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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Does the sky-blue rating for Ritual Caster account for the fact that you'd need a 13 in Int or Wis? You might find yourself MADed up a bit.

    (Sorry if this has been addressed.)

    Love this and all of your guides, thanks for doing them.
    Last edited by GhorrinRedblade; 2017-02-07 at 10:53 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Is this guide going to cover UA options apart from race, like Tunnel Fighter or the Tyranny & Treachery oaths?
    The pursuit of knowledge requires a mind unfettered by the petty constraints of ethics, faith, or ... mortality.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Excellent overview, EvilAnagram.

    It's one of the two best guides I've found for exploring Paladin options and I particularly like the way that you keep the character creation open-ended with mechanics acting in a secondary role to role playing.

    I would like to see your views on the Unearthed Arcana, Oath of Treachery option when you get a chance.

    I have a character in mind that I'd like to use that oath on. I want to create a reformed criminal (rogue) who was saved by a paladin as part of his backstory. Because of this he decides to turn his back on crime and become a Paladin himself. In the campaign, evil forces start to take over the country using a mix of military strength and underhanded political machinations. These forces want to remove the paladins and use the paladins morals and predictability against them by creating situations where the paladins have to choose what is right and what will allow them to defeat their enemies, or between helping others vs. their own survival. After seeing many of his comrades killed because of their ideals, he decides that the traditional methods of the paladins aren't working and has a crisis of faith. He half reverts to his old unlawful ways as a means of restoring the balance by using the evil force's methods against them. His group works together using illusion, deception, poison, and contrived treachery to frame and eliminate the evil leaders and to pit them against each other. The reformed criminal couldn't use these methods as a paladin, so he falls and secretly becomes a blackguard in an attempt to defeat his enemies and protect the people left in his order.

    Lots of role playing options, especially depending on whether or not the entire party is in on it. I'm picturing an intrigue-heavy campaign where the players have to play intelligently, gather information, seek out targets of opportunity and fade away before the reinforcements arrive. It would encourage players to be creative in trying to use any available means to get an edge; including using dirty tricks, such as using "Betray" as a word of command, or attempting an incapacitating strike on an opponent by applying the proficiency bonus from your medicine skill to the skill check because you're using your anatomical knowledge. Ect.

    The Oath of Treachery option sounds like an ideal fit for this type of character or fighting style. The Oath of Treachery is extremely open ended in allowing you to decide what your character will do, as opposed to the other Oaths. I'm thinking of dual classing to a dexterity based Paladin after hitting level 3 in thief and unlocking either Assassin or Swashbuckler as an archetype. Possibly at level 5 after Uncanny Dodge.

    I want characters to have an unusual and challenging adventure that makes them think creatively and possibly reevaluate their views and reevaluate the ways that they would approach an issue.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    I don't agree with the sorcerer multiclass option being only blue. Sorcadins are among the best multiclass builds in this edition. The two mesh together so well they almost fuse together and transcend the limits of both classes.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Corran's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    I would really like to see your take on the new conquest oath if/when you have time, even if it is just a brief evaluation. Then again, the oath will most likely make print soon enough, so if you want to hold back till you can see the final version, it is totally understadable. I still hope for a sneak peak at your thoughts about it though...!
    Last edited by Corran; 2017-06-08 at 07:05 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    I would really like to see your take on the new conquest oath if/when you have time, even if it is just a brief evaluation. Then again, the oath will most likely make print soon enough, so if you want to hold back till you can see the final version, it is totally understadable. I still hope for a sneak peak though...!
    I'm waiting for the new book to come out before I write up an official take on it, but I'm honestly a big fan. It has the flavor of a 4e devotee of Bane, and it makes a very sticky tank. That said, the stickiness doesn't show up until seventh level, and it really won't be coming fully online until you can cast Fear. Levels 10+ will be extremely powerful, though, and I do like that the Conquering Presence essentially acts as Turn Everyone.
    Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2017-06-08 at 07:14 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Corran's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    I'm waiting for the new book to come out before I write up an official take on it, but I'm honestly a big fan. It has the flavor of a 4e devotee of Bane, and it makes a very sticky tank. That said, the stickiness doesn't show up until seventh level, and it really won't be coming fully online until you can cast Fear. Levels 10+ will be extremely powerful, though, and I do like that the Conquering Presence essentially acts as Turn Everyone.
    I hadn't thought of the benefits of fear, over conquering presence, when you combine them with the lvl7 aura (looked it up again because of how you said they come fully online at lvl9 when they get fear). If fear sticks, they'll never get to make another save as long as you can hold on to your concentration (didnt remember that part of fear). I guess they will be able to use their action to attack/dodge/anything-but-dash since they cant use their action to dash as dictated by the fear spell, so that can really shut down opponents without reach or a ranged attack, just as long as your remain in the right spot (I am expecting to see DMs having more monsters using bull rush tactics if they have a lvl9+ conquest paly PC. That CC is very powerful! (I just realized it, so apologies for stating the obvious.)

