Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

[EvilAnagram]

While people are in this thread...

Is there such a thing as too many bonus actions? I've been wanting to play a character who is a Hexblade 1/Paladin X for a while. (Haven't been able to, my DM keeps delaying the campaign.) I initially cast her as a vPally, but now I'm wondering, mechanically, if that makes any sense.

Here's my problem with Vengeance: Hexblade's curse, hunter's mark, and abjure enemy are all bonus actions. They all stack, which is great, but I either have to set them up from stealth somehow (possible with hunter's mark, arguable for curse, impossible for abjure) or not really 'come online' until the third round of combat. Or not use them all in the same combat. I'm not using TWF or GWM or PAM, so it isn't like there's a cost to using my bonus action, but it feels very clunky to build this way.

Thematically, Crown or Conquest would work for her as well. Conquest obviously has synergy with hexblade after level 8 or so.

Spoiler: extraneous info

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To give a bit more information regarding race/feats, that's up in the air. I'm probably using one of the following tracks:

Half-elf with EA at 4th level
Vhuman with Inspiring Leader at 1 and +2 charisma at 4
Vhuman with HAM at 1 and +2 charisma at 4.(This assumes taking paladin for the first level)

The problem with thisis that it will take three turns to come online, by which point the combat is nearly over.

[strangebloke]

The problem with thisis that it will take three turns to come online, by which point the combat is nearly over.

Right, that was sort of my thinking. I was wondered if anyone had actually found that to be an issue with the vPally or similar characters. I see a lot of vPally theorycraft builds which have GWM/PAM and also have hunter's mark and abjure enemy. I guess abjure is good by itself if I go the EA route.

Also, what would everyone see as the ideal order? I would say:

HM from stealth (if possible) -> Curse ->Abjure -> HM

Hunter's Mark from stealth is basically free.
Curse adds damage, gives bonus on kill, adds crit range which will be more useful sooner rather than later.
Abjure builds on crit range, makes sure the attack hits.
Hunter's Mark is less useful than the other two, adding only damage. (It's also the only one that isn't wasted if the target dies.)

[werescythe]

So I had this idea for a Triton character who serves as a paladin but the idea is that due to some genetic traits (caused by an ancestor fighting an aboleth or kraken) her people view her as a sea witch. As a result she has gone to the surface but seeks to someday return.

What would be a good paladin oath for this character? I had thought of maybe multiclassing three levels into Shadow Sorcery for its darkness (Ink Cloud) ability.

[1Pirate]

So I had this idea for a Triton character who serves as a paladin but the idea is that due to some genetic traits (caused by an ancestor fighting an aboleth or kraken) her people view her as a sea witch. As a result she has gone to the surface but seeks to someday return.

What would be a good paladin oath for this character? I had thought of maybe multiclassing three levels into Shadow Sorcery for its darkness (Ink Cloud) ability.

Seems like Oath of the Ancients, unless her goal is to return as the ruler of her people or if she has an ax to grind with someone specific in the Triton population.

[Craulnober]

First of all thanks for this guide.
I'm new to 5th edition, being playing AD&D for decades, and I've decided to roll a Paladin.

My stats are:
STR 17
CON 12
DEX 12
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 16

I've chosen the Human Variant (added 1 point in STR and CHA) and I think of choosing the Vengeance.
I still have not decided about my style and feats so I'd like some advice. I don't want to be OP or uber-optimal, just don't want to make stupid choices either.

My initial thoughts are to go sword and board.
I'll take my 1st level feat (from Variant) in Heavy Armor Master, so I can get STR to 18 and have the benefits of the feat early on.
I'm thinking of Dueling in Lvl 2.
And then again for the next feat to take Shield Mastery.
Are there any better choices or alternatives?

In the case of a great weapon what would be the choices?
Great Weapon Fighting, Great Weapon Mastery and what other feat? Maybe Resilient (CON) ?

Any input hugely appreciated

[EvilAnagram]

Spoiler

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First of all thanks for this guide.
I'm new to 5th edition, being playing AD&D for decades, and I've decided to roll a Paladin.

