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    Default New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    I like paladins a lot. I also like skillful, subtle, dexterous characters a lot. So here's my whack at combining the two. Any input is welcome! I'm still very shaky on balance in Next, and I would particularly love ideas for good spells.

    Oath of Seeking
    Paladins who take the Oath of Seeking are among the most rarely seen - not only because they are fewer in number than other paladins, but also because it is in their calling to remain unnoticed. While other paladins follow evil into the darkest pits, these lone souls hunt it down where it hides in the light. It is their task to discover and depose the tyrant who poses as a benevolent king, and to do so without causing even an hour's chaos in the society he rules or the political circles that protect him. Some call them Gray Guards, others assassins, but they know themselves only as Seekers of the truth and followers of the Light.

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    Tenets of Seeking
    Five constant principles guide paladins of this oath.

    Knowledge. Learn all that you can about all that you can. You never know what lore, skill or secret will someday save a life.
    Discretion. Evil gains power through fear and chaos. It is most wholly defeated when no one even knows it was there.
    Flexibility. Always be prepared to work with the tools you have; no ally, no strategy, and no weapon is the wrong one if it helps bring an end to a great evil.
    Humility. Remember that you, too, can be tempted, misled and mistaken. Always be on guard against pride or rash decisions and have compassion for those who have lost their own way.
    Service. Your skills and wisdom are not your own to hoard; they belong to the innocents you protect. Never turn your back on those in need, nor withhold aid from the victims of evil.

    Oath of Seeking Spells
    3rd : Silent Image, Longstrider
    5th : Alter Self, Zone of Truth
    9th : Nondetection, Hypnotic Pattern
    13th : Arcane Eye, Freedom of Movement
    17th : Mislead, Passwall

    Holy Range
    If you have taken this oath, any paladin spell or class feature that affects only melee weapons (such as Branding Smite or Improved Divine Smite) can also affect any ranged weapon you wield, provided your target is within short range and you are not wearing heavy armor.

    Channel Divinity
    When you take this oath at 3rd level, you gain the following two Channel Divinity options.

    Sacred Subtlety. As an action, you cloak yourself in an aura of divine energy that makes you difficult to pay attention to. Any creature that can sense you must make a Wisdom save; on a failed save, it is no more aware of you than it is of a branch across the path. It will move aside for you, acknowledge you if you're pointed out to it, or even absently answer if you engage it in conversation, but it cannot perceive you as an object of interest or threat and will remember only the barest details of any interaction with you later. This effect persists for a number of minutes equal to 1+your Charisma modifier, or until you either end it as a free action or attack a creature or its allies.

    You cannot use Sacred Subtlety if you are wearing heavy armor.

    Blessing of Skill. As an action, choose one tool, skill, or weapon (including improvised weapons or unarmed attacks). For ten minutes, you are proficient with that tool, skill or weapon.

    Aura of Insight
    Starting at 7th level, you and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you gain a bonus equal to 1/2 your proficiency bonus on checks with a single skill or tool you designate. You can change the affected skill or tool during a short or long rest.

    At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.

    Purity of Vision
    Beginning at 15th level, you may use your Channel Divinity feature twice before taking a short or long rest. You can also use it to create the following new effect:

    Purity of Vision. As an action, you gain 60ft Truesight for a number of rounds equal to 1+your Charisma modifier.

    Sacred Shadow
    At 20th level, as an action, you can cloak yourself in an impenetrable shadow. For one minute, you are considered totally obscured to all creatures, regardless of their senses. In addition, you cannot be deceived during this effect, and automatically succeed on any Insight or Perception checks against Deception, Stealth, or similar skill attempts by other creatures. Finally, while this effect lasts, any time you deal radiant damage, you deal extra radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

    Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest. You can't use Sacred Shadow while wearing heavy armor.

    Thanks for reading this far. Questions, comments, and criticism are welcome!

