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  1. - Top - End - #331
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    You could also take two levels in warlock, then use Mask of Many Faces to continuously cast Disguise Self to change your appearance.
    Last edited by follacchioso; 2018-11-13 at 04:15 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #332
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Tonight I figured out a synergy that is absolutely crazy, but I haven't seen anyone else mention it. Anyway, without further ado:

    Find steed is fantastic on its own, but what makes it truly amazing is one line hidden in the middle of the text. "While mounted, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed."

    Now take a second look at, for example, two of your third level spells, aura of vitality and spirit guardians (if you're oath of the crown, or multiclassing). Both target... only you. They affect other creatures, but they are a radius with a target of self. Now they also target your steed (specific trumps general; the range of self is overruled). So if you're letting your mount act independently rather than treating it as a controlled mount (which you should be doing anyway with find steed) your mount can contribute its bonus action and you are healing 4d6 HP per turn as a bonus action for a full minute or as long as you maintain concentration. Or, with spirit guardians, you're dealing 6d8 (+2d8 per spell slot level above 3rd) to every hostile within 15 ft.

    Ladies, gentlemen, and anyone else: that is crazy good.

  3. - Top - End - #333
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Tonight I figured out a synergy that is absolutely crazy, but I haven't seen anyone else mention it. Anyway, without further ado:

    Find steed is fantastic on its own, but what makes it truly amazing is one line hidden in the middle of the text. "While mounted, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed."

    Now take a second look at, for example, two of your third level spells, aura of vitality and spirit guardians (if you're oath of the crown, or multiclassing). Both target... only you. They affect other creatures, but they are a radius with a target of self. Now they also target your steed (specific trumps general; the range of self is overruled). So if you're letting your mount act independently rather than treating it as a controlled mount (which you should be doing anyway with find steed) your mount can contribute its bonus action and you are healing 4d6 HP per turn as a bonus action for a full minute or as long as you maintain concentration. Or, with spirit guardians, you're dealing 6d8 (+2d8 per spell slot level above 3rd) to every hostile within 15 ft.

    Ladies, gentlemen, and anyone else: that is crazy good.
    That is well known. There are dozens of threats a la "Find Steed is op" and they are all centering on this. Although i am not sure if it works with Aura of Vitality for example. To be more precise: Yes you may have 2 Auras but its still your spell and you are the one who needs to take the bonus action. Dunno.
    Last edited by jdolch; 2018-12-04 at 06:38 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #334
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    When playing an Oath of vengeance are you focused on a race, or a specific target or simply within each battle itself?

  5. - Top - End - #335
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
    When playing an Oath of vengeance are you focused on a race, or a specific target or simply within each battle itself?
    The sworn enemy of an Oath of Vengeance Paladin can be almost anything; a specific organisation organisation, a philosophy, a concept ('corruption'). It's the Oath of Vengeance, not the Oath of Bigotry.
    Last edited by Theodoric; 2018-12-25 at 07:07 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #336
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoric View Post
    The sworn enemy of an Oath of Vengeance Paladin can be almost anything; a specific organisation organisation, a philosophy, a concept ('corruption'). It's the Oath of Vengeance, not the Oath of Bigotry.
    Thanks.
    On another note, i created a character who was scholar, thru a series of events of injustice makes a pact and becomes a warlock hell bent on revenge. But i also want to create his "what if". So in this scenario he died and thru the same injustice his wife over the next five years trains to the point she is now a paladin of vengeance. Now in another life both these characters would likely have been half elf wizards.
    Any suggestions for her stats if thru racial or points she will start on 14 for intelligence?
    Ill ask for thoughts on his stats elsewhere but i imagine his vengeance being carried out in a more rogue like manner (dex) while hers is more direct (str). A good dice role would make them better but for the purpose of this it is point buy +1, +1, +2cha

  7. - Top - End - #337
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by madwolf10 View Post
    Well holy sweet killing machine, nice summary EvilAnagram!! Look forward to more... as my choice IS a Tiefling Paladin (of Vengeance) for the game starting next month.

    My very first DnD character was a tiefling paladin with the oath of vengeance lol, really im a noob and i was looking into a great way to be useful to my party and this just suits my character background and seem pretty op for and easy enough for a noob to handle.

  8. - Top - End - #338
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Picking an Oath

    I'm new to 5e, but have a 10 levels worth of DM experience for 4e. Maybe I'm a bit stuck in the old "some picks are good and others are trash" way of thinking. I remember some flavourful choices for 4e were traps, because they even tho some classes and features had a selling point, they didn't always deliver on the promise when it came down to actual gameplay.

    I'm trying to pick and wrap my head around the different oaths, and I simply don't get it. What are the traps? What are the selling points? What do specific Oaths enable you to do that others don't?

    I remember a lot of classes having choices that allowed you to cross roles. In 5e it seems to be down to much simpler choices, such as which weapons you use or individual spell choices instead of which class features you choose.

    If you want to have a similar discussion with other classes, regarding "player experience" and "choices made easy" as I learn the ins and outs of 5e feel free to message me at mhbjarkistef @ gmail com :)

    Happy playing, everyone!

  9. - Top - End - #339
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    McSkrag's Avatar

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    Default Re: Picking an Oath

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    I'm new to 5e, but have a 10 levels worth of DM experience for 4e. Maybe I'm a bit stuck in the old "some picks are good and others are trash" way of thinking. I remember some flavourful choices for 4e were traps, because they even tho some classes and features had a selling point, they didn't always deliver on the promise when it came down to actual gameplay.

