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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    PAM does several things for a Paladin. First off, you get the same bonus attack you'd be getting as if you TWF, so basically it is free TWF with your reach and the ability to provoke on ENTERING your 10', not simply trying to leave it. By this metric, it is strictly superior to TWF.
    Oh, absolutely. It overshadows every possible alternative. I'm not sure that there is any build that outdoes PAM in any way. Actually, the description of PAM in the feats section honestly undersells the feat.

    If this were my guide, my entry for DW would look something like this:

    Dual Wielder: With a one level fighter dip to pick up the Two-Weapon Fighting style, this is a viable option, especially after Improved Divine Smite kicks in. Three chances for a smite each round is nice. However, the Polearm Master feat offers superior damage per round, just as many chances to smite, the same AC boost, the ability to use a shield (and thus you can cast spells with a material component without stowing a weapon), and doesn't require delaying your Paladin progression by one level. If you really want to play a dual-wielding Paladin, go for it. It's not a complete trap option. But mechanically, PAM is an equal or better option in every way.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    From Asmodeus perspective, what's evil and good differ though don't they? You can be a person who works towards the 'greater good' (as you see it) but still be a thoroughly evil person who employs torture, murder and even genocide.

    Look at the Punisher or Azrael similar vigilante types that employ acts of utter evil and depravity for 'good ends'. Ditto with certain zealot crusaders and inquisitors (who toss babes on the pyre for the 'greater good'). It's so common as to be a trope of its own. They might be working for a good end (either subjectively, or objectively) but are prepared to utilise thoroughly evil means to get there. (Making them evilly aligned)

    I currently have a LE Vengance paladin of Bane who views Torm (LG God of Paladins) as the 'true' evil (my parents were martyred to Torm in the bay of Tantras and my brother died in his service). I honestly believe Torm is a deceptive monster, and blame him and his faith for betraying my family and killing them, leaving me an orphan. I fight for the 'greater good' (a fascist theocratic society with Bane at its head - which I am sure would finally provide Faerun with unity, cohesiveness and a lasting peace).

    Along the way I intend to employ genocide, holy wars and pogroms. I show no mercy to my enemies (particularly Tormites) and am highly intolerant of other faiths.

    I think you're being way too limiting with your 'no evil paladins' thing. There is plenty of room for an evil paladin who fights for a good cause using evil means or even an evil paladin who fights against a cause he simply views as evil (even though it's not).

    It's your campaign though so interpret it how you want.
    Unfortunately you are wrong. You see, in the setting of DnD, good and evil is not just a perspective but a defining aspect of a deity. Yeah the devil wants to give the humans more freedom and god wants us to be less free and be more restricted. Here it is a matter of perspective. But Asmodeus knows he is evil, he does evil for evil's sake. What is good and evil has clear definitions in the setting. You are confusing good and evil with good and evil so to speak. I am sure someone else can explain this better.


    Having said that, I don't see anything in the Paladin Oath itself that would clearlyindicate that good and evil there are objective rather than subjective.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    About the Dual Wielder being red, I didn't ask why it's not sky blue or whatever Polearm Master is rated as. I asked why is it red? I agree as much as every one of you that PAM is better, but just because PAM is better option, DW isn't that bad. Black or purple is still less than either of the blue ratings.
    In fact, as in EvilAnagram's other guides, purple has often indicated situational usefulness. I would say that DW should at least be purple because it can be good, situationally, not red as a "don't even think about it."
    A fighter dip for the Fighting Style rings "situational" to me.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2016-05-06 at 11:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Rysto View Post
    My fundamental disagreement here is that this is a binary thing. PAM is strictly better than DW, I agree. That doesn't make DW an outright bad, "you should never, ever take this option".

    You're rating DW on a Paladin on the same level as pumping INT, or multiclassing into Druid or Monk. You're saying that you can't build an effective character around the concept, and that's going too far. A DW Paladin can be effective. It's just not optimal.
    While I agree that a twf paladin can be effective, let me explain why I think the red rating is spot on. If for example you had a choice between pumping one stat by 2, or pumping one stat by 1, for your next ASI, and we had to rate these two options, I think that the latter should be rated red, exactly because it is strictly worse than the other option. That does not mean that the character who would pick to bump one stat by just 1 would be unplayble or ineffective. But mechanically speaking, it would be a bad choice, and not simply a bad choice, but one that should be avoided at all costs (speaking completely from a mechanics point of view), since there is a strictly better option. Well, at least that is my opinion, and how I justify the red rating.
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Rysto View Post
    It's not a complete trap option. But mechanically, PAM is an equal or better option in every way.
    Isn't that practically the definition of a trap option? Something that looks good but is completely overshadowed by another option?

