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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Metamagic cheese in E6

    I'm running an e6 campaign and the last tier 1 caster is starting to pile up metamagic reducers. Will this be a problem? My main concern is arcane thesis but will the buildup of metamagic feats and reducers outpace say an ubercharger ?
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    I'm tempted to ban. Ur I want an objective analysis.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Well, talk to the player before.
    However, you may just ban metamagic with more than +3 because there is no 4th level slot, I think it would be better.
    I see no problem in E6 about a spellcaster that can cast a stilled silenced spell.
    I see a problem with a spellcaster that cast a persistent or quickened spell.

    But in E6, sudden metamagic feats are generally better as they do not make the spell's level higher.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    I'd almost be tempted to allow this sort of thing, if only because it adds an interesting dynamic to spell casting in an e6 game. However, any meta magics that give +3 spell level or higher should only be options to choose as feats after extensive research, and the only if the person already has Arcane Thesis. Basically, these meta-magics only exist in theory, and to actually put something like quickened into actual practice should be the subject of a long career of experimentation and research. Spell casting institutions, in such a world, start to resemble the highly specialized nature of modern academia. An individual wizard could become famous for a new spell they've created, but more likely, their contribution to the field will be proving that it a silent, maximized scorching ray is possible, after extensive research (arcane thesis+other metamagic reducers) into the scorching ray spell.
    If you are worried about undue spell power, keep in mind that most metamagics that only increase by +1 don't actually add any damage, or remove any drawbacks. Also keep in mind that arcane thesis only effects a single spell at a time, and cannot effect a given spell more than once. Finally, while banning arcane thesis may not be necessary, adding a provision that a metamagic feat can never modify a spell's level below +0, and the banning of Sanctum Spell, would definitely be in order.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Hmmm. I could do the role play as limitations route but it would be a sharp diversion from established gameplay. I did notice a couple things. The 1+ metamagic isn't the problem. It's the plus zero. There may also be other metamagic reducers I d know about.