    I think the real headache when playing a conquest paly, will be how you will manage your spell slots. Now, I am completelly speculating here, but they get so many good stuff! AoA and stoneskin will probably be very important the moment you hit lvl15 (temp hp and resistance, thus you will have to be hit more times to be brought down, so your 15lvl feature will probably be used more, at least in the difficult fights), and AoA and stoneskin are a good combination on their own. But even at lower levels, you'll have all the useful spells a paly gets (wrathful smite becomes even more important too), and you also get spiritual weapon and later on fear, plus you need slots to smite... So many good uses, both concentration-ones and concentration-free. It's a logistical nightmare, so many good choices!

    Oops, I rambled a bit, couldnt hold myself. Anyway, thanks for your take, will wait to see what you'll make of the final version once(/if?) we see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Arkhios's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    It just occurred to me that Fallen Aasimar might make quite impressive Conquest Paladin.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    It just occurred to me that Fallen Aasimar might make quite impressive Conquest Paladin.
    Definitely. They'd be coming online much earlier, and in general the boost to both Strength and Charisma is very helpful for a paladin who wants to cast debuffs.
    Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2017-06-08 at 09:57 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    A note on the Multiclassing section. Barbarians' Unarmored Defense does work with a shield unlike what is stated there and how it works for Monks.
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  11. - Top - End - #251
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Why is Fighter sky-blue? Second Wind is nice but doesn't scale, plus you would already get better healing from the increase in your LoH pool if you're dipping more than 1 level. An extra Fighting Style... yeah, that's nice, and Action Surge is yet more awesome nova potential. Battlemaster or Champion could both be good, but Extra Attack doesn't stack, so any split where it made a difference would be more like Fighter/Paladin. I also feel like the loss of spellcasting progression hurts too much on a half-caster that already burns its slots at both ends with smiting and spells.
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  12. - Top - End - #252
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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Sans. View Post
    Why is Fighter sky-blue? Second Wind is nice but doesn't scale, plus you would already get better healing from the increase in your LoH pool if you're dipping more than 1 level. An extra Fighting Style... yeah, that's nice, and Action Surge is yet more awesome nova potential. Battlemaster or Champion could both be good, but Extra Attack doesn't stack, so any split where it made a difference would be more like Fighter/Paladin. I also feel like the loss of spellcasting progression hurts too much on a half-caster that already burns its slots at both ends with smiting and spells.
    You kind of just explained it. Action Surge, an extra Fighting Style, and the level three archetype features are all excellent benefits.

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    You kind of just explained it. Action Surge, an extra Fighting Style, and the level three archetype features are all excellent benefits.
    Exactly. Stop at 3!
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  14. - Top - End - #254
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Presuming 2-3 short rests per day (what you should be getting per day unless your DM is an idiot) then second wind scales just fine.

  15. - Top - End - #255
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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    I've updated with the spells and archetypes from XGtE. I'll do the feats after I update the other guides, but just take Dragonfear if you're a Dragonborn Conquest Paladin. This isn't rocket science, folks. For now, it's time to give thanks to the turkey god.