    As an example, consider a hypothetical 3rd level spell Scorchball, that is identical to Fireball in every way except it does damage in d4s. Scorchball would still be a pretty good spell, but in a guide it should be rated red because the existence of Fireball makes Scorchball a trap option for the unwary.
    Last edited by Xetheral; 2016-05-07 at 06:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    Isn't that practically the definition of a trap option? Something that looks good but is completely overshadowed by another option?
    That pretty much makes everything other than PAM red for a Paladin, other than stuff that synergizes with it like Sentinel and Shield Master.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    Rage forbids you from casting or concentrating on a spell using it. Divine Smite is a class feature that uses the same resources as spells but is not a spell. I've actually seen this multiclass in play (Barbarian 2/Paladin 6 - the player dropped the campaign after graduation) and it's fairly god-tier. Throw in 3 levels of Champion, combined with Reckless Attack and Divine Smite, and you've got pretty awesome DPR. Have fun
    Okay, so someone please tell me why Totem Warrior (Bear) 3/Paladin 17 isn't used more often as a multiclass. Especially looking at the Oath of the Crown's Channel Divinity (No action, compelled duel, to creatures of your choice within 30 feet of you). I'm pretty sure that this is the best tank in 5E. Unless I'm wrong.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Rysto View Post
    That pretty much makes everything other than PAM red for a Paladin, other than stuff that synergizes with it like Sentinel and Shield Master.
    Not necessarily. True, PM is one of the best options for a paly, but a lot depends on what oath he chooses (as different oath features favour different fighting style), or on the build (singleclass or multiclass), or on the party composition. For example, if the party is heavily tailored towards melee, S&B along with shield master may be the best option. Or if in the case of a OoA paladin, a dex based S&B build can be as good as a PM build imo. Etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
    Okay, so someone please tell me why Totem Warrior (Bear) 3/Paladin 17 isn't used more often as a multiclass. Especially looking at the Oath of the Crown's Channel Divinity (No action, compelled duel, to creatures of your choice within 30 feet of you). I'm pretty sure that this is the best tank in 5E. Unless I'm wrong.
    I can imagine it is mostly because most of the paladin capstone abilities are really good to pass up. And ofc there are the aura improvements to consider, which a paladin gets at level 18. That is quite a feature. And ofc there is the delayed progression in your main class. Sure, a paladin is not a caster, but delaying the progression of your main class always hurts. Add the inability to concentrate on a spell while raging (and paladins do get access to some very good concentration spells). Rage also adds a bit more complexity to your action economy, which is bad. And ofc reckless attack offsets one of the main benefits you get from being a paladin (which is a good AC). And sure, resistance to all but psycich damage seems good, but between a decent AC (or even good AC when you dont use reckless attack) and good saves that already can reduce damage, there is enough redundancy to make you have second thoughts.
    Last edited by Corran; 2016-05-07 at 09:01 AM.
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    How does Shield Master synergize with PAM? Polearms are two-handed weapons, you cannot use a shield and a two-handed weapon at the same time.
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    How does Shield Master synergize with PAM? Polearms are two-handed weapons, you cannot use a shield and a two-handed weapon at the same time.
    Quarterstaves are versatile weapons that qualify for PAM. The best DPR Paladin build is actually Duelist + Quarterstaff + Shield + PAM, because the +2 duelist damage rider applies to the PAM bonus action attack.
    Last edited by Rysto; 2016-05-07 at 11:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Rysto View Post
    Quarterstaves are versatile weapons that qualify for PAM. The best DPR Paladin build is actually Duelist + Quarterstaff + Shield + PAM, because the +2 duelist damage rider applies to the PAM bonus action attack.
    Seems to me that Ranseur + PAM comes out higher average DPR with GW because you re-roll 1's and 2's, so your average weapon damage comes out to 6-8 as opposed to quarterstaff's, which comes out to 3-8 with the +2. Granted, the bonus attack comes out slightly ahead with GW 3-4 and duelist at 3-6, however an average of a point of damage more on a bonus attack isn't worth losing the extra minimum damage on the primary attacks, particularly not on a Paladin who is likely to use his bonus attack for a Smite spell instead of a bonus attack.
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    I'm not sure what a ranseur is. Is it from SCAG or EE?