    Last thing I need to talk to the player about using setting books as sources. Cityscape, fserum, etc etc are all heavily restricted in most campaigns for a reason.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Saying that +0 metamagics don't get reduced to -1 by Arcane Thesis (or any other reducers) and "cap out" at a reduction of +0 should work. Another house rule I've read about (but not tried) goes further and specifies that metamagic reducers cannot be applied to more than one metamagic feat per casting.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Quote Originally Posted by Calimehter View Post
    Saying that +0 metamagics don't get reduced to -1 by Arcane Thesis (or any other reducers) and "cap out" at a reduction of +0 should work. Another house rule I've read about (but not tried) goes further and specifies that metamagic reducers cannot be applied to more than one metamagic feat per casting.
    That's avoiding the question. Of course I can house rule it. What I really want to know is this:
    I cast a generic spell with arcane thesis. It's a
    Spoiler: Metamagic Arcane Thesis +0 3rd level
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    Alternative Source Spell (Dragon #325): For the cost of 1 caster level, and one slot from a class that grants the spell, you can prepare an arcane spell as divine, or a divine spell as arcane.
    Black Lore of Moil (Complete Arcane, page 76): Any Necromancy spell deals +1d6 damage, +1d6/two spell levels. Must expend a 'runebone' that costs 25gp per 1d6 to be generated. See feat for full details.
    Born of Three Thunders (Complete Arcane, page 76): Any [electricity] or [sonic] spell that deals damage has its damage split split 50/50 between electricity and sonic damage. Adds Fort save or deafened, plus Reflex save vs being knocked prone.
    City Spell (Cityscape, page 59-60): Any spell with an energy descriptor and cast within any urban area above the size of small town converts 50% of its damage into "city" damage.
    Cooperative Spell (Complete Arcane, page 77): Requires additional person with this feat, who casts the same spell with you. Adds +2 DC and +1 caster level to beat Spell Resistance, and uses the better of the two spellcasters' DC and caster level. Can be expanded into multiple extra people, adding +1 DC and +1 CL for each additional person.
    Energy Affinity (Miniature's Handbook): Subsumed by Energy Substitution; also slightly harder to qualify for. Same effect.
    Energy Substitution (Complete Arcane, page 79): Any spell with an energy descriptor can be changed to have the energy descriptor (and deal corresponding damage type) chosen by this feat.
    Ghost Touch Spell (Ghostwalk, page 34): Allows spells to affect ghosts and only ghosts.
    Imbued Healing (Complete Champion, page 60): Adds a rider effect specific to one of your domains on the tail-end of your conjuration (healing) spells. Has a table for non-PHB domains on page 53.
    Invisible Spell (Cityscape, page 61): Removes all visual manifestation of a spell.
    Lord of the Uttercold (Complete Arcane, page 81): Any spell with the [cold] descriptor can be changed to deal half cold damage, half negative energy damage.
    Miser With Magic (Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide, page 88): Not really a metamagic feat, despite being marked as such. After casting a spell, make a Spellcraft check at a DC = 10+(2* Spell Level). Succeed, and you get the spell back. Fail by 5 or more, you don't cast it and lose the slot. Regains a number of spell levels equal to your primary casting stat modifier.
    Sanctum Spell (Complete Arcane, pages 82-83): Has an effective spell level of +1 when cast in sanctum, but -1 cast outside of sanctum.
    +1
    (click to show/hide)
    Bend Spell (Dragon #291, Dungeon Compendium Vol. 1): Negates cover bonuses.
    Blistering Spell (Player's Handbook II, page 91): +2 fire damage per spell level, and -2 to attack rolls and checks if the target fails its save. [fire] spells only.
    Clawed Spell (Dragon #315): Spell deals 1d6 Force damage for every 5 caster levels.
    Coercive Spell (Drow of the Underdark, page 47): Spell deals a -2 penalty to Will saves for 3 rounds, non-cumulative.
    Consecrate Spell (Book of Exalted Deeds, page 42/Complete Divine, page 79): Spell gains [good] descriptor, and if it deals damage, half of it is divine damage.
    Corrupt Spell (Book of Vile Darkness, page 47/Complete Divine, pages 79-80): Spell gains [evil] descriptor, and if it deals damage, half of it is divine damage.
    Deafening Spell (Drow of the Underdark, page 49): Any spell that deals damage also deafens its target for 1 round. No save.
    Deceptive Spell (Cityscape, page 60): Makes a spell appear to originate from a different direction.
    Energize Spell (Libris Mortis, page 26): Deals 1.5x damage to undead creatures, but 0.5x damage to non-undead and objects.
    Enlarge Spell: Doubles the Range entry on a spell's description.
    Extend Spell: Double duration of a spell.
    Fell Energy Spell (Dungeon Compendium Vol. 1, Dragon #312): Any spell that gives a numerical bonus gives an extra +2 to undead.
    Fell Weaken (Libris Mortis, page 27): Any spell that deals damage also deals out a non-cumulative -4 Strength penalty.
    Fiery Spell (Sandstorm, pages 49-50): Only usable on spells with the [fire] descriptor, adds +1 damage per die of damage dealt by the spell.
    Flash Frost Spell (Player's Handbook II, page 91): Only usable on spells with the [cold] descriptor, adds +2 damage per level of the spell and creates a quasi-grease effect in the spell's area for 1 round. Note that any spell when using the Snowcasting feat is a [cold] spell.
    Forceful Spell (Dragon #358): Adds a Save-or-Suck to any spell on any one target (even on an area-of-effect spell): Save or be knocked prone and stunned for 1 round.
    Imbued Summoning (Player's Handbook II, page 92): Any creature created by conjuration (summoning) spells can have any spell you know of 3rd level or lower with a range of touch cast on it auto-magically.
    Sculpt Spell (Cityscape, page 63, Complete Arcane, page 83): Changes an area spell's area.
    Silent Spell: Removes Verbal components.
    Still Spell: Removes Somatic components (and arcane spell failure for armor).
    Transdimensional Spell (Complete Arcane, page 84): Allows a spell to affect an incorporeal creature, creatures on the Ethereal Plane or Plane of Shadow, and creatures within an extradimensional space within the spell's area.

