attempts to dismiss my argument is very weak.
Yo arrogantly dismiss the opinion of someone who disagrees with you for questionable objections to their logic and fall back on an appeal to authority by implying Paizo's ownership of the IP somehow exempts them from the small mistakes, like the one I believe they made in the mechanics of this feat. I'm starting to wonder if you truely think your answer is better, or if you are just desperate to get me, and anyone who agreed I had a point, to admit I'm wrong for some unknown and pointless reasons.Last edited by Boci; 2014-10-09 at 01:27 PM.
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2014-10-09, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
- Location
- Seattle
- Gender
Re: Stunning Irruption
Nope, just pointing out that your arguments are full of holes. And I wasn't appealing to authority. You said "Is one answer more right than the other? Hell no, unless RAW is a particular consideration", to which my response was that when talking about mechanics RAW certainly should be a consideration, especially when you're making illogical and unnecessary tweaks that result in muddled mechanics and peddling them as equivalent to the work of professional game designers.
{{scrubbed}}Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2014-10-09 at 04:00 PM.
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2014-10-09, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
Re: Stunning Irruption
... So, does this mean we're not making "Stunning Eructation" next?
My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.
Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.
My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!
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2014-10-09, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Stunning Irruption
Sure, that statement above applies to me with my "Here's my opinion, but you're not wrong if you disagree" and not you with you "You are wrong, here is why. Sorry if this insults you, but I cannot possibly avoid that". Hi pot, I'm kettle.
I can agree however that it is best we stop this, whilst debating opinions can be productive (its what made me realize what precisely about this feat I disliked), there is far too much bile between us for it being worthy on continuation.
Stunning Eructation
Preq: Base fort save: +2
Benefit: As a move equivalent action you can unleash a powerful eructation in a 30ft cone. All creatures caught in the area must succeed on a fortitude save or be nauseated for 1d4 rounds. If your last meal was particularly foul, this saving throw is made at a -4 penalty. You can use this ability at will, but if you use it a second time in the same encounter the range of the con drops to 15ft, any meal bonuses are lost and effected creatures get a +4 bonus to their save, as you now lack the element of surprise.Last edited by Boci; 2014-10-09 at 02:24 PM.
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2014-10-09, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Gender
Re: Stunning Irruption
Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2014-10-09 at 04:00 PM.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2014-10-09, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2014
Re: Stunning Irruption
{Scrubbed}
Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2014-10-09 at 09:03 PM.
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2014-10-09, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.
Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.
My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!
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2014-10-09, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Stunning Irruption
Thank you. See everyone, I can be fun if I choose to be. Now just to prove how limited that aspect of my being is...I deigned that feat really badly. Giving PCs, or NPCs, a chance to debuff instead of moving will turn a lot of fights into static exchanges, so it should be avoided. On the other hand, I think you should be able to belch and attack in the same round. It should probably become a standard action for subsequent uses, in addition to the other reductions. Maybe also add in a 1d4 round cool down. Alternatively leave it as is, but add that it can only be used after a hearty, rich meal. Either way should be fine.
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself