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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTeaMustFlow View Post
    Whether staff and shield is superior to sword and shield is highly debatable, since sword and shield does more damage* and requires less feat investment. Sword and shield is already perfectly well supported, given that they have the best fighting style** and the excellent Shield Master feat (which a Staff user can also benefit from, but they have less ASI/feat room with which to do so, and have competition for the bonus action making part of one of their feats redundant).

    *Admittedly the staff can match the sword for damage with Shillelagh, but that involves blowing another feat or dipping levels.
    **Assuming one does not let Great Weapon Fighting reroll smite dice, as per Sage Advice.
    Fair enough and good points. You're right, sword and board is well supported (a huge improvement over 3.5, in my opinion).
    It's mostly an aesthetic issue for me.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    It is superior to sword and shield in the fact that you get AoO more often(weapon die, plus modifier, plus additional damage, and smitable), due to the wording in the PAM feat that allows you to get attacks when an opponent enters your range, as opposed to leave it, as normal, which you can also get. You also get the benefit of a bonus action attack that deals damage (1d4), that adds your modifier, and can also add smite damage, and any other magical bonus damage as well...basically negating an entire fighting style (dual wielding, which paladins don't get) and does so with one weapon, a rather common one at that, all while also granting the use of a shield.

    Yes shield master exists...but it does no damage with the bonus attack action. It can knock a target prone or back...that's it. It's a good ability.

    PAM with a quarter staff is acting like a double strike or dual wielding (with the weapon style baked in). You get all of the benefits without a cost of the other two-handed polearms. I can care less about the attack of opportunity, unless you always move to get it. The bonus attack that a two-handed weapon could get, from a one-handed weapon is the ridiculous part.
    Last edited by Fighting_Ferret; 2016-05-09 at 03:58 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Bear in mind that to break out of a successful wrathful smite requires an ability check (ie - no proficiency bonus) with disadvantage (because being frightened gives you disadvantage to ability checks). And you have to spend an action to do it.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Well said, couldn't have done it better. Besides, DPR is not an Arms Race.
    DPR is absolutely an arms race. One guy in the party doing triple the damage of his teammates gets annoying real fast. No DM in their right mind is going to let one PC hog the spotlight. Said DM will be increasing the difficulty of the encounters hence forth and those creatures will be gunning for the min/maxed PC.

    Min/maxing is fun from a theorycrafting point of view, but not in actual gameplay. Does one enjoy playing a new videogame where, within the first hour of starting the game, used cheats to give yourself infinite money and set yourself to level 99? 5e is not a hard game to break, not even remotely.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    The only problem with quarterstaff/shield isn't the asthetics (remember the samurai who used a bokken instead of a katana? Kinda like that), it's the lack of control ability.

    Quarterstaff is not a reach weapon. PAM lets you threaten when someone ENTERS your reach, not just leaves. You have a 10' range of 'nope' with a more typical polearm which you don't have with a quarterstaff. Combine with Sentinel, and you have an ability that can NEGATE any opponent action because he can't reach anyone to hit. That alone is worth ~1 point of damage per round, IMO. AC becomes irrelevant if your opponent cannot get into position to hit you in the first place.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2016-05-11 at 10:36 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    [*]Beacon of Hope*:
    Just a heads up, there's no descriptive text for this spell. Don't know if that's intentional or not.

    Also, it might be worth mentioning how the spell ratings change if one is lucky enough to acquire a Holy Avenger.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    The only problem with quarterstaff/shield isn't the asthetics (remember the samurai who used a bokken instead of a katana? Kinda like that), it's the lack of control ability.

    Quarterstaff is not a reach weapon. PAM lets you threaten when someone ENTERS your reach, not just leaves. You have a 10' range of 'nope' with a more typical polearm which you don't have with a quarterstaff. Combine with Sentinel, and you have an ability that can NEGATE any opponent action because he can't reach anyone to hit. That alone is worth ~1 point of damage per round, IMO. AC becomes irrelevant if your opponent cannot get into position to hit you in the first place.
    Granted, wooden swords and/or one handed staves can be flavorful. I take back my words against it being ridiculous.

    However, I disagree with quarterstaff not working like the rest of the listed polearms.
    5 ft. reach is just as much a reach as is 10 ft. reach. Whether your reach was 5 or 10 feet, anyone entering thar reach provokes an attack from you if you have PAM.