My stats are:
STR 17
CON 12
DEX 12
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 16

I've chosen the Human Variant (added 1 point in STR and CHA) and I think of choosing the Vengeance.
I still have not decided about my style and feats so I'd like some advice. I don't want to be OP or uber-optimal, just don't want to make stupid choices either.

My initial thoughts are to go sword and board.
I'll take my 1st level feat (from Variant) in Heavy Armor Master, so I can get STR to 18 and have the benefits of the feat early on.
I'm thinking of Dueling in Lvl 2.
And then again for the next feat to take Shield Mastery.
Are there any better choices or alternatives?

In the case of a great weapon what would be the choices?
Great Weapon Fighting, Great Weapon Mastery and what other feat? Maybe Resilient (CON) ?

Any input hugely appreciated

Thanks!

That's a very solid build. Sword and board is probably a good choice for you, as your HP will lag over time.

Spoiler

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So I had this idea for a Triton character who serves as a paladin but the idea is that due to some genetic traits (caused by an ancestor fighting an aboleth or kraken) her people view her as a sea witch. As a result she has gone to the surface but seeks to someday return.

What would be a good paladin oath for this character? I had thought of maybe multiclassing three levels into Shadow Sorcery for its darkness (Ink Cloud) ability.

The multiclass is fine, but you should probably examine your character's motives before picking an oath. None of her backstory makes me think of any particular path. Is she kind? Does she revere nature or seek to bring liveliness to others? Is she protective of others? Does she forgive her people and only want what's best? Does she want to return as a conqueror? Or exact vengeance on those who cast her out? Those are the questions you need to answer.

[Miracle_Matter]

I have a question for EvilAnagram.
Can you go into detail for why Goliath is rated light blue while Half-orc is rated blue? This could really help me thaw out a concept for my pure tank paladin. Tanks! (See what I did there? I did a pun using tanks instead of thanks ... *sigh* ... why do I even try being funny?)

[Angelalex242]

Undying Sentinel is better than originally thought. According to the devs, that's full Immortality (vs. Age, anyway). You can live forever.

[EvilAnagram]

I have a question for EvilAnagram.
Can you go into detail for why Goliath is rated light blue while Half-orc is rated blue? This could really help me thaw out a concept for my pure tank paladin. Tanks! (See what I did there? I did a pun using tanks instead of thanks ... *sigh* ... why do I even try being funny?)

I always award inspiration for puncraft!

Anyhew... no. I can't tell you what I was thinking. Honestly, while I like the reaction more than the not dying ability, the extra crit die and the darkvision are nice. I will reconsider.

[Miracle_Matter]

Anyhew... no. I can't tell you what I was thinking. Honestly, while I like the reaction more than the not dying ability, the extra crit die and the darkvision are nice. I will reconsider.

I believe that half-orc is probably just as good as Goliath, but you will probably face racism. My reasoning is that the athletics proficiency of the Goliath and the intimidation proficiency of the half-orc balance each other out (you will take athletics anyways and from an RP stand point, as a half-orc, you will probably be intimidating people much more than you would be persuading townsfolk that you are a nice orc). The reduction of damage for the Goliath is much less situational than the half-orc ability, but it's nice to survive the one shot the boss uses so that you can raise your party back up. Extra carrying capacity basically means nothing unless your DM is really cruel and uses the variant rules. Darkvision can also mean nothing in most situations since you will almost always have a human in your party (the only use would be if the light source was snuffed out). They both get the same boosts to stats, and both are physically intimidating. I think the only drawback to the Goliath in comparing the two is if your DM is using Adventurer League rules and only allows one extra book to use in creating your character, which I believe doesn't usually happen, but it's how it is in my campaign. After considering all of those things, the half-orc seems to win by small margin by the extra crit damage it does. In my opinion either both are blue or barely light blue, with the half-orc having a little more RP potential.