    Insert favored spell

    Tell me why that spell I just casted is playable in E6. Note I didn't even bother to pick a SR: No spell.
    Note2. Edit for people that are pedantic.
    Last edited by HMS Invincible; 2014-10-08 at 03:42 PM.

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    KoboldCleric's Avatar

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    If you have a player that wants to invest to 30+ feats to be able to cast a really strong spell a few times each day, more power to him.

    Personally, I'd find something better to do with my feats.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Quote Originally Posted by KoboldCleric View Post
    If you have a player that wants to invest to 30+ feats to be able to cast a really strong spell a few times each day, more power to him.
    Quoted for Truth. Unless he's able to roll in feats, he's not going to be able to cast a [Paragraph] Fireball.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    That's avoiding the question.
    More jumping the gun IMO. Skipping steps for the sake of brevity, only to have to go back and spend lots of time elaborating, is a specialty of mine.

    To go over the stuff I skipped:

    1 - Excessive metamagic reduction creates excessive damage (and/or excessive riders on top of the damage). Your post details it, as does googling the Mailman sorcerer.
    2 - If your group's op level is okay with that sort of damage (i.e. one-shotting things several CR above the party level) then all is well. No bans or changes needed.
    3 - If it is not, then you need to tone things down. Your initial post suggested banning Arcane Thesis and its ilk . . . which works, but due to the difficulty of utilizing metamagic in E6, keeping it around in a non (or less) abusable form is worthwhile, hence my suggested alternatives.

    Sorry for the confusion!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Quote Originally Posted by KoboldCleric View Post
    If you have a player that wants to invest to 30+ feats to be able to cast a really strong spell a few times each day, more power to him.

    Personally, I'd find something better to do with my feats.
    Casting a few strong spells each day has extreme effects, much like an ubercharger on combat and campaign dynamics. I'm concerned about party balance, player fun, and any potential headaches running encounters as a DM. You're not concerned at all with a E6 mailman build? I thought E6 was suppose to avoid rocket tag.

    "More jumping the gun IMO. Skipping steps for the sake of brevity, only to have to go back and spend lots of time elaborating, is a specialty of mine.

    To go over the stuff I skipped:

    1 - Excessive metamagic reduction creates excessive damage (and/or excessive riders on top of the damage). Your post details it, as does googling the Mailman sorcerer.
    2 - If your group's op level is okay with that sort of damage (i.e. one-shotting things several CR above the party level) then all is well. No bans or changes needed.
    3 - If it is not, then you need to tone things down. Your initial post suggested banning Arcane Thesis and its ilk . . . which works, but due to the difficulty of utilizing metamagic in E6, keeping it around in a non (or less) abusable form is worthwhile, hence my suggested alternatives.

    Sorry for the confusion! "
    3. Your houserule essentially changes arcane thesis to "all +0/+1feats can be freely added to your chosen spell if enough feats are spent".
    I'm concerned about 1 and 2, but how do I prove my concerns are well founded? KoboldCleric seems to have no problem with a mailman build with infinite feats. I'm not sure if he's speaking from experience, or not.

    Is using metamagic that difficult in E6? We have the sudden feats, along with a nice selection of +0 and +1 feats. Or were you referring to the persist or guided? Because those get crazy fast.
    What I like about this, if I was playing, not DMing, is the sense of progression a caster gets out of this. I always thought E6 was pretty hard on the casters since they would quickly run out of useful feats. But this solves that problem, maybe a little too well.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    E6 does doesn't work by RAW. As the DM, you have to make alterations to make the gameplay bearable, otherwise some comboes go way out of whack (this also happens in a regular game, but it's kind of ironic how people seem more ok with houerules for regular D&D but not so much for e6) .

    I personally cap unmodified spell levels at 5th level. With this, you can quicken a 1st lv spell with reducers, but not a 2nd or 3rd lv one. Also, ban Fell Drain. It breaks E6 way too much, especially if there's more than one caster in the party, which is your case.

    Quote Originally Posted by KoboldCleric View Post
    If you have a player that wants to invest to 30+ feats to be able to cast a really strong spell a few times each day, more power to him.

