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Thread: Handicapping Tier One
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2014-10-07, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Handicapping Tier One
As a player and general strategist, it is almost impossible for me to enjoy things without optimizing the the best of my logical ability. To the left, I dislike min/maxing as it feels like cheating to build a glass cannon and then take away the glass part.
On to the thought experiment;
What choices or themes could be made early on with a Tier One (I'm specifically thinking Cleric, but gladly solicit other classes) so that I would get the thrill of struggling later on to make the right choices to be Tier Two/Three. I wouldn't mind also having a quick "save the TPK" in the back pocket just in case.
Spoiler: From a conversation I had with a friend.A very attractive man can try to pick up women with bad lines. But that doesn't really count because he knows he can always stop that and use actual charm when he wants.
However, that same handsome man who gets sprayed by a skunk prior to going out to pick up women will have to actually struggle.
I'm sure that a Wizard could just take bad spells or have a fun but weak theme. My Witch is pretty powerful, but I play her to only do support and use all the broken things when stuff goes bad.
I'm not looking for how to play a good class poorly, I want a good class that is given such a restriction that it needs to be played well in order to work.Avatar of Vlad Taltos and Loiosh by Bradakhan
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2014-10-07, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
The only thing I can think of that would work is restricting the Cleric to a single general spell slot and a single domain spell slot per level. Either that or limiting the spells they can cast each day to a similar count. That may be interesting, in fact.
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2014-10-07, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
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2014-10-07, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
Be a Wizard Specialist Enchanter and Ban Conjuration and Transmutation. You're still tier one, but you've gone out of your way to restrict the game breaking tricks most every other wizard uses.
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2014-10-07, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
I played an Oracle that was only granted Necromancy(magic of life/death) themed spells. Similar thematic restrictions on spells known/prepared/learned/... would have a similar impact.
Sidenote:
Minmaxing is closer to buying a glass rifle and using the remaining money to upgrade the material to iron. With the same money they could have bought a glass cannon instead (pure maxing of strengths) or and adamantine crossbow (pure min-ing of weaknesses).
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2014-10-07, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
Re: Handicapping Tier One
You could revise Clerics along the lines of Priests of specific mythoi in 2ndEd AD&D: All spells are grouped under domains, and depending on which deity you worship you have major (all the way to 7th/9th level) access to some domains, minor (up to 3rd) access to others, and no access at all to some domains. Armour, weapons and granted powers balance things up, but basically you don't automatically have access to the whole divine spellbook at every level, and have to chose a more limited role from the off. Downside is that if you want major access to healing (which your party might be keen on) then you get pushed into healbot.
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2014-10-07, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
One thing I've considered was a change that would make magic a more costly endeavor in general (and would handicap tier one in particular):
Assign an XP cost to casting all spells. Probably CL * Spell Level (and allow casters to cast at below their caster level, if desired, down to the minimum to cast the spell).
Adding an XP cost to any spell casting above cantrip level would have a couple of obvious effects:
1. Casters would be much more judicious about casting spells. They would mainly use them when truly needed. This would very much bring them more in line with the lower tiers.
2. Casters would advance at a slower pace than non-casters, as they'd need to spend some of their XPs to generate their effects.
There'd be some ripple effects to handle with this sort of change, such as dealing with magic item costs, handling metamagic and reserve feats, dealing with spell-like and supernatural abilities, etc. but I think it would be an interesting experiment to see how this played out.
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2014-10-07, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: Handicapping Tier One
First off, casters can already cast at a lower cl it just doesn't come up much (figured I would point it out in case it ever comes up)
Second exp cost to spells does nothing. Exp is a river and d&d has a rubber banding effect where if you are a lower level you gain more exp. That is why item crafting is good even though it costs exp. This isn't even taking into account how low the exp cost you suggested was compared to the amount they get, even level 9 spells cast at level 20 would only be 180 exp and while it hurts a bit it just suggests that you should make sure to kill everything in turn 1. At lower levels it is a drop in the bucket (1exp compared to a thousand) and most of the time casters are just pinging away with crossbows anyways at that level.
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2014-10-07, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
Hm, that is an interesting idea... maybe the full nine spells from two domains, 1st-6th from two more, and 1st-3rd from another two? It would make two clerics very different, for sure. However, a lot of the game-breakers appear in one domain or another, so it'd only knock them down to tier 2 or so.
Please use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
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2014-10-07, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
Deny them wbl, and magical support of any kind. No items, no magic creatures, no fellow casters. Etc etc. give them a la as well. This means that summons and the like wont work. The rest of the party can follow normal rules.
You could also follow e6 rules but that's pretty drastic.Last edited by HMS Invincible; 2014-10-07 at 12:02 PM.
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2014-10-07, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
I would advise against this, because it actually encourages high optimization casters.
Blasters, already a weak build, need to spam out spells at the highest possible CL. This punishes them horribly.