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Rysto View Post
    I'm not sure what a ranseur is. Is it from SCAG or EE?
    From the Expanded Armory.
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Actually, it's somewhat irrelevant as I botched the math. If the DM does not allow the GWF to re-roll 1s and 2s on Improve Divine Smite damage then a glaive or halberd does 0.1 more DPR (in total, not per attack). If smite dice are allowed to be rerolled then the advantage increases to 2.35.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Rysto View Post
    That pretty much makes everything other than PAM red for a Paladin, other than stuff that synergizes with it like Sentinel and Shield Master.
    Not at all... other options have advantages over PAM depending on what you're trying to build the character to do from a mechanical standpoint. For example, the existence of PAM doesn't make War Caster a trap because the two feats do very different things.

    PAM completely overshadows DW (thus making DW a "trap") because no matter which of the mechanical advantages of DW you're grying to optimize (i.e. damage or AC), PAM would be a superior choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    From the Expanded Armory.
    Ah, thanks. However, this does worse DPR than a halberd or glave. I think that you misunderstand how GWF works. You don't get to keep rerolling 1s and 2s; you get one reroll and then must take the new result, even if it's a 1 or 2. Net result is that 2d4 averages 6 damage per hit while 1d10 averages 6.3.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    About the Dual Wielder being red, I didn't ask why it's not sky blue or whatever Polearm Master is rated as. I asked why is it red? I agree as much as every one of you that PAM is better, but just because PAM is better option, DW isn't that bad. Black or purple is still less than either of the blue ratings.
    In fact, as in EvilAnagram's other guides, purple has often indicated situational usefulness. I would say that DW should at least be purple because it can be good, situationally, not red as a "don't even think about it."
    A fighter dip for the Fighting Style rings "situational" to me.
    That's sort of true. TWF, as in holding two weapons not the style, is situational. Levels 1-3 it can be the highest damage, but more importantly TWF allows any Paladin higher nova if need be. A Protection Shield Master Paladin has an option for 3 Smites if they want, by bringing 2 light weapons around as backup. So there are situations where it adds to the build.

    DW, however, is the cost of a feat to marginally improve a build focused on bonus attacks. The Fighter dip is just to match the damage of a PAM build and you're a level behind to do it. At Fighter1/Paladin4 when you just get DW, a pure Paladin5 has PAM, Defense, and Extra Attack, doing the exact same thing and doing it quicker. There isn't a situation where taking DW as a feat adds to the build that another feat doesn't do better.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Also, as an alternative to the Warlock2 dip for a ranged attack, just pick up the feat Magic Initiate and you can pick up EB. Granted, you don't get the CHA bonus to damage, but you also don't lose two levels.

    Mind you, feats are bigger in 5e than 3.5, but still... viable if you absolutely, positively need a ranged attack on the cheap.
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    I would still argue that, for a variant human, DW is great utility feat as the extra feat. I agree Dual Wielder might not be worth Ability Score Increase, but for human extra feat it just might be worth it. Kind of a middle-ground for improving both offense and defense. Even if I chose to use a shield every now and then, I could just use shield occasionally as a improvised weapon if I wanted to. (since a shield is less likely a light weapon, DW helps overcoming that problem)
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    I would still argue that, for a variant human, DW is great utility feat as the extra feat. I agree Dual Wielder might not be worth Ability Score Increase, but for human extra feat it just might be worth it. Kind of a middle-ground for improving both offense and defense. Even if I chose to use a shield every now and then, I could just use shield occasionally as a improvised weapon if I wanted to. (since a shield is less likely a light weapon, DW helps overcoming that problem)
    You'd still do better with PAM, since the quarterstaff+shield combo is better as an offense and defense middle ground, +2 AC and 1d8+(3 to 5) + 1d4 + (3 to 5) with PAM vs +1 AC and 2d8+(3 to 5) with DW. Plus you would have the shield all the time and you could use Defense, Protection, or Dueling as a style.

