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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Arcane Fusion infinity

    I know this is an old one, and I have found different answers to this on various forums. I would like to know once and for all whether or not it can actually be done. The infamous infinity loop wit the sanctum spell.

    As I understand it it can only be done by some very advantageous RAW readin. Is it possible for this community, to explain how, if indeed possible of specifically the text that makes it so.

    Also I was under the impression that Arcane Thesis made it possible to actually reduce the level of the spell below the original level, but this seem untrue...

    Also, how if possible would this be done with a wizard?

    I need some help. Thanks.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    The Sanctum Spell metamagic feat is a +0 metamagic feat that increases/reduces the effective spell level by 1 when you are inside/outside of your sanctum.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    When using sanctum spell arcane fusion you cast arcane fusion as a 4th level spell. You cast it out of a 5th level spell slot, but it is a 4th level spell for all effects, including the ability to be cast using arcane fusion.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    And yes, this is a really stupid rule, and you'd be perfectly justified in houseruling it away. But you should always know what's broken about something before you set about fixing it, and acknowledging that the problem exists is the first step.
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    Yeah, sanctum spell should specify that you count the spell as 1 level higher in your sanctum "When it is benifical for you to do so" and count as one level lower outside your sanctum "When doing so would be detrimental".

    Ether that or specify it is simply +1/-1 to save DC and counts as one level higher/lower when interacting with effects that block or absorb spells.

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    Extra Anchovies's Avatar

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    Yeah, sanctum spell should specify that you count the spell as 1 level higher in your sanctum "When it is benifical for you to do so" and count as one level lower outside your sanctum "When doing so would be detrimental".

    Ether that or specify it is simply +1/-1 to save DC and counts as one level higher/lower when interacting with effects that block or absorb spells.
    Actually, Sanctum Spell probably shouldn't exist, period. I know of exactly zero builds that use it for its intended purpose, because how often are adventurers in one place anyways?
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    Thrice Dead Cat's Avatar

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    Actually, Sanctum Spell probably shouldn't exist, period. I know of exactly zero builds that use it for its intended purpose, because how often are adventurers in one place anyways?
    To be fair, its "intended" purposes may very well be to get into prestige classes early or to allow the application of higher level spells to various things (e.g., arcane fusion, metamagic rods, war weaver's abilities).


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    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    Actually, Sanctum Spell probably shouldn't exist, period. I know of exactly zero builds that use it for its intended purpose, because how often are adventurers in one place anyways?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    To be fair, its "intended" purposes may very well be to get into prestige classes early or to allow the application of higher level spells to various things (e.g., arcane fusion, metamagic rods, war weaver's abilities).
    Also it's nice for mastermind type of enemies who are likely to spend much time in their homebase (and can reastablish sanctum when they change it).

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    To be fair, its "intended" purposes may very well be to get into prestige classes early or to allow the application of higher level spells to various things (e.g., arcane fusion, metamagic rods, war weaver's abilities).
    The feat would be names "Cheese spell", not "Sanctum Spell"

    Though it would have some niche application for setting up permanent effects within your sanctum. Permanency has a set cost for effects like wall of fire, web, or such spells. Being able to use heighten and sanctum spell to boost the DC by 2 to any saves involved may be a good use. You can always chaos shuffle the feats back to more useful feats after your sanctum is defended.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    Thanks... I was intending it to be used for an NPC, but I feel the same fules should apply to both NPCs and PCs.

    I would seem that it can only be done because arcane fusion does not actually use slots... is this a correct interpretation?

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells
    Nasty combo really. Broken as all get out, but nasty none the less.

    There are readings that can shut it down using only RAW.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    I am right now putting together a Battle Sorcerer build that abuses it with Magic Missile. I feel like my DM won't get too upset once I tell him that a simple 1st level spell negates that.
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    Yeah, then you get fell drain sonic snap and deal unlimited negative levels a round, no save.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    Yeah, then you get fell drain sonic snap and deal unlimited negative levels a round, no save.
    Yeah... thats basically the plan!

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Caysey
    As I understand it it can only be done by some very advantageous RAW readin.
    You can say that again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane Fusion
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Quote Originally Posted by Metamagic Feats
    If the spellís normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanctum Spell
    [Metamagic]
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane Fusion
    Neither spell chosen can have a casting time longer than 1 standard action.
    There's also this nugget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanctum Spell
    if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.
    Compare with Heighten Spell:
    Quote Originally Posted by Heighten Spell
    Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
    And this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane Fusion
    If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion.
    Arguably Sanctum Spell never changes the spell level, only the effective spell level. Unlike other metamagics it uses the same level spell slot. So a Sanctum Arcane Fusion would still be a 5th level spell, rendering it invalid to use with itself.

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    Extra Anchovies's Avatar

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    @Vogonjeltz: Metamagic Specialist, Rapid Metamagic, and Arcane Spellsurge all say hello. And they also say goodbye to the metamagic casting time adjustment.
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    Necroticplague's Avatar

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogonjeltz View Post

    There's also this nugget:



    Compare with Heighten Spell:


    And this:


    Arguably Sanctum Spell never changes the spell level, only the effective spell level. Unlike other metamagics it uses the same level spell slot. So a Sanctum Arcane Fusion would still be a 5th level spell, rendering it invalid to use with itself.
    Except the things you quoted seem to defeat that statement itself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanctum
    if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion
    If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion.
    That actually makes it seem more clear that this would work, assuming methods of getting around metamagic extending casting time is used.
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Except the things you quoted seem to defeat that statement itself:





    That actually makes it seem more clear that this would work, assuming methods of getting around metamagic extending casting time is used.
    That's the point, a sanctum spells level explicitly isn't adjusted. The spell is still 5th level.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Arcane Fusion infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogonjeltz View Post
    That's the point, a sanctum spells level explicitly isn't adjusted. The spell is still 5th level.
    You... you did read his quotes right? It outright states that the level IS adjusted, not the other way around.

    if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.
    It still uses a the same spell slot, but the level itself is adjusted. Likely intended to make it a punishment for casting Sanctum Spells outside of said Sanctum.
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