Buffers, who are the most hidden power, since they manage by making other characters really strong, also get punished for helping others succeed.
Meanwhile, SoD spells are still amazing (most are independent of CL), while Save or Suck spells get a bit worse (generally only scale with duration, and 5 rounds should be plenty)
On top of this you run into the problem of XP is a River, meaning that they will eventually rubberband ahead. This is a boon for the SoD and the SoS casters, since they spend relatively little XP. But for the blasters and the buffers, there's a fair chance that it won't be enough, causing them to fall further and further behind.I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.
Shadeblight by KennyPyro
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2014-10-07, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
I admit to having limited experience of the practicalities of this at high level in 2nd ed (and I don't know what percentage of groups played with such priests rather than more generic clerics), but in terms of flavour it seemed to work quite well and I think would translate quite well to 3.5. If you need major access to the War domain/ Sphere of Influence (that's what they were called) to cast Righteous Might, then you have a theological justification for your deity helping you solve problems by outfighting the Fighter; a pacifist/ healing deity might give spells that encourage a different approach. Result: fewer spells, fewer ways to solve problems, less versatility, lower tier.
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2014-10-07, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
Put a flaw on there. Not a mechanical flaw for a feat, but a really nasty one for no benefit. Such as a bad leg, so you cannot move around as easily without spells. (Might not be good for a cleric, since they cannot heal others.) The character is blind, or heavily near-sighted and cannot use certain spells at a distance. Ask the DM for an interesting RP curse.
Heck, maybe slap an level adjustment on there with some templates or races.
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2014-10-07, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
Themeing is what I can think of when this comes up. My lore oracle lacks meaningful ways to contribute in physical DPS situations (outside force weapons) but tries to push his information advantage. My red dragon sorcerer/dragon disciple pushes melee combat and blasting in favor of more subtle controlling spells. My druids are almost always either blasters or animal shamans, and if I made a witch I would go for debuffing and buffing instead of controlling the field.
I have never played a wizard but I have ideas for necromancers, diviners and transmuters focussing on their respective schools.
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2014-10-07, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
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2014-10-07, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
Many of those, while good ideas, ignore my basic premise. I do NOT want to play a class poorly or change the rules of the class. I want some early hampering of the class so that I must struggle (with all rules and tricks available to me) to make it powerful again.
Changing how a class works or adding Exp costs gets the result, but, again, involves me intentionally screwing up in game (not fun), or rewriting the game (not happening).
I was more hoping for something by RAW instead of an agreement between player and DM about something outside of the rules; but that's not bad. No distances spells, no charging, probably shouldn't use reach weapons. I think he'd resort to grappling, waste feats to make that better, have no reason to change tactics when he finally gets some sort of item to grant better vision.Last edited by Barstro; 2014-10-07 at 01:20 PM.
Avatar of Vlad Taltos and Loiosh by Bradakhan
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2014-10-07, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-10-07, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
I had a lot of fun playing a wizard with no hands; having to memorize almost all of my spells as still spells effectively put me a spell level behind and limited my spells per day.
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2014-10-07, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
From my Minimum Intervention Balance Fix:
SpoilerClerics: Sanction
A Cleric needs Sanction from his Patron to apply his full might. Without Sanction, they are restricted to the spells-per-day chart of the Adept. The Cleric still prepares spells as normal, but puts a special mark beside spells not in their Adept spell slots. These spells cannot be cast until Sanction is granted.
Sanction can be granted by the Patron at any time, even when it is not the Cleric's turn, but only when necessary. The DM should tell the player at the beginning of combat whether Sanction was granted.
In general, Sanction should be granted...
- when fighting favored enemies of the church;
- when fighting heretics or enemy churches;
- when acting in support of a domain you took;
- when acting in support of a church-sanctioned activity.
- when following the direct instruction of their patron deity.
For positive-energy clerics, merely fighting "evil" enemies is insufficient. A Cleric of Corellon Larethian would not receive Sanction against a nest of vampires unless the vampires are a specific danger to elves. The reverse is true for negative energy clerics.
In return, when Sanction is received, the Cleric may cast both domain spells of any given level, as if they had a domain spell slot for each of their domains.
Druids: Sanction
See the Cleric trait of the same name, with the following adjustments.
In general, Sanction should be granted...
- when fighting favored enemies of nature;
- when acting in support of a natural region;
- when acting in support of an activity sanctioned by a council of Druids.
Without Sanction, Druids are restricted to Wildshape forms of two less Hit Dice than they would otherwise be able to Wildshape into. Any class that gains Wildshape "as Druid" retains this restriction, but cannot gain Sanction to overcome it unless they already possess a Sanction mechanic.
In return, when Sanction is received, the Druid automatically receives the benefit of the Natural Spell feat, and may cast a spell in the same round as they use their Wild Shape ability, as if that spell was affected by the Quicken Spell metamagic.
Wizards
All Wizards must choose a school to specialize in.