    Dual Wield could have, and arguably should have, been the feat for mixing offense and defense, but they neutered TWF and DW pretty bad for reasons I can only guess at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saggo View Post
    Dual Wield could have, and arguably should have, been the feat for mixing offense and defense, but they neutered TWF and DW pretty bad for reasons I can only guess at.
    Probably because they made the style so much more accessible than in 3.5 and removed the significant to-hit penalties, both of which are significant buffs. It would have been a fine trade-off if they hadn't then gone and made other, better ways to access a bonus action attack.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Saggo View Post
    You'd still do better with PAM, since the quarterstaff+shield combo is better as an offense and defense middle ground, +2 AC and 1d8+(3 to 5) + 1d4 + (3 to 5) with PAM vs +1 AC and 2d8+(3 to 5) with DW. Plus you would have the shield all the time and you could use Defense, Protection, or Dueling as a style.

    Dual Wield could have, and arguably should have, been the feat for mixing offense and defense, but they neutered TWF and DW pretty bad for reasons I can only guess at.
    Quarterstaff + Shield is just outright ridiculous thought for a Paladin.
    Some people pay a lot of attention to how their characters might look like. Plated knight holding a wooden staff and a shield doesn't visualize very impressive to me.

    But, enough of this. Clearly this discussion isn't going anywhere when all people care about is maximum possible results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Quarterstaff + Shield is just outright ridiculous thought for a Paladin.
    Some people pay a lot of attention to how their characters might look like. Plated knight holding a wooden staff and a shield doesn't visualize very impressive to me.
    If it helps the mental picture my paladin is a gnome riding a dog with a shield and staff. I picture him wielding the staff more like a lance.

    I'm picturing Sir Didymus from the labrynth movie.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Quarterstaff + Shield is just outright ridiculous thought for a Paladin.
    Some people pay a lot of attention to how their characters might look like. Plated knight holding a wooden staff and a shield doesn't visualize very impressive to me.

    But, enough of this. Clearly this discussion isn't going anywhere when all people care about is maximum possible results.
    That's fine for you, but you don't get to decide that for anyone else. Someone might like the concept of a protector guarding a forest civilization with his shield and ancestral battle staff and you just told them that was ridiculous. Everyone will have their own opinion on what concept is good or ridiculous. Because of that fact, and the fact that this is a public forum, the best common ground when absent context is unbiased analysis of the mechanics as they currently stand. Which inherently means optimization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    Probably because they made the style so much more accessible than in 3.5 and removed the significant to-hit penalties, both of which are significant buffs. It would have been a fine trade-off if they hadn't then gone and made other, better ways to access a bonus action attack.
    Or that they gave Dueling +2 damage, making both sword & shield and two-handers both that much more appealing, that TWF doesn't scale very well with other features (including Hex and Hunter's Mark since they take a bonus action to get started), and that you can get more out of just +2 to Dex than DW. I really want to know what their thought process was.
    Last edited by Saggo; 2016-05-08 at 11:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Quarterstaff + Shield is just outright ridiculous thought for a Paladin.
    Some people pay a lot of attention to how their characters might look like. Plated knight holding a wooden staff and a shield doesn't visualize very impressive to me.
    Personally I've always liked the image of plate armor with with a quarterstaff (often a war staff of some kind, capped with metal), although that's usually with a two-handed grip. Quarterstaff and shield is pretty close to spear and shield, though, and that's a pretty standard trope. Also, if we're talking a spellcasting knight, a wizard's staff and shield is in many ways more intimidating than a sword. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    But, enough of this. Clearly this discussion isn't going anywhere when all people care about is maximum possible results.
    Given that the thread is an optimization guide, doesn't that make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saggo View Post
    Or that they gave Dueling +2 damage, making both sword & shield and two-handers both that much more appealing, that TWF doesn't scale very well with other features (including Hex and Hunter's Mark since they take a bonus action to get started), and that you can get more out of just +2 to Dex than DW. I really want to know what their thought process was.
    If TWF was the only source of a bonus action attack, it would be much more compelling for certain builds, even with the other drawbacks and competition for bonus actions.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Please the quarter staff is ONLY being used to take advantage of a loophole in the rule. If it wasn't versatile, or they wrote in that you had to wield the polearm with two hands to get the bonus attack, then this entire conversation wouldn't be happening. What DM in their right mind would allow you the bonus attack with the other end of the staff when wielded in one hand... or the other benefit of AoO when they get within your reach... Every other weapon is explicitly a two-handed weapon with the reach property... they didn't even include the spear (the first polearm) in the feat.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting_Ferret View Post
    Please the quarter staff is ONLY being used to take advantage of a loophole in the rule. If it wasn't versatile, or they wrote in that you had to wield the polearm with two hands to get the bonus attack, then this entire conversation wouldn't be happening. What DM in their right mind would allow you the bonus attack with the other end of the staff when wielded in one hand... or the other benefit of AoO when they get within your reach... Every other weapon is explicitly a two-handed weapon with the reach property... they didn't even include the spear (the first polearm) in the feat.
    That they didn't include the spear is indeed an oddity. When I first read it, I wouldn't have been surprised if they'd changed it to spear in the errata. But they didn't. They clearly specified the quarterstaff as a possibility, and given that it has clear advantages and disadvantages compared to the larger polearms when used in this respect (the advantage of being usable with a shield and being a simple weapon, the disadvantages of lower damage, lack of reach, and not being compatible with GWM's second effect), I fail to see how this qualifies as a 'loophole'. As for the aesthetics of quarterstaff and shield, that's entirely subjective. I'd call using a rapier and a shield silly, but that's not reason to down-rate it on an optimisation guide, which should deal with the rules as they are written, not as we would like them to be written.

