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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrin33 View Post
    The difference is relatively small for some though.
    Which is also a good thing :)

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    So when would you use Sacred Weapon? Obviously using it in combat is a waste of an action. Is it pretty much only worth activating if you have the drop on your enemies and can prepare it out of combat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    So when would you use Sacred Weapon? Obviously using it in combat is a waste of an action. Is it pretty much only worth activating if you have the drop on your enemies and can prepare it out of combat?
    It's not really a waste of an action when it gives you a great bonus to hit and will make you more effective in combat. Plus, it emits magical light, which can illuminate magical darkness, which helps out a hell of a lot against Drow and other nasties that use Darkness. And if your weapon wasn't magical, it becomes magical for the duration, which is amazing if you're fighting one of the many monsters that resist nonmagical weapon damage. So, if you're fighting something that resists magic damage, you're doubling your damage output, hitting more often, and keeping magical darkness from ruining your attacks.

    Even without considering the light effect, a level five Paladin with STR 18 and CHA 16 attacking an AC 18 creature that resists nonmagical weapon attacks will deal 2.3 times the damage with Sacred Weapon that he would deal without it. You make up for not hitting anything for one turn the very next turn.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Been studying the PHB to prep for my first paladin, got a few questions:

    1) Can you burn more than one spell slot at a time via Divine Smite? (aka can you nova?)
    2) The spell list includes a spell called "Destructive Smite" (PHB209), but it doesn't exist; however, there's a spell called "Destructive Wave" (PHB231) of the same level that I'm guessing is what was meant?
    3) All seven of the Paladin's "Smite" spells require concentration to hold it until your next successfull weapon attack. Doesn't it make it impossible to use these signature Paladin spells while also maintaining the Paladin's signature buff/debuff spells, like "Bless"? Isn't that... well, kinda messed up?

    It's not Paladin-specific, but since I'm designing him as a Polearm Master/Sentinel controller, I'm also wondering:

    4) Isn't the bonus action attack that Great Weapon Master feat gives you (the pseudo-cleave) redundant with the far better bonus action attack that Polearm Master grants?
    5) The Great Weapon Fighting style says you can reroll a die that lands on 1 or 2. Does that apply to all die rolls, like if you were using a maul (2d6) or adding additional dice through Divine Smite? On all 2H weapon attacks? All the time?

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    Been studying the PHB to prep for my first paladin, got a few questions:

    1) Can you burn more than one spell slot at a time via Divine Smite? (aka can you nova?)
    2) The spell list includes a spell called "Destructive Smite" (PHB209), but it doesn't exist; however, there's a spell called "Destructive Wave" (PHB231) of the same level that I'm guessing is what was meant?
    3) All seven of the Paladin's "Smite" spells require concentration to hold it until your next successfull weapon attack. Doesn't it make it impossible to use these signature Paladin spells while also maintaining the Paladin's signature buff/debuff spells, like "Bless"? Isn't that... well, kinda messed up?

    It's not Paladin-specific, but since I'm designing him as a Polearm Master/Sentinel controller, I'm also wondering:

    4) Isn't the bonus action attack that Great Weapon Master feat gives you (the pseudo-cleave) redundant with the far better bonus action attack that Polearm Master grants?
    5) The Great Weapon Fighting style says you can reroll a die that lands on 1 or 2. Does that apply to all die rolls, like if you were using a maul (2d6) or adding additional dice through Divine Smite? On all 2H weapon attacks? All the time?
    1) No you can't. It triggers when you hit something, and allows you to sacrifice one paladin spell slot.
    2) It's indeed an editing error, Destructive Wave is the correct spell.
    3) You can still use your Divine Smite class feature, it's a limiting factor but not to big. (My opinion)
    4) The bonus action of Great Weapon Master is a lot stronger actually, it uses your full weapon damage (likely 1d10 in your case) instead of 1d4. The only limiting factor is getting it to activate by killing an enemy or critting, but when you do it's stronger. In turns that you don't kill an enemy or crit you can still use your bonus action from Polearm Master. Also the second ability of Great Weapon Master is very powerful, especially with Polearm Master because of its guaranteed extra attack.
    5) All damage dice of damage you deal with a two-handed weapon, so using a Maul(2d6) and then using divine smite with a 1st level spell(2d8) would allow you to reroll the Maul's as well as the Divine Smite damage dice.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    1. Debatable, I would argue that you can't, but can stack a spell smite with divine smite.