    Personally, I'd find something better to do with my feats.
    You have something better to do with your feats than using them cast better spells? Not dissing, just genuinely curious. But also, 30+ feats is way wrong.

    Quicken Sp + DMM Quicken + Easy Metamagic Quicken + Extra Turning x5 is only 8 feats and allows you to cast a Quickened Spell 6 times per day if you have 12 Cha. Then every Extra Turning is another cast per day of a Quickened Spell. The same basic principle can be applied to Twin Spell or a Chain Spell (Chain Dispel Magic with Inquisition Domain anyone?).

    Deities forbid the guy taking a level in Spelldancer for 8 feats give or take (you need some help qualifying) and proceed to Persist every spell in his repertoire. This is nowhere close to 30+ feats, it's all extremely feasible in E6.
    Last edited by heavyfuel; 2014-10-08 at 01:22 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Not having to house rule d&d in e6 is its biggest selling point. My entire campaign is based around mitigating d&d biggest problem. That mundanes suck or that high tier disparity is hard to gm and play well for the whole group.

    I'm actually surprised at the relatively even splitting of opinions here. I want more before issuing a ruling for my group. Next session is October 17.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    Not having to house rule d&d in e6 is its biggest selling point. My entire campaign is based around mitigating d&d biggest problem. That mundanes suck or that high tier disparity is hard to gm and play well for the whole group.
    I've found that E6 does *most* of the work for you, but it helps to nudge it along with a ruling or two of your own. For example, one big decision you will have to make is how to deal with spell levels/slots higher than 3rd level. Without house rules, there are legal (though cheesy at many tables) ways to get higher level spell access via the regular casting rules. Even if you house rule those out - which I highly recommend, especially given your stated objectives - you still have to decide if/how higher level spell effects are accessed. IIRC the original E6 author suggested a mix of Incantations (UA) - which are largely up to the DM to devise within the loose incantation creation rules that UA provides - and epic feats for things like Restoration and Stone to Flesh.

    -------

    That aside, I think you are right to be concerned about metamagic reduction. KoboldCleric correctly points out that metamagic stacking via Arcane Thesis reduces a character's versatility, but if you are at all concerned about the 'glass cannon' effect of larger numbers, then you pretty much have to shut it down via house rules or player agreement. Something as simple as an Empowered Split Scorching Ray with Arcane Thesis (which also boost the CL by 2) gets you 18d6 damage without even getting into bonus feats past 6th level. Without any further reducers, this would be a 4th level slot . . . but, if you are allowing Arcane Thesis to reduce 0+ metamagics to negative levels (Invisible spell is the classic example, but hardly unique) to "pay" for the nicer metamagics, you can cast it out of a 3rd level slot.

    Preventing Arcane Thesis from allowing such negative metamagic modification will prevent that sort of thing. Yes, it will allow stacking of lots of +0/+1 metamagics (Silent, Still, Invisible spell, anyone?) but what its really doing is just keeping the math under control and keeping that "rocket tag" effect out of your game.

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    This sounds like it's more a tone issue than a balance issue, and that's something really only you can address.

    If you want a very gritty game with many drawn out, test of endurance, combats then you might have to ask your players not to pursue certain combat options (of which metamagic reducers are simply one of many) which can trivialize encounters.

    Regarding what other feats I'd consider aside from metamagics and cost reducers, I'd pick up a good mixture of things which allow me to both avoid combats and function efficiently in non-combat scenes. If you as a player build a reputation for indiscriminately throwing around heavily metamagicked spells, expect the DM to begin having intelligent NPCs invest resources preparing for that tactic. Without contingent spells and the higher order of magical defensives available you might never get the chance to cast all your quickened spells if you fail the wrong spot check.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    That's a whole long list of metamagics there with a whole lot of entries that aren't actually applicable to Fireball or are pretty much redundant with each other.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddacku View Post
    That's a whole long list of metamagics there with a whole lot of entries that aren't actually applicable to Fireball or are pretty much redundant with each other.
    So because of the copy paste you are ok with RAW arcane thesis?