A Wizard can only prepare spells of their chosen school in most of their spell slots. For non-school spells, they are limited to the spell slots of an Adept.
For example, a 5th level Evoker Wizard with 16 Int gains three 2nd level spells, among others. A 5th level Adept would only gains two. Thus, the third slot could only be filled with Evocation spells.
I played using the Cleric one, in a game where the other players weren't nearly as good at making effective characters, and it worked really well. The party was much more balanced, other characters had time to shine, and I got to feel like a righteous flaming avatar of divine vengeance during the times when I got Sanction. It ended up feeling all the more "cleric-ish" precisely because I couldn't just throw that around all the time.
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2014-10-07, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
Re: Handicapping Tier One
Take Spell Mastery at every available feat slot (netting you 10*Int spells, 11*Int if human), and leave your spellbook at home. Doesn't limit your spell selection too much, but it leaves you with only the wizard bonus feats, which is a big loss. Also you're a prepared arcane caster who's so smart that he doesn't need a spellbook, so bonus cool points.
Alternately, see if you can take Vow of Poverty and have your spellbook be tattooed onto your skin. There are rules for it in Complete Arcane, you can get a total of 80 pages out of that, and then on the same page of Complete Arcane there are rules for scribing spells onto objects if you need room for more spells. Then your WBL-ignoring self-nerf is mechanically enforced, so you don't feel like you're just holding back.Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2014-10-07 at 01:50 PM.
Please use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
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2014-10-07, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
I think this is a fundamental problem: You want to weaken the class without rewriting it (lowering the power level) and without playing badly (which implies playing to its full power). You cannot do this, because if you do not weaken the class by rewriting it, then you will have a T1 class if you play it to its full power. There are only two ways of making T1 not T1.
1. Rewrite the class to be weaker, because the existence of T1 is bad for game balance
2. Exercise self control and don't play the class to its full power. Also known as the "Don't overoptimize" method or, in the eyes of many of the less optimization-savvy, "Don't be an *** by overshadowing everyone"
Seriously, these are your options. Usually option 2 is easier.
And playing suboptimally isn't necessarily bad. Try playing a blaster, or an enchantment specialist, or a master of illusions. None of these are optimal, but they are all still good enough to work.I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.
Shadeblight by KennyPyro
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2014-10-07, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
Extra Anchovies seems like he has the most relevant suggestion. Something to the tune of VoP is probably your best idea if you don't want to throw in homebrew rules. Otherwise, there really is not that much you can do that would gimp your character without having the flavor of being gimped. The only other thing that comes to mind is saying that your character has an aversion to certain types of spell for whatever reason, but that's more RP than actual mechanical weakening like you seem to want.
EDIT: Just for the record, I don't consider Illusion Master to be all that weak of a specialization, with the inclusion of certain things of course. Shadowcraft Mage and things that work on similar principle do exist, after all, and you only need to ask the DM what happens if a spell is mathematically more real than reality once (at least in context) before they know this for fact also. Being able to mimic the main tricks of two entire spell schools and an obscene amount of other things as well with a single spell (and you only need added stuff if the target making the save is a concern) is just plain disgusting when used by someone who knows what they're doing, and can on occasion be even worse when used by someone who doesn't. It's always fun when a nublet realizes all of a sudden that they can replicate anything they want at will.Last edited by aleucard; 2014-10-07 at 02:30 PM.
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2014-10-07, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
My problem with that is that I'd be constantly making myself weaker instead of starting really weak and working hard to get back to "good".
Interesting. I like the idea.
Another interesting idea.
Not quite true. I want a single character weakened early on so that I have to struggle to bring him back up.
Agreed. But I'd rather run in a bicycle race than bike in a running race but promise to not pedal too hard.Avatar of Vlad Taltos and Loiosh by Bradakhan
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2014-10-07, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
Hm. VoP stuff would have a different effect, where they'd start about equal to a non-VoP wizard and wouldn't advance as fast or get as powerful. Spell Mastery, however, would keep you very limited, especially if you don't ever use the physical spellbook (ask your DM if you can forgo one entirely, and just have the spells floating around your brain). You would then be restricted to four spells of each level plus four other spells each of any level. Taking it at 1st, 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th would be even more limiting; only two spells of each level plus two free spells. This doesn't delay your casting either. Here's the wording of the feat:
Benefit: Each time you take this feat, choose a number of spells that you already know equal to your Intelligence modifier. From that point on, you can prepare these spells without referring to a spellbook.Please use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
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2014-10-07, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
I love this fix. Sadly I still have to convince my group that prepared casters are powerful. They claim spontaneous casters to be the most powerful and they still find fighters useful although one player has abandoned his fighter and two others dislike their characters performance immensely.
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2014-10-07, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Handicapping Tier One
Vow of poverty or better yet just permanent poverty would qualify for the working hard to become good
You could pick a crappy race like normal elf or half Orc. You start off weak and slowly rely on magic to become God like.