    I'm trying to pick and wrap my head around the different oaths, and I simply don't get it. What are the traps? What are the selling points? What do specific Oaths enable you to do that others don't?

    I remember a lot of classes having choices that allowed you to cross roles. In 5e it seems to be down to much simpler choices, such as which weapons you use or individual spell choices instead of which class features you choose.

    If you want to have a similar discussion with other classes, regarding "player experience" and "choices made easy" as I learn the ins and outs of 5e feel free to message me at mhbjarkistef @ gmail com :)

    Happy playing, everyone!
    In 5E all the classes have been designed to be playable at all levels from 1st to 20th. Each class has a basic chassis that advances in power as you gain levels. You can customize the chassis by choosing an archetype/sub-class (Oaths for Paladins) that gives additional abilities and features.

    The basic chassis for each class is totally playable by itself - if you never used your subclass features you would still do fine. So the Oaths are more like different flavors of icing on the cake that lend themselves to different roles in the party.

    To greatly over-simplify:
    • Devotion is well rounded with with a good mix of offense and defense.
    • Ancients has some good control spells and eventually gives resistance to magical damage.
    • Vengeance is about offense and killing bosses.
    • Conquest uses fear for crowd control.
    • Redemption provides protection, support, and control to the rest of the party.
    • Crown supports and heals the party.


    Of course there is lots of overlap due to the basic Paladin chassis.

  10. - Top - End - #340
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    There are a few subclasses that might be considered tricky or problematic based on what type of game you're playing, but that's due to Oath mechanics. Playing Devotion with its ban on lying in a intrigue-heavy game, for instance, will give you problems. Ancients and Redemption pretty much prohibit playing in an Evil or murder-happy party.

    As far as actual combat abilities go, most paladins play pretty similarly. Charisma is definitely more important for a few of them, like Conquest, and some lean more towards offense or defense. But on the whole, you can pick any subclass for the flavor or one or two abilities in particular and not worry about making a bad choice. Every single Oath is good.
    Last edited by Nidgit; 2019-02-19 at 12:55 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #341
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    In 5e there are a lot fewer choices, and in general they're better balanced than in 3.5 or 4e. There are especially fewer traps, you're more likely to run into race, class, or feat options that are a bit above curve than ones that just don't deliver on their concept.

    There are some exceptions, and the spell lists in particular have some real stinkers - though at least there most spellcasting classes have options to trade out spells you find you aren't using. Paladin in particular can just memorize different spells each day.

    Anyway, subclass design is mostly pretty consistent, and paladin oaths are better than most in that regard. There really isn't a bad one the way you might call champion fighter or beastmaster ranger or undying warlock or elements monk bad, and even those aren't bad in anything like the same way as 4e vampire or 3e fighter.

    Oathbreaker is arguably a bit high key, if only because it happens to have good oath spells and good channel divinities and a good aura where as most oathes are somewhat underwhelming in at least one of those categories, but again it's not by so much as to be a problem.

    One thing that is sort of a problem with paladin is that they get a lot of their defining features in levels 1 to 6 (or 7 for oaths with strong subclass auras), and then it can feel like things slow down apart from big bumps at 11 and 20. Or at least, it can if you mostly use your spell slots for divine smite, which is fast and easy and convenient - decent extra damage on demand without component bother or extra actions or whatnot.

    But even if you're mostly smiting, the stat needs of paladin make multiclassing (which can often be delay asis) tricky. And if you do dig into your actual spell selection, you can often find significantly better uses for slots than divine smite, especially if you're willing to invest a bit more in cha, and once you start actally casting spells access to higher level paladin spells known starts to matter, and does a lot to fill in those previously somewhat empty seeming level gaps

  12. - Top - End - #342
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    Corran's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Just throwing my 2 cents regarding the discussion in the few previous posts.

    I'd like for ancients to have a better CD.

    And about devotion, I am thinking that it didn't get all the attention it needed mechanically. While I wouldn't necessarily call hypnotic pattern a thematically appropriate spell for the oath of devotion, I am thinking it needed sth very much like it. I dont know, compared to the not-so-nice oaths, devotion seems to be lacking some synergy between its features.
    Hacks!

  13. - Top - End - #343
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Why is the Calm Emotions spell listed in the level 2 spells?

    I can't find it on the paladin spell list and it's not an oath feature.

    I'm not sure if you'll see this five years on but thank you for the write up- it's been very helpful for me.

  14. - Top - End - #344
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    So I'm probably gonna roll a Paladin for the Avernus campaign (no spoilers if you can help it please) and for the first time in my memory- this particular DM has not banned Unearthed Arcana outright but instead decided he'll talk it out.

    With that in mind- are there any UA combinations I could be on the lookout for that work pretty nicely with Paladin? I'm contemplating those Gothic Lineages but I never really paid attention to UA races and subclasses on account of them never being allowed so that's mostly just because it's a recent one I remember.

    Most likely I'm going to play up being hard to kill if that helps. My current known party members are two Druids (a guy and his young daughter, I think she's like 10 so not expecting much) and my brother who will be rolling some manner of Celestial Warlock. I don't believe the Druids will focus on Wild Shape.

    If it helps my starting stats should be: 16, 13, 16, 13, 14, 17. Not applied to any specific stats yet mind you- those are just the scores.
    It's time for a preemptive retaliatory strike.

    Original online work - I've Been Reborn as a Dungeon Monster?
    Tvtropes

  15. - Top - End - #345
    Archmage in the Playground Moderator
     
    truemane's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Metamagic Mod: to paraphrase a 3rd level Paladin I once knew: Turn Unthread!
    (Avatar by Cuthalion, who is great.)

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