    What I do find arrogant is that somehow, while wielding a staff one handed, you could wield it in a way to deliver a punch with the butt-end as well as with the "main" end. Doesn't compute, not one bit. Honestly, regardless of what tweets or whatnot have said, the bonus action attack should be possible with a quarterstaff only if you wielded it two-handed.
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    To be honest, I don't really understand how the bonus attack is supposed with a 10ft reach, either.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Granted, wooden swords and/or one handed staves can be flavorful. I take back my words against it being ridiculous.

    However, I disagree with quarterstaff not working like the rest of the listed polearms.
    5 ft. reach is just as much a reach as is 10 ft. reach. Whether your reach was 5 or 10 feet, anyone entering thar reach provokes an attack from you if you have PAM.
    No, that's not quite right. With a 5' reach, you hit someone before they hit you. With a 10' reach, you hit them, they stop dead in their tracks, unable to hit anything. That's the difference. And it is a big one, because as long as you can keep them from hitting you, it gives you the equivalent of an arbitrary amount of AC. Actually, even better than that, because even with arbitrary AC, you can still be hit on a nat 20.

    What I do find arrogant is that somehow, while wielding a staff one handed, you could wield it in a way to deliver a punch with the butt-end as well as with the "main" end. Doesn't compute, not one bit. Honestly, regardless of what tweets or whatnot have said, the bonus action attack should be possible with a quarterstaff only if you wielded it two-handed.
    Call the bonus attack a 'back-swing' if you like.
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  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimcair View Post
    Unfortunately you are wrong. You see, in the setting of DnD, good and evil is not just a perspective but a defining aspect of a deity. Yeah the devil wants to give the humans more freedom and god wants us to be less free and be more restricted. Here it is a matter of perspective. But Asmodeus knows he is evil, he does evil for evil's sake. What is good and evil has clear definitions in the setting. You are confusing good and evil with good and evil so to speak. I am sure someone else can explain this better.
    Yeah but in 5E, a Paladin can do objective acts of Evil (even though he himself thinks they are good) and not 'fall' or become an oathbreaker.

    Heck, Vengance Paladins are actually fulfilling their oaths by employing torture, murder and genocide and tossing screaming babes onto the pyre. 'By any means necessary' and 'my sworn foes get no mercy' remember.

    The Paladin thinks he's doing the right thing. Subjectively he thinks that his methods are justified 'for the greater good'. He's certainly fulfilling his oath, and clearly keeps his powers.

    He probably even thinks he is good aligned and a good person, doing what needs to be done for the greater good.

    Objectively however (on his character sheet) there is a big fat 'E' in the alignment section.
    Last edited by Malifice; 2016-05-12 at 11:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    No, that's not quite right. With a 5' reach, you hit someone before they hit you. With a 10' reach, you hit them, they stop dead in their tracks, unable to hit anything. That's the difference. And it is a big one, because as long as you can keep them from hitting you, it gives you the equivalent of an arbitrary amount of AC. Actually, even better than that, because even with arbitrary AC, you can still be hit on a nat 20.
    Being hit at 10'reach does not stop the movement, unless you also have the Sentinel feat. You're still as much in danger of getting hit after you've attacked on approach as you would be with 5'reach

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Call the bonus attack a 'back-swing' if you like.
    If I was able to do a 'back-swing' with a staff, why couldn't I do that with any other weapon as well? It doesn't make sense.
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Being hit at 10'reach does not stop the movement, unless you also have the Sentinel feat. You're still as much in danger of getting hit after you've attacked on approach as you would be with 5'reach
    I think that was his original premise, that when combo'd with Sentinel, the lack of reach is costly.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Saggo View Post
    I think that was his original premise, that when combo'd with Sentinel, the lack of reach is costly.
    Ah, never mind me then, must've missed that post. Or just forgot it.
    My 5th Edition D&D Homebrew:
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Saggo View Post
    I think that was his original premise, that when combo'd with Sentinel, the lack of reach is costly.
    This, pretty much.

    While a Paladin can dish out the deeps, using Sentinel + Polearm Mastery can also turn one into a beastly melee control. Pair well with various Smite debuff spells and you can be effective at lockdown for a party to focus-fire down. Very effective at single big-boss type encounters.
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Saggo View Post
    I think that was his original premise, that when combo'd with Sentinel, the lack of reach is costly.
    Yes but taking all those feats are also costly and the more you see bigger enemies with longer reach it becomes less OP (though still very useful). For a fighter the cost is not so big but for a paladin it is a viable choice but has a real cost because you are giving up toughness due to loss of con, cha bonus which is used for a lot of things on a paladin, or both.