    2. Yes, destructive wave=destructive smite.

    3. Yeah, this kind of sucks, it makes the smites a trade-off, or something to use after your concentration has already been broken.

    4. Yes, Pole-Arm Master is a non-bo with Great Weapon Master, which is fine because Pole-Arm Master is already annoyingly good anyway.

    5. It applies to all dice rules including critical hits, and smite damage. That being said, it still adds less damage than duelist in most combats.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Paladins can go nova by hitting more than once per round and adding a smite to each.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonicattorney View Post
    4. Yes, Pole-Arm Master is a non-bo with Great Weapon Master, which is fine because Pole-Arm Master is already annoyingly good anyway.
    It's actually quite powerful together, you just won't be able to use both the bonus actions at the same time. Advantage is that you have consistency from Polearm Master's bonus action with the occasional boost from Great Weapon Master's bonus action. The power attack from Great Weapon Master is very powerful along with Polearm Master because you get the bonus attack in every round regardless of whether you crit or kill.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    1) Can you burn more than one spell slot at a time via Divine Smite? (aka can you nova?)
    The other posters have everything already, but I'd like to reiterate that you can only burn one spell slot per hit. The language is extremely specific there, without any wiggle room.

    It says, "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one paladin spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon's damage."

    They didn't even use an indefinite article for munchkins to weasel around with. They specified the exact number of slots. One.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Problem is I'm only going to get 5 ABI/feats. (Variant Human Paladin w/Warlock dip)

    I definitely want to take Polearm Master and Sentinel, so that leaves 3. I'm starting with Str/Cha at 16/16, and would like to get them up as high as possible, but even without taking any more feats, best I can do is 18/20 (valuing Cha more because of Aura of Protection bonus to party saves).

    If I take Great Weapon Mastery (or Lucky or Heavy Armor Master), that'll drop my Str/Cha scores even more.

    Can't even get close to everything I want. My consolation is that at least I can get my core mechanic (PM+S) up by lvl 4, as long as I take Paladin 4 before any Warlock levels -- which means living without a good ranged attack till level 5/6.

    (There should be a guide dedicated just to dipping Warlock, with a section for each of the other 11 base classes.)

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    Problem is I'm only going to get 5 ABI/feats. (Variant Human Paladin w/Warlock dip)

    I definitely want to take Polearm Master and Sentinel, so that leaves 3. I'm starting with Str/Cha at 16/16, and would like to get them up as high as possible, but even without taking any more feats, best I can do is 18/20 (valuing Cha more because of Aura of Protection bonus to party saves).

    If I take Great Weapon Mastery (or Lucky or Heavy Armor Master), that'll drop my Str/Cha scores even more.

    Can't even get close to everything I want. My consolation is that at least I can get my core mechanic (PM+S) up by lvl 4, as long as I take Paladin 4 before any Warlock levels -- which means living without a good ranged attack till level 5/6.

    (There should be a guide dedicated just to dipping Warlock, with a section for each of the other 11 base classes.)
    As a variant human you get a free feat at level 1.

    Edit: Oops, forgot the warlock dip. Well, that's the price of this specific dip then.
    Last edited by Ferrin33; 2014-10-20 at 04:13 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    Can't even get close to everything I want. My consolation is that at least I can get my core mechanic (PM+S) up by lvl 4, as long as I take Paladin 4 before any Warlock levels -- which means living without a good ranged attack till level 5/6.
    Well, at least you have the STR to do well with throwing spears, so you're not completely hopeless at range. Throwing doesn't scale well with extra attacks but for levels 1-3 daggers and spears should serve you well as a backup option.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Well, at least you have the STR to do well with throwing spears, so you're not completely hopeless at range. Throwing doesn't scale well with extra attacks but for levels 1-3 daggers and spears should serve you well as a backup option.
    I plan to start with the following, as per the Paladin's Starting Equipment:
    - halberd
    - maul
    - 5 javelins (to tide me over till Eldritch Blast)

    Going to take Oath of Ancients, probably pact with Archfey for compatible flavor, and take a Blade boon to replace the mundane halberd or maul.