[EvilAnagram]

I believe that half-orc is probably just as good as Goliath, but you will probably face racism. My reasoning is that the athletics proficiency of the Goliath and the intimidation proficiency of the half-orc balance each other out (you will take athletics anyways and from an RP stand point, as a half-orc, you will probably be intimidating people much more than you would be persuading townsfolk that you are a nice orc). The reduction of damage for the Goliath is much less situational than the half-orc ability, but it's nice to survive the one shot the boss uses so that you can raise your party back up. Extra carrying capacity basically means nothing unless your DM is really cruel and uses the variant rules. Darkvision can also mean nothing in most situations since you will almost always have a human in your party (the only use would be if the light source was snuffed out). They both get the same boosts to stats, and both are physically intimidating. I think the only drawback to the Goliath in comparing the two is if your DM is using Adventurer League rules and only allows one extra book to use in creating your character, which I believe doesn't usually happen, but it's how it is in my campaign. After considering all of those things, the half-orc seems to win by small margin by the extra crit damage it does. In my opinion either both are blue or barely light blue, with the half-orc having a little more RP potential.

Yes, I've lowered the Goliath to Blue. They're not amazing, but they're definitely pretty damn good.

[Miracle_Matter]

I think that you should look more into compelled duel. It has some nice potential in certain situations. Lets say that a big baddie is smart and is targeting your party's wizard with all of its attacks. You can use compelled duel to halfway stop that from happening. Lets say that you have been split up from your party while in a fight so that you are dealing with some enemies while your companions are fight a boss on the other side of the room. Compelled duel can make it so that the boss has disadvantage on all attacks against your party members since it isn't willing to get OA by every person in your party. Not as good as suggestion in my opinion, but maybe juuuuuuuuuust enough to make it blue. It also blends well with the role-playing aspect as you get to taunt your enemy. Just a thought.

On another note, which paladin oath do you, the community, believe is the tankiest of them all? Open to discussion.

[Angelalex242]

I think that you should look more into compelled duel. It has some nice potential in certain situations. Lets say that a big baddie is smart and is targeting your party's wizard with all of its attacks. You can use compelled duel to halfway stop that from happening. Lets say that you have been split up from your party while in a fight so that you are dealing with some enemies while your companions are fight a boss on the other side of the room. Compelled duel can make it so that the boss has disadvantage on all attacks against your party members since it isn't willing to get OA by every person in your party. Not as good as suggestion in my opinion, but maybe juuuuuuuuuust enough to make it blue. It also blends well with the role-playing aspect as you get to taunt your enemy. Just a thought.

On another note, which paladin oath do you, the community, believe is the tankiest of them all? Open to discussion.

Oath of the Ancients by far. Magic Resistance matters far more as time goes on than physical resistance.

[Miracle_Matter]

Oath of the Ancients by far. Magic Resistance matters far more as time goes on than physical resistance.

Thanks for the input. Does anyone else have a suggestion? I'm specifically using this character for curse of strahd and I know that there will definitely be played exactly as it is in the book. I'm going to use the half-orc as my race.

[EvilAnagram]

Thanks for the input. Does anyone else have a suggestion? I'm specifically using this character for curse of strahd and I know that there will definitely be played exactly as it is in the book. I'm going to use the half-orc as my race.

If you're playing Curse of Strahd, Devotion is king. Turn the Unholy and Aura of Devotion are incredibly useful in that campaign.

[jaappleton]

If you're playing Curse of Strahd, Devotion is king. Turn the Unholy and Aura of Devotion are incredibly useful in that campaign.

Not to mention immunity to Charms!

[Miracle_Matter]

Thanks! I think I have my character thawed out now.

One more question. Since this is Curse of Strahd goes on to what I believe is 10th level (correct me if I am wrong), do you guys believe I should take sentinel or go with as many ASIs as I can get? Factor in that I am a half-orc.

[Galadhrim]

Right, that was sort of my thinking. I was wondered if anyone had actually found that to be an issue with the vPally or similar characters. I see a lot of vPally theorycraft builds which have GWM/PAM and also have hunter's mark and abjure enemy. I guess abjure is good by itself if I go the EA route.