    Not all paladins are going to want to spend that cost to get sentinel.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Yeah but in 5E, a Paladin can do objective acts of Evil (even though he himself thinks they are good) and not 'fall' or become an oathbreaker.

    Heck, Vengance Paladins are actually fulfilling their oaths by employing torture, murder and genocide and tossing screaming babes onto the pyre. 'By any means necessary' and 'my sworn foes get no mercy' remember.
    While I don't want to rehash this discussion again.... I do want to note that I *strongly* disagree with it.

    To cherry pick 'by any means necessary' while ignoring the rest of the entry is disingenuous. Your "qualms" can't get in the way. Torture, murder, genocide, and tossing infants into fires is *WAY* *WAY* past 'qualms'. Those are blatantly and flagrantly vile and evil acts....the tenet does not somehow justify war crimes.

    And 'show no mercy' is not the same as 'go ahead and torture and abuse'. And you again used very slanted editing. It says no mercy for "the Wicked". It then says normal foes may get mercy, but not sworn enemies. But even that does not condone torture and genocide.


    Now, if it is an Evil PC, then doing these evil acts may fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coredump View Post
    While I don't want to rehash this discussion again.... I do want to note that I *strongly* disagree with it.

    To cherry pick 'by any means necessary' while ignoring the rest of the entry is disingenuous. Your "qualms" can't get in the way. Torture, murder, genocide, and tossing infants into fires is *WAY* *WAY* past 'qualms'. Those are blatantly and flagrantly vile and evil acts....the tenet does not somehow justify war crimes.
    I can assure you, my LE Paladin has no such qualms. Genocide and torture are necessary evils to bring about the 'greater good' for Faerun - united under the benevolent rule of Bane.

    One Nation, one God, one King. Hail Bane!

    He doesnt harm children though. He's not a monster ;)

    And 'show no mercy' is not the same as 'go ahead and torture and abuse'. And you again used very slanted editing. It says no mercy for "the Wicked". It then says normal foes may get mercy, but not sworn enemies. But even that does not condone torture and genocide.
    My sworn enemies are the 'evil' church of Torm and his 'false' Paladins. Infidels that deserve death the lot of them. Also Cyricists. The usurpers worshipers are apostates that spread chaos and lies. Neither of them deserve or will recieve any mercy. A holy pogrom will cleanse them all from Faerun.

    I particularly hate Torm. I know his lies, having once been a paladin of the church of Torm myself. He is a false god, and I am devoted to exposing his lies and evil for the world to see. Bane showed me the truth.

    Hail Bane!

    Now, if it is an Evil PC, then doing these evil acts may fit.
    Oh I utterly agree. If a LN or LG Paladin engaged in genocide or murder and threw his oath at me as justification (and that he was doing what needed to be done for the greater good), I would solemly nod in agreement that he is indeed fulfilling his oath, and then pick up an eraser, lean forward, rub out whatever he had written in the alignment section of his character sheet, and write 'LE' in the same space.

    Then the campaign would continue as normal.
    Last edited by Malifice; 2016-05-13 at 11:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Yes. I love the article. So does my oath of the ancient stout halfling paladin who is chaotic neutral and after bashing his worthy foes rips their hearts out and eats it to gain their strength and honor them.

    "You say you cannot hear me because of my size? Well then... I shall yell into your ear after you lie dead upon the ground."

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Yes but taking all those feats are also costly and the more you see bigger enemies with longer reach it becomes less OP (though still very useful). For a fighter the cost is not so big but for a paladin it is a viable choice but has a real cost because you are giving up toughness due to loss of con, cha bonus which is used for a lot of things on a paladin, or both.

    Not all paladins are going to want to spend that cost to get sentinel.
    It is a specific build, not something every Paladin will do. The major argument is that if you take Sentinel and PAM, you'll do better using a reach weapon (in regards to battlefield control), rather than keeping the quarterstaff for Dueling and a shield.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonicattorney View Post
    I do think people are doing it for mechanical reasons. I do think it is very hard to justify. I don't think selling your soul for power is a very Paladin-like thing to do. I don't think a Paladin of Ancients would worship or deal with Cthulhu or That Which Lurks, or any Fiend.