    Why do you say throwing doesn't scale with extra attacks? Not that it should matter for this build, but I thought throwing weapons is an attack like any other, and Extra Attack would apply.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    I plan to start with the following, as per the Paladin's Starting Equipment:
    - halberd
    - maul
    - 5 javelins (to tide me over till Eldritch Blast)

    Going to take Oath of Ancients, probably pact with Archfey for compatible flavor, and take a Blade boon to replace the mundane halberd or maul.

    Why do you say throwing doesn't scale with extra attacks? Not that it should matter for this build, but I thought throwing weapons is an attack like any other, and Extra Attack would apply.
    You need to use your non-action while moving to draw the second javelin in-between javelin throws. I wonder if your DM will let you sacrifice movement to draw multiple though.

  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    Problem is I'm only going to get 5 ABI/feats. (Variant Human Paladin w/Warlock dip)

    I definitely want to take Polearm Master and Sentinel, so that leaves 3. I'm starting with Str/Cha at 16/16, and would like to get them up as high as possible, but even without taking any more feats, best I can do is 18/20 (valuing Cha more because of Aura of Protection bonus to party saves).

    If I take Great Weapon Mastery (or Lucky or Heavy Armor Master), that'll drop my Str/Cha scores even more.

    Can't even get close to everything I want. My consolation is that at least I can get my core mechanic (PM+S) up by lvl 4, as long as I take Paladin 4 before any Warlock levels -- which means living without a good ranged attack till level 5/6.

    (There should be a guide dedicated just to dipping Warlock, with a section for each of the other 11 base classes.)
    obviously you cant have every last feat and bonus that you want, the whole philosophy of 5e is to get away from the crazy overpowered characters that you could get in past editions and reign things in.

    if it seems ridiculous to you, keep in mind that there isn't any text that includes epic level play yet, which would undoubtedly afford you another 3-4 feats and allow your character to be incredibly powerful when it's appropriate (in epic levels)
    My Characters:

    Rai'un - Monk(8)/Warlock(2) :: The Westfold: Homebrew persistent open world campaign RIP
    Myrion Farcaster - Rogue (no levels) :: The Adventurers Code Vice: homebrew RP campaign RIP
    Pellanistra Tuin'tarl - Paladin (10), Rogue (1) :: Drow underdark campaign RIP

    all the campaigns....they are died....

  16. - Top - End - #136
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    Why do you say throwing doesn't scale with extra attacks? Not that it should matter for this build, but I thought throwing weapons is an attack like any other, and Extra Attack would apply.
    Because you only get to interact with one item "for free", which means you can't draw 2-3 javelins per round even if you have enough Extra Attacks to throw them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    It's not really a waste of an action when it gives you a great bonus to hit and will make you more effective in combat. Plus, it emits magical light, which can illuminate magical darkness, which helps out a hell of a lot against Drow and other nasties that use Darkness. And if your weapon wasn't magical, it becomes magical for the duration, which is amazing if you're fighting one of the many monsters that resist nonmagical weapon damage. So, if you're fighting something that resists magic damage, you're doubling your damage output, hitting more often, and keeping magical darkness from ruining your attacks.

    Even without considering the light effect, a level five Paladin with STR 18 and CHA 16 attacking an AC 18 creature that resists nonmagical weapon attacks will deal 2.3 times the damage with Sacred Weapon that he would deal without it. You make up for not hitting anything for one turn the very next turn.
    So it's not worth using in combat if you already have a magic weapon. Good to know.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    So it's not worth using in combat if you already have a magic weapon. Good to know.
    It still gives a significant boost to hit chance which becomes stronger the higher the AC of the opponent.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    So it's not worth using in combat if you already have a magic weapon. Good to know.
    In actual play its one of the strongest boosts in the game. Most combats don't start in melee range, nor is it all that profitable to dash at enemies and get no attacks. So in many cases, it doesn't actually cost you an action in terms of losing attacks, take your move and than power up your sword.