Also, what would everyone see as the ideal order? I would say:

HM from stealth (if possible) -> Curse ->Abjure -> HM

Hunter's Mark from stealth is basically free.
Curse adds damage, gives bonus on kill, adds crit range which will be more useful sooner rather than later.
Abjure builds on crit range, makes sure the attack hits.
Hunter's Mark is less useful than the other two, adding only damage. (It's also the only one that isn't wasted if the target dies.)

I know this if from a few weeks ago, but I thought I would give you some feedback.

I'm currently playing a Half Orc Paladin oath of the crown 8/hexblade 1. I don't think it is a problem to have options with your bonus action. I don't have Abjure enemy but I do often want to use my channel divinity to cause enemies to say within 30 ft to help tank for the party, so I'm dealing with the same idea of 3 different bonus actions I want to get in to play. The good news is, you won't always need the same one at the same time, or if you don't get one off in the fight, you can use it in the next fight and you may not have had time to rest to use the other one. A little bit of discussion on how I decide whether to use Curse or Hex (I use it instead of HM but it is basically identical). If there are several small enemies, I use Hex first (so HM for your) because it is transferable after I kill the first little guy. If there is one boss that I want to focus on, I cast Curse first. It is the biggest bang for you buck as far as targeting a single creature. Plus proficiency to damage is better than the 1d6 damage from hex, plus all of the extras that come with it (improved crit range, etc). In this case, he will likely still be standing, so then I will follow up with hex on the next attack. You can decide where advantage to hit plays in here, but I would say it is probably first as you gain the most damage from ensuring you hit.

All that to say, no, I don't think it is a problem to have multiple bonus action options. When they all apply to one creature, that creature is usually a boss and it is nice to keep stacking up on him. when they don't all apply, it is usually pretty obvious which one to prioritize and it is not always the same one.

I hope that is helpful.

[bribri88]

Not sure if this has been asked but...what does everyone think of a Paladin Oath of Conquest and a Blood Hunter Lycan multiclass? I played as the Lycan but I wanted to do more then just attack. I'm liking the paladin so far...but I do miss the crimson rite and transformation lil. Also new here! The welcome thread was closed o.o

[Sception]

Sadly, the synergy isn't really there, as blood hunter is wisdom based for save DCs, while conquest pally is very cha dependant. Save DCs aren't that important for a lycan, but it still matters somewhat. The rite damage is ok, but the self damage to activate it scales with character level, while the damage die only scales with class level, and conquest, being a mory tankung-oriented oath, isn't well surved by trading survivability for more damage. Additionally, you'd need to go three levels deep into hunter to get the lycan archetype, where Conquest is the least disposed to multiclassing of the paladin oaths.

If you want to make a paladin/lycan multiclass work, you might be better served via the oath of vengeance, oath of the ancients, or maybe oathbreaker if you dm is cool with it. And in general, hunter mixes more smoothly with ranger, monk, or druid due to the wisdom synergy. Gloom Stalker Ranger might capture some of that edgelord, dark-knight flavour if that's what you wanted from Conqueror.

Alternatively, if you were looking to add more magical swordflair to the conqueror, hexblade warlock does that while alsi synergizing much better with the conqueror's charisma dependancy.

[EvilAnagram]

I would add that the Oath of Conquest is so powerful in part because of the synergy between its aura and the various other abilities. Multiclassing necessarily impedes this.

[bribri88]

Ahhh gotcha! I'll have to do more research ^_^ thanks you guys

[Whit]

A@Evilanagram
If I wanted to play a half elf paladin vengeance who multiclass into warlock hexblade what should my level progression look like with feat or ability. Stats are the Str 14(15) Int 8, Wis 12, Dex 10, Con 13(14), Cha 17.