    Edit 1: Changed "concealment" to "obscured."
    Edit 2: More fixing of 3rd editionism, added small damage boost to Sacred Shadow, toned down Aura of Insight.
    Edit 3: Slight revision to Sacred Shadow damage boost, formatting, new spells.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Overall you have a great subclass but there are a couple of issues I wish to address.
    1. Your are Aura of Insight will likely add a +5 to all skill checks and tool kits. This is a large sweeping boost making this feature better than any base skill feature.
    2. Concealment doesn't exist in 5e, so you are going to have to either explain or change it. Also oaths tend to turn them into an avatar of sorts so a list of thins, including something offensive would be appropriate.

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Oh right, concealment is "obscured" now. I'll fix that. I figured it was almost too powerful in combat already, since that makes you essentially invisible and able to hide whenever.

    If the aura is too potent, what would be better? Some kind of small flat bonus doesn't seem consistent with the rest of the game. I could go with the half-Charisma of 4e but I never liked the way that made 18s so much more valuable than 16s.

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    Oh right, concealment is "obscured" now. I'll fix that. I figured it was almost too powerful in combat already, since that makes you essentially invisible and able to hide whenever.
    While we're on the subject of pedantic nitpicks, Bluff would be opposed by Insight, not Perception. (It's clear what you mean, but might as well make the language more consistent, right?)

    EDIT: Also, in 5e, it's "Deception", not "Bluff", for what little that's worth.

    If the aura is too potent, what would be better? Some kind of small flat bonus doesn't seem consistent with the rest of the game. I could go with the half-Charisma of 4e but I never liked the way that made 18s so much more valuable than 16s.
    Maybe just have it apply to one particular kind of check? Either the Paladin's choice or the beneficiary's choice (the latter might still be a little OP, but at least it your Rogue friend would have to choose whether he wants your help being stealthy or picking the lock).
    Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2014-10-08 at 10:48 PM.

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    Oh right, concealment is "obscured" now. I'll fix that. I figured it was almost too powerful in combat already, since that makes you essentially invisible and able to hide whenever.

    If the aura is too potent, what would be better? Some kind of small flat bonus doesn't seem consistent with the rest of the game. I could go with the half-Charisma of 4e but I never liked the way that made 18s so much more valuable than 16s.
    1. You also need to list a duration and a little more offense wouldn't hurt.
    2. Just make it so that it applies to any one skill check a round. This way it still has that skill monkey like feel but it isn't so overwhelming during battle so that you can succeed against everyone.

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Or:
    Starting at 7th level, once per round as a bonus action on your turn or as a reaction on someone else's turn, you can designate one friendly creature within 10 feet of you to gain advantage on one ability check or tool check.

    At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.
    I still think it's overpowered, but that makes it slightly less so.
    Last edited by Shadow; 2014-10-10 at 01:46 AM.

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Or:


    I still think it's overpowered, but that makes it slightly less so.
    It's a bit of a departure from the PHB Auras, only because those tend to be passive, constant, and apply to everyone within range. To my way of thinking, it'd be better to stick to that model, even if it means scaling the Aura's benefits back to, say, Stealth and Deception (or even just Stealth). That said, I understand the author's desire for versatility, so I think letting the Paladin designate one skill or tool for the bonus, requiring a short (or should it be long?) rest to change.

    Still, it's not my homebrew so it's up to the OP to decide which is best.

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    So I was reading the PHB to check out spells and discovered that partial Proficiency bonuses are a thing, so I slapped that on Aura of Insight, along with cutting it down to one skill or tool at a time as the consensus seems to be, which hopefully will tone it down enough to be reasonable but still allow for stuff like "let the fighter sneak with us" and "everybody climb this cliff," which was my main goal in designing the aura. If it's still too much I could knock it down more to only change the target with an action or a short rest.

    Also added a slight offensive boost to Sacred Shadow as per Amnoriath's suggestion, and fixed some more wording issues (thanks Grey Watcher).
    Last edited by Sindeloke; 2014-10-10 at 05:42 PM.

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    which hopefully will tone it down enough to be reasonable but still allow for stuff like "let the fighter sneak with us" and "everybody climb this cliff," which was my main goal in designing the aura.
    If that was your main goal in designing the aura, then the aura itself is redundant.