    Remember that the bonus stacks, and does not replace the bonus for a magic sword, so if the combat lasts more than 2 rounds, it will be better to use the boost than not to. Unlike the vengeance ability it stacks with advantage, and a +5 bonus is worth more than advantage most of the time.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    So it's not worth using in combat if you already have a magic weapon. Good to know.
    The bonus to hit is still worth sacrificing one action. It will last all of or most of the encounter and can make an enormous difference when dealing with higher ACs. At level 20, with 20 STR/CHA, against 22 AC, it's the difference between missing half the time and hitting three quarters of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    The bonus to hit is still worth sacrificing one action. It will last all of or most of the encounter and can make an enormous difference when dealing with higher ACs. At level 20, with 20 STR/CHA, against 22 AC, it's the difference between missing half the time and hitting three quarters of the time.
    So *IF* you have 20 CHA, and *IF* the fight lasts three rounds, you'll break even. Actually no you won't because you'll get attacked on the first turn by enemies you might've killed had you just attacked instead. It'll be worth it if the fight lasts four or more rounds. Those sound like pretty big "if"s to me, especially when things like Advantage and Bless make sacrificing your action for Sacred Weapon worth less.
    Last edited by Strill; 2014-10-20 at 07:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    So *IF* you have 20 CHA, and *IF* the fight lasts at least three rounds, you'll break even. It won't become better unless the fight lasts four or more rounds. Those sound like pretty big "if"s to me.
    A 50% chance to hit becomes 75%, that's a 50% increase in output which pays off in 3 rounds. However, a 25% chance to hit against a high AC enemy it's a 100% increase, paying off in the round after. The higher the enemies' AC the greater the benefit of the ability, so to beat big monsters once every while it's a very powerful buff. Obviously you wouldn't use this if the fight would only take one or two rounds.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    So *IF* you have 20 CHA, and *IF* the fight lasts three rounds, you'll break even. Actually no you won't because you'll get attacked on the first turn by enemies you might've killed had you just attacked instead. It'll be worth it if the fight lasts four or more rounds. Those sound like pretty big "if"s to me, especially when things like Advantage and Bless make sacrificing your action for Sacred Weapon worth less.
    Most harder combats last between 4 and 10 rounds (in the mid/upper levels). So, its almost always good. Second, your leaving out opportunity attacks, commander's strike, Sentinel etc. 20 CHA is also likely the optimal devotion build anyway, since you don't need the STR bonus to hit in tougher fights, and the team save bonus is worth more than the +2 damage.

    If the enemy is hard to hit, it literally doubles your damage output. If the enemy is relatively easy to hit, it still ups your damage output by 30-40%.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    So *IF* you have 20 CHA, and *IF* the fight lasts three rounds, you'll break even. Actually no you won't because you'll get attacked on the first turn by enemies you might've killed had you just attacked instead. It'll be worth it if the fight lasts four or more rounds. Those sound like pretty big "if"s to me, especially when things like Advantage and Bless make sacrificing your action for Sacred Weapon worth less.
    Obviously you shouldn't use this in a fight you can win in two rounds. Channel Divinity powers are already pretty limited in use, so this is a boss encounter power no matter what. Like Ferrin said, it pays off more the higher your enemy's AC is, so it's extremely useful for taking on something big and nasty with a whole mess of HP. Yes, you have to sacrifice an action to use it, but if you've made it into the boss' lair and need to reliably deal some consistent damage to it, this is an excellent power to use. And it stacks with spells that require concentration to boot.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    So *IF* you have 20 CHA, and *IF* the fight lasts three rounds, you'll break even. Actually no you won't because you'll get attacked on the first turn by enemies you might've killed had you just attacked instead. It'll be worth it if the fight lasts four or more rounds. Those sound like pretty big "if"s to me, especially when things like Advantage and Bless make sacrificing your action for Sacred Weapon worth less.
    It's situational. If all your combats consist of walking up to the bad guys and everyone hitting each other with weapons until someone falls over dead, then yeah, sacrificing an action for Sacred Weapon is a bad option. If you've got good guys and bad guys dodging around stone pillars, taking advantage of cover, Readying actions for someone to pop up and/or trying to threaten bowmen into spending a round swapping out their bows for shield + sword--if you've got complex stuff like that going on it may not be a bad thing to spend a round casting Sacred Weapon on your longbow before popping out of cover to try a headshot on whoever's ugly mug is visible.