    Exactly one of the three angels has a Flamestrike spell-like ability, in which a pillar of divine fire (half radiant/half fire) hits players. That is the only celestial fire ability, so no, I don't view Fireball (Balors and Pit Fiends have this spell though) or Wall of Fire as appropriate.

    Moreover, gaining temporary HP by killing creature and feeding off their life force, doens't sound very "Good" to me, no matter how you try to reflavor it.
    I tend to agree with you.

    I don't think I'd have a problem with a Oath of the Ancients paladin multiclassing into an Archfey warlock though.

    Also, Paladins don't need to be Good anymore. 😜
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    I swear, 1 handed quarterstaves are 5e's spiked chain.


    BRING BACK ALIGNMENT LANGUAGES!!!

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    I could totally see however, A young man/woman forming a pack with a demon, then having a change of heart. Then swear to work for good as pittance to try to redeem themselves and maybe regain their soul. (warlock 3/paladin X)

    But starting as a paladin, the only thing I'd see thats really flavorful and not silly is the ancients + archfey.

    MAYBE you could sell an oath of vengeance making a deal with the devil so to speak, in hopes to combat other evils. I might buy that, but you would eventually have to confront your patron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    I tend to agree with you.

    I don't think I'd have a problem with a Oath of the Ancients paladin multiclassing into an Archfey warlock though.
    I strongly agree with both. At 3rd level when my paladin swore his Oath of the Ancients, our DM had me roleplay the ritual in the presence of druids of the Land Circle, and the Archfey Titania (the Summer Queen, Good fey lady as I recall) appeared, beckoning my paladin to become her appointed Summer Knight.

    So, yes, if he had had the chance of multiclassing into warlock, he might've taken Archfey as his Matron, because he already was her Chosen. Feys range from good to evil in alignment so Feylocks are among the most plausible combinations with a paladin, especially Oath of the Ancients paladin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOrcNextDoor View Post
    I could totally see however, A young man/woman forming a pack with a demon, then having a change of heart. Then swear to work for good as pittance to try to redeem themselves and maybe regain their soul. (warlock 3/paladin X)

    But starting as a paladin, the only thing I'd see thats really flavorful and not silly is the ancients + archfey.

    MAYBE you could sell an oath of vengeance making a deal with the devil so to speak, in hopes to combat other evils. I might buy that, but you would eventually have to confront your patron.
    I think Oath of Devotion and an Undying Warlock go together. You totally could have a God of Life be your patron for that which fits just fine with your typical "scare off the undead" Devotion Paladin.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    Divine Health: Well, not every feature can be amazing. Still, tell werewolves to suck it.
    Help me out here. As I read it in the Monster Manual, lycanthropy is a curse, not a disease.

    Why would a paladin tell werewolves to suck it?

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    Help me out here. As I read it in the Monster Manual, lycanthropy is a curse, not a disease.

    Why would a paladin tell werewolves to suck it?
    Because I made this before I had a Monster Manual. It's updated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    Because I made this before I had a Monster Manual. It's updated.
    Haha. Touche. :) Just checking.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    your first level spells colors might be a little argumentative. Thunderous smite should be sky blue or blue because its damage is only one step down from divine smite but with thunderous smite you can use constantly until you use a different concentration spell or fail it's con save. you can also combine this spell with divine smite to add more damage. you also need to remember that paladins don't have a whole lot of spell slots.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by jake6898 View Post
    your first level spells colors might be a little argumentative. Thunderous smite should be sky blue or blue because its damage is only one step down from divine smite but with thunderous smite you can use constantly until you use a different concentration spell or fail it's con save. you can also combine this spell with divine smite to add more damage. you also need to remember that paladins don't have a whole lot of spell slots.
    Most Smite spells, including Thunderous, only work on the first weapon attack.

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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Saggo View Post
    Most Smite spells, including Thunderous, only work on the first weapon attack.
    More to the point, on the first hit after you've cast the smite spell. The effect doesn't end if you attack and miss.
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    Default Re: Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by jake6898 View Post
    your first level spells colors might be a little argumentative. Thunderous smite should be sky blue or blue because its damage is only one step down from divine smite but with thunderous smite you can use constantly until you use a different concentration spell or fail it's con save. you can also combine this spell with divine smite to add more damage. you also need to remember that paladins don't have a whole lot of spell slots.
    As others have said, Thunderous Smite applies its damage once per casting, on the first hit after you cast it. If it applied it to every hit in the time frame, it would absolutely be sky-blue.

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