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    I've updated with the spells and archetypes from XGtE. I'll do the feats after I update the other guides, but just take Dragonfear if you're a Dragonborn Conquest Paladin. This isn't rocket science, folks. For now, it's time to give thanks to the turkey god.
    Your guide is missing the Tortle race from the Tortle Package.

  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    I've updated with the spells and archetypes from XGtE. I'll do the feats after I update the other guides, but just take Dragonfear if you're a Dragonborn Conquest Paladin. This isn't rocket science, folks. For now, it's time to give thanks to the turkey god.

    Is it apropos that turkeys say, "Gobble, gobble?"

    Also, the turkey god says "GROVEL! GROVEL!"

  18. - Top - End - #258
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by DireSickFish View Post
    Regular Human should be downgraded because it doesn't give anything that synergies with Pally, and there are far better selections.
    It is actually really good with MAD classes like the Paladin. It would be silly on something like a wizard though when they are one stat wonders. You can use point buy to avoid negatives in dump stats, with normal human, while still excelling in various stats. Also helps if you want to multiclass.

    Personally I think Kobolds seem pretty low. A dex Pally with pack tactics sounds pretty good.

  19. - Top - End - #259
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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by LordofGoats View Post
    It is actually really good with MAD classes like the Paladin. It would be silly on something like a wizard though when they are one stat wonders. You can use point buy to avoid negatives in dump stats, with normal human, while still excelling in various stats. Also helps if you want to multiclass.

    Personally I think Kobolds seem pretty low. A dex Pally with pack tactics sounds pretty good.
    I suppose you're right.

    The problem with Kobolds is that their features only lend towards a single play style and do nothing for anything other than attacking with dexterity. Still, that's at least worth a purple rating.

  20. - Top - End - #260
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by LordofGoats View Post
    It is actually really good with MAD classes like the Paladin. It would be silly on something like a wizard though when they are one stat wonders. You can use point buy to avoid negatives in dump stats, with normal human, while still excelling in various stats. Also helps if you want to multiclass.

    Personally I think Kobolds seem pretty low. A dex Pally with pack tactics sounds pretty good.
    MAD is relative. paladins basically want 2 very high stats (dex or str, and cha) and one good stat (con), and then probably a few feats to round things out which makes it hard to get those high stats. that's what makes paladins MAD. getting 6 points across 6 attributes really isn't that much better than getting 2 points across 2 attributes if those 2 attributes are ones that you really wanted. your need for ASIs hasn't really been reduced as a standard human. meanwhile, the human variant gives you a free feat, which is like getting an entire extra ASI... it's like getting +4 to your 3 important stats, as compared to getting +6 but only 3 of them are in really important stats.

    it gets even worse when you look at point buy, because getting your dump stats from 9 to 10 is not as valuable as getting your key stats from 14 to 15, let alone from 15 to 16.

  21. - Top - End - #261
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Why does Sentinel pair well with Holy Nimbus? I mean Sentinel is great on it's own but I'm wondering why you specifically chose to talk about that.

  22. - Top - End - #262
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jage0910 View Post
    Why does Sentinel pair well with Holy Nimbus? I mean Sentinel is great on it's own but I'm wondering why you specifically chose to talk about that.
    Holy Nimbus as I recall gives essentially a smal damage aura around your paladin. Sentinel makes you more likely to prevent enemies from leaving you. The damage aura will make enemies want to leave the paladin but the feat will try to prevent them from doing so allowing your holy nimbus to deal more damage to enemies.

    Personally I would not pick up sentinel specifically for this 20th level ability but if I did pick up sentinel for other reasons it does work well with this ability.
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  23. - Top - End - #263
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Holy Nimbus as I recall gives essentially a smal damage aura around your paladin. Sentinel makes you more likely to prevent enemies from leaving you. The damage aura will make enemies want to leave the paladin but the feat will try to prevent them from doing so allowing your holy nimbus to deal more damage to enemies.