    Group Checks, page 175:
    When a number of individuals are trying to accomplish something as a group, the DM might ask for a group ability check. In such a situation, the characters who are skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren't. To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails.
    Group checks don’t come up very often, and they’re most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group. For example, when adventurers are navigating a swamp, the DM might call for a group Wisdom (Survival) check to see if the characters can avoid the quicksand, sinkholes, and other natural hazards of the environment. If at least half the group succeeds, the successful characters are able to guide their companions out of danger. Otherwise, the group stumbles into one of these hazards.

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Group checks only help if at least half the group is going to pass them, and if everyone has the ability to help each other. If everyone's making Athletics checks to stay on a cliff while harpies try to rip them away and throw them to their death, or if the rogue is the only one in the party with Stealth, or absolutely nobody in the group happened to pick up Acrobatics and now they've all got to get across a narrow beam, what then?

    At best, the party can do a group check with the aura bonus and increase their chances of passing. At worst, the fighter trying to swim upriver in full plate while a crocodile snaps at his heels is 5-15% less likely to get swept away despite the fact that no one else is in range to grab him.

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post

    Edit 1: Changed "concealment" to "obscured."
    Edit 2: More fixing of 3rd editionism, added small damage boost to Sacred Shadow, toned down Aura of Insight.
    Much better, still a little odd that the damage boost only applies to spells but many involve an attack so it isn't that off the wall. You may though want to fix the last sentence on the Service tenet as it says: "Always answer the call to protect and aid those in the path of evil." I know you mean those who wish to join you, but it sounds a little off and contradictory. Otherwise, you have a very well-round oath that has its own unique flavor and it should fit in very well with any one who wishes to take it up.

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Kay, I adjusted some wording and tweaked Sacred Shadow again as per Amnoriath's suggestions, and nerfed the Insight Aura down again per Gray Watcher's. I also finally finished the spell list, which I'm still totally dubious about.

    Thanks to everyone so far for all the feedback

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    Group checks only help if at least half the group is going to pass them, and if everyone has the ability to help each other. If everyone's making Athletics checks to stay on a cliff while harpies try to rip them away and throw them to their death, or if the rogue is the only one in the party with Stealth, or absolutely nobody in the group happened to pick up Acrobatics and now they've all got to get across a narrow beam, what then?

    At best, the party can do a group check with the aura bonus and increase their chances of passing. At worst, the fighter trying to swim upriver in full plate while a crocodile snaps at his heels is 5-15% less likely to get swept away despite the fact that no one else is in range to grab him.
    Hey mate, really like the subclass idea. On the aura, why not just make it a bard jack of all trades aura? Add half proficiency to all skills you and those in aura aren't already proficient with, that way it's just always "on" with no changing around, sticks to the same as other pally aura design and helps party be better at what they're already not good at. Anyways, Ima use this subclass for my players, great concept, reminds me of Shadowbane inquisitor from 3.5 just more subtle. Great work ;)

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Commenting mainly for subscription, but also so I can say I really like the class idea. It's a simple enough take on the old 'Inquisitor' archetype, without the addition of an entire new base class.

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Thanks guys, glad this is resonating with people!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Dragon View Post
    Hey mate, really like the subclass idea. On the aura, why not just make it a bard jack of all trades aura? Add half proficiency to all skills you and those in aura aren't already proficient with, that way it's just always "on" with no changing around, sticks to the same as other pally aura design and helps party be better at what they're already not good at.
    Hmn. I really like the simplicity, but I'd feel a bit weird about totally one-upping one of the bard's class features, and then the bard herself gains nothing from standing in the pally's aura. Something to ponder, though, thanks!

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    Default Re: New Paladin subclass: Oath of Seeking (rogueadin)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    Thanks guys, glad this is resonating with people!



    Hmn. I really like the simplicity, but I'd feel a bit weird about totally one-upping one of the bard's class features, and then the bard herself gains nothing from standing in the pally's aura. Something to ponder, though, thanks!
    Ok then, so how about instead of half prof bonus to non proficient skills, grant advantage to non proficient skills? Makes it different from bard, bard still gets bonus from aura and improves party. Would granting advantage be too OP?

    Ps, have a gander at this for me, my opposite number to this, the Shadowbane Stalker (pallyrogue) ;)

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...owbane-Stalker
    Last edited by Ghost Dragon; 2015-02-27 at 01:34 AM.

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