    And what DM in their right mind? Me.
    Last edited by TheTeaMustFlow; 2016-05-09 at 08:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby Frost
    `This is just the beginning, Citizens! Today we have boiled a pot who's steam shall be seen across the entire galaxy. The Tea Must Flow, and it shall! The banner of the British Space Empire will be unfurled across a thousand worlds, carried forth by the citizens of Urn, and before them the Tea shall flow like a steaming brown river of shi-*cough*- shimmering moral fibre!`

  28. - Top - End - #208
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Aesthetics are always subjective, but for once I'm with Ferret. Shield and quarter staff is dumb, and I suspect that most people who pick it are justifying the silly aesthetics in order to take advantage of the nice numbers. It simple is not the same as a shield and spear. Moreover, it's doubly silly that it is a better build than shield and long sword, which should be the best-supported sword and board paladin.

    Rapier and shield is certainly nonstandard, but nowhere near as silly. If the shield is a buckler or other light shield, it actually fits fine with some actual historical practice. The big problem with rapiers is that the image is based upon either movies, or modern fencing, or their use as a civilian side-arm, all of which don't use shields.

  29. - Top - End - #209
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting_Ferret View Post
    What DM in their right mind would allow you the bonus attack with the other end of the staff when wielded in one hand... or the other benefit of AoO when they get within your reach...
    Considering that Crawford has said it works and they didn't errata it, your claim that DMs who rule that way are out of their minds seems a bit extreme. One is welcome to ignore Crawford (I often do at my table) but I would never argue that those who do choose to follow the lead designer are unreasonable.

    Also, the tweet and the lack of errata make it pretty clear that it's not a loophole at this point... it's apparently both RAW and RAI.

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by smcmike View Post
    Aesthetics are always subjective, but for once I'm with Ferret. Shield and quarter staff is dumb, and I suspect that most people who pick it are justifying the silly aesthetics in order to take advantage of the nice numbers. It simple is not the same as a shield and spear. Moreover, it's doubly silly that it is a better build than shield and long sword, which should be the best-supported sword and board paladin.

    Rapier and shield is certainly nonstandard, but nowhere near as silly. If the shield is a buckler or other light shield, it actually fits fine with some actual historical practice. The big problem with rapiers is that the image is based upon either movies, or modern fencing, or their use as a civilian side-arm, all of which don't use shields.
    Whether staff and shield is superior to sword and shield is highly debatable, since sword and shield does more damage* and requires less feat investment. Sword and shield is already perfectly well supported, given that they have the best fighting style** and the excellent Shield Master feat (which a Staff user can also benefit from, but they have less ASI/feat room with which to do so, and have competition for the bonus action making part of one of their feats redundant).

    *Admittedly the staff can match the sword for damage with Shillelagh, but that involves blowing another feat or dipping levels.
    **Assuming one does not let Great Weapon Fighting reroll smite dice, as per Sage Advice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby Frost
    `This is just the beginning, Citizens! Today we have boiled a pot who's steam shall be seen across the entire galaxy. The Tea Must Flow, and it shall! The banner of the British Space Empire will be unfurled across a thousand worlds, carried forth by the citizens of Urn, and before them the Tea shall flow like a steaming brown river of shi-*cough*- shimmering moral fibre!`

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