I was thinking s&b
Lvl 1. Paladin
Lvl 2. Warlock hexblade
Lvl 3-6 paladin 2 attacks, Aura. Lvl 4 Elven Accuracy +1cha (18) plus re roll on advantage hit > vow enmity > hexblade curse > 19-20 crit. > divine smite
Lvl?????? Now I’m not sure how to progress.
paladin 7-20 (19) max more spells I.d.s at 11.
Or 7-20 (14) max hexblade for A.Hex invocations.
Or combination. Such as 7-16 hexblade (10) For Armor hex
Paladin 17-20 (10)
Or an 11/9 combo for Pali improve divine smite

And then what should I do with remaining 2 feat or ability

Or am I missing something else

Thanks for tips

[EvilAnagram]

A@Evilanagram
If I wanted to play a half elf paladin vengeance who multiclass into warlock hexblade what should my level progression look like with feat or ability. Stats are the Str 14(15) Int 8, Wis 12, Dex 10, Con 13(14), Cha 17.

I was thinking s&b
Lvl 1. Paladin
Lvl 2. Warlock hexblade
Lvl 3-6 paladin 2 attacks, Aura. Lvl 4 Elven Accuracy +1cha (18) plus re roll on advantage hit > vow enmity > hexblade curse > 19-20 crit. > divine smite
Lvl?????? Now I’m not sure how to progress.
paladin 7-20 (19) max more spells I.d.s at 11.
Or 7-20 (14) max hexblade for A.Hex invocations.
Or combination. Such as 7-16 hexblade (10) For Armor hex
Paladin 17-20 (10)
Or an 11/9 combo for Pali improve divine smite

And then what should I do with remaining 2 feat or ability

Or am I missing something else

Thanks for tips

You've come up with great ideas already. I would at least stick around for Paladin 6 and the aura, but I think you can safely hop into Hexblade after that.

[KyleG]

First of all love the guides and looking forward to a wizard one.
As to paladins with plate unlikely for sometime I wondered whether there is a case for a nonplated paladin? Iv got a character idea for a character that is trying to hideherself from from the world but is compelled to stand up for it and starts off completely covered including something for her eyes. I wonder if by the time plate becomes available if they are more open to showing what they are...aaismar.

[Waifu Collector]

First of all love the guides and looking forward to a wizard one.
As to paladins with plate unlikely for sometime I wondered whether there is a case for a nonplated paladin? Iv got a character idea for a character that is trying to hideherself from from the world but is compelled to stand up for it and starts off completely covered including something for her eyes. I wonder if by the time plate becomes available if they are more open to showing what they are...aaismar.

You could always wear a mask alongside your armor, so you don’t have to wait for plate.

[Waifu Collector]

Paladin is by far my favorite class. And this guide is quite good (though I disagree with the Crown and Redemption Oaths being anything above purple).

[jdolch]

I wondered whether there is a case for a nonplated paladin?

DEX-Paladin with leather Armor ? But i don't see how you need Plate Armor to wear a helmet. A ninja Mask would be a bit obvious but you can always just wear a cloak with a large hood.

[coyote_sly]

Right, that was sort of my thinking. I was wondered if anyone had actually found that to be an issue with the vPally or similar characters. I see a lot of vPally theorycraft builds which have GWM/PAM and also have hunter's mark and abjure enemy. I guess abjure is good by itself if I go the EA route.

Also, what would everyone see as the ideal order? I would say:

HM from stealth (if possible) -> Curse ->Abjure -> HM

Hunter's Mark from stealth is basically free.
Curse adds damage, gives bonus on kill, adds crit range which will be more useful sooner rather than later.
Abjure builds on crit range, makes sure the attack hits.
Hunter's Mark is less useful than the other two, adding only damage. (It's also the only one that isn't wasted if the target dies.)

I play a Vengeance Paladin in one game, and eventually kind of decided against a sorc multi just because it's so bonus action hungry - like you said, you'll be on your third turn deep before you're even thinking about a quicken booming blade.

[jdolch]

You could also go one to three levels into shadow sorcerer and then ask your DM if he would allow you for flavor reasons that you can wear a large Hood (like the Emperor from Star Wars) and shroud your face in Darkness. You know like "Somehow the shadows under his Hood always fall in such a way that you can't quite make out the face. Very curious."