    Personally I would not pick up sentinel specifically for this 20th level ability but if I did pick up sentinel for other reasons it does work well with this ability.
    Thank you that makes a lot of sense. I know that Sentinel is very powerful with Polearm Master but it's still very good on its own even without a reach weapon right?

  24. - Top - End - #264
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Find steed should be sky blue, you use it once and then get the benefits of having a steed until it dies, so you get the benefits later on because you cast the spell forever ago. Use it then lose it, basically

  25. - Top - End - #265
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    With the new invocations and archetypes in Xanathar's guide to everything, paladin/warlocks (I refuse to call them waladins or pallocks) are somewhat more viable and more interesting. In addition to new mechanics that synergize well, the flavor also matches quite well. Plus, if you take five levels in warlock and choose the eldritch smite and improved pact weapon invocation (or if you have a magic ranged weapon) you gain an incredibly potent weapon against the paladin's former worst enemy, flying things.
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  26. - Top - End - #266
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    I tend to build Paladin as Tank. As much a I prefer Oath of Devotion fluff, Oath of the Ancients does it better, and I typically go variant human with Heavy Armor Master at level 1, backed up with Sentinel at level 4 and Mage Slayer at level 8.

    But what to take at level 12? Shield Master won't do what I want it to for dex saves...there's always Lucky, I guess...

  27. - Top - End - #267
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelalex242 View Post
    I tend to build Paladin as Tank. As much a I prefer Oath of Devotion fluff, Oath of the Ancients does it better, and I typically go variant human with Heavy Armor Master at level 1, backed up with Sentinel at level 4 and Mage Slayer at level 8.

    But what to take at level 12? Shield Master won't do what I want it to for dex saves...there's always Lucky, I guess...
    If you're starting vuman and taking feats at 4 and 8, you're going to need a stat bump at 12 and 16.

  28. - Top - End - #268
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Squiddish View Post
    With the new invocations and archetypes in Xanathar's guide to everything, paladin/warlocks (I refuse to call them waladins or pallocks) are somewhat more viable and more interesting. In addition to new mechanics that synergize well, the flavor also matches quite well. Plus, if you take five levels in warlock and choose the eldritch smite and improved pact weapon invocation (or if you have a magic ranged weapon) you gain an incredibly potent weapon against the paladin's former worst enemy, flying things.
    Emphasis mine, you could always call them Wardins.

  29. - Top - End - #269
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Thanks for the guide. It's fantastic!

    We're an all Tiefling group. I chose to make a Paladin. I have STR 16, CHA 16 & CON 15 to start. There is a Bard in the group that is planning to melee mostly, a Sorcerer that will hang back and a Rogue that will likely do a little of both, but probably stay at range most of the time.

    I'm thinking of going with Polearm Master and Sentinel, but won't get both of these feats until 8th level, which is a ways off.

    So here is my dilemma:

    What order should I get these feats in? What fighting style should I chose at 2nd level? I'm currently Sword & Board because I only have Chainmail to start, but can probably get full plate by 4th level or so.

    I want my ultimate build to be a PAM/SENT Halberd wielding control tank. I was planning Oath of Vengeance because I like the spells and the other stuff is pretty good too and it fits my back story.

    I'm willing to dip into Fighter if it makes sense at some point, but also fine with a pure Paladin as well. My DM will likely allow my Smite 1s and 2s to be re-rolled if I take the GW style.

    Does anyone have any thoughts?
    Last edited by Johnny Awesome; 2018-04-10 at 05:31 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #270
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    You should absolutely take GWF if your DM allows rerolls on Smites, since it will be by far the greatest damage. Defense is an acceptable option too but definitely the inferior one.

    I'd probably lean towards PAM before Sentinel but it's really up to you. It's a fantastic combo either way, especially for a Paladin.

    It's worth noting though that Vengeance is the least tanky/control-oriented of the Oaths. It's of course still viable and if you love the RP/mechanics of it you should still go for it, but the subclass is more oriented around pursuing and pinning down one enemy at a time instead of protecting your team. You might consider taking a look at the Oath of Conquest for a similarly dark character that's more oriented towards establishing a zone of control.

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