    Hammering away with weapons is boring.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    I think there are plenty of times, especially as a melee with limited range, that you'll squeeze in a sacred weapon activation without "wasting" an attack. I think it loses out on a vengeance paladin's bonus action advantage oath, unless you have a consistent source of advantage from a wolf totem barbarian or something, but if you wanted damage you'd pick vengeance anyway.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Pardon me if it's considered bad on this forum to necro old threads, but thought I should chime in, first to thank OP for the immense amount of work, and for great guide!

    Secondly (sorry for not reading all replies, because, well, too much, too long!), there are in my opinion several good RP-wise reasons why a paladin/warlock works remarkably well, with emphasis on lore rather than mechanics; granted, not every oath and patron match well, but even without tinkering, each one can work well.

    Oath of the Ancients works amazingly well with Archfey Patron, and such a character could be anything from NG, CG, or even CN.

    Oath of Vengeance works well with Archfey, too, since some fey are rather vengeful in nature, all without being outright evil.
    Arguably or not, it is a good match for Fiend Patron, too, if your pact with the fiend was struck unwillingly (maybe, if you were a tiefling as suggested, the pact was made unknowingly to you - maybe your parents traded your unborn soul to a fiend in return of a service, and now you serve Him/Her, whether you want it or not) or as the necessary evil to fight for greater good.

    Oathbreaker is a good choice for Fiend Patron, likewise for the new Undying Patron from SCAG. You're still a paladin, even if you were Oathbreaker. And you can remain evil all the same.

    Oath of the Devotion works really well with the Undying Light Patron, from the new Unearthed Arcana article.

    ----
    On another note, Paladin combining Protection Fighting Style with Alert feat and College of Lore Bard makes you, in my honest opinion, one of the best and multitalented "tank/support" characters. Defense is better for tank only when you're the only one in melee, but if there's even one more melee, with less potential AC than you can get with gear, Protection wins easily. And your initiative can pretty much guarantee you top the initiative count and get to act first, and even if not, if conscious, you get the chance to use your most tanky feature (reaction dependent) Protection style to save the squishy party member in ambush, for example. Cutting Words adds up to the potential of your targeted foes wanting to cut you down first. And then there are the spell slots. You can get 4th level slots a lot earlier and have a lot more to use for, say, divine smite. And the increased amount and diversity of spells from bard, especially with Additional Magical Secrets. Not to mention the skills and other benefits of Jack of all Trades (not only the fun of increasing initiative!)
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2015-11-22 at 12:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    I'm a bit confused on the ratings for Searing Smite and Wrathful Smite--Searing Smite seems rarely worth spending a slot on over just a regular Divine Smite, useful only if the target is weak to fire--something with a weak Con save probably won't have the HP to last multiple rounds against a decent party, which is the only time the damage over time really comes into play. The fact that they are d6s compared to divine smite's d8s should also be noted.

    On the other hand, Wrathful Smite I think deserves a little better rating because if you can nail a monster that is out-of-position with it, you can use your own positioning to severely limit its options. Using a reach weapon (any polearm, or a lance while on horseback) may allow you to smite them, then move away, and they won't be able to give chase as long as the Wisdom save is failed. And there are a lot of monsters with weak Wisdom saves. I suppose it does somewhat depend on how much your party is tracking positioning, but I've had a lot of good success with it, especially for melee-oriented monsters that I can catch while they're away from the "main melee group".

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Nu View Post
    snip
    I think those are both good points, but I think for Wrathful the effects should stay black. It's not reliably useful every fight, but it's great when you need it. I made a note that battlemat users will like it more because of the increased focus on position.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    My opinion is that both searing and thunderous smite are good enough spells, with some exceptional situational uses. As for wrathful smite, I think it is a very strong 1st level spell. It is kind of the equivalent of bane for a different battle. While bane can debuff up to three creatures, wrathful smite can really really debuff one creature (save it for a very strong creature). Granted, a strong enemy might have a good save ,(might), but if he fails it, then it's game over. Encounter won. Encounter made much more easy to be fair. Plus, it is a first level spell so you can spam it until it works, if you feel that the enemy has a decent chance of failing his wis save.

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