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    OrcBarbarianGirl

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Wouldn't a pile of metamagic reducers encounter stacking issues of some sort?
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    Not having to house rule d&d in e6 is its biggest selling point. My entire campaign is based around mitigating d&d biggest problem.
    I understand this perspective, because I tend to like E6 for the same reason, but at the same time...what is E6? A collection of D&D house rules. In light of that, what's one or two more here and there?

    I choose to play with the E6 variant wherein caster levels for crafting are used as hard prerequisites for a given item, making many items uncraftable. I also choose to use the variant where spells that are fourth level or higher simply do not exist, so no amount of cheese, or feat abuse can grant PCs access to fourth level magic.

    In terms of Arcane Thesis and Metamagic, I cap Metamagics at +3 spell levels, before mitigation is taken into effect. So with Arcane Thesis, an Invisible, Stilled, Extended spell 3rd level spell would work, but an Invisible, Stilled, Silent, Extended 2nd level spell would not. I permit access to all Sudden metamagic as well...that all said, as DMs go, I'm particularly hostile toward metamagic stacking in general. It's one of my admitted biases. YMMV.
    Last edited by Gullintanni; 2014-10-08 at 05:20 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Quote Originally Posted by JusticeZero View Post
    Wouldn't a pile of metamagic reducers encounter stacking issues of some sort?
    It depends on what the stacking limit is in comparison to the ecl.

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    I've heard that in E6, damage is easier to optimize than defenses. As you pointed out, with metamagic reducers, it's possible to, say, cast a [Paragraph] damage spell for die or die damage - that is, they die if they pass or fail the save!

    Meanwhile, for the same number of feats, you can get a small amount of HP that's nowhere near the amount needed to avoid death by [Paragraph].

    It seems that throughout D&D 3.5, feats in general bolster offense much more than defense.

    Compared to an Ubercharger, how Uber are we talking? My Hood build at ECL6 is capable of doing one-shot or one-round damage to any threat in the ballpark of E6. And unlike a caster, an Ubercharger can do this consistently without spending spell slots.

    OP: When you mention "balance," please define. What's your baseline for balance?
    Last edited by Endarire; 2014-10-09 at 05:49 PM.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Metamagic cheese in E6

    Quote Originally Posted by Endarire View Post
    I've heard that in E6, damage is easier to optimize than defenses. As you pointed out, with metamagic reducers, it's possible to, say, cast a [Paragraph] damage spell for die or die damage - that is, they die if they pass or fail the save!

    Meanwhile, for the same number of feats, you can get a small amount of HP that's nowhere near the amount needed to avoid death by [Paragraph].

    It seems that throughout D&D 3.5, feats in general bolster offense much more than defense.

    Compared to an Ubercharger, how Uber are we talking? My Hood build at ECL6 is capable of doing one-shot or one-round damage to any threat in the ballpark of E6. And unlike a caster, an Ubercharger can do this consistently without spending spell slots.

    OP: When you mention "balance," please define. What's your baseline for balance?
    First, why would you link to a link that leads to another link? =\ That's what cheap websites do to bump up their page visits. In addition, your primary (most updated?) link is dead.
    Are you familiar with the tier list for 3.5? That's what I referred to by balance. It's much harder to run a campaign with a tier 1 and a tier 4 PCs. That charger cries everytime I set an encounter in the water, the air, underground, urban, social, diplomatic, skill challenge, etc etc. Is giving unrestricted metamagic feats to a caster better than the feats the other PCs get? I'm trying to establish a game set around the tier 3 capabilities. Yes, we know D&D is all about eggshells with hammers. The question is am I giving the tier 1 caster an unnecessary boost compared to any of the other players? Please explain why you think an ubercharger's dps capability is equivalent or better(you implied) than a metamagicked full caster.

    PS Really? A water orc? Is red robin a boring leap attack shock trooper?
    Edit2: After skimming, a variation on the leap attack shock trooper. Though very dependent on mildly exotic source material. Tier 4, maybe 3 if all those dips give you something to do when you aren't leaping/charging. Like say find/rescue/talk to alien ghost sailors in dark stormy weather.
    Last edited by HMS Invincible; 2014-10-09 at 08:43 PM.

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