Puzzle & Dragons 8: puzzle & Interventions

[SiuiS]

Hmm.


Bring a friend Valk instead of friend Lmeta, two heart breakers, echidna and shynee. Or drop echidna? With two heart spikes you can drop the devils with concentrated power, and still have a burst ready for Valk (or alternately, use both bursts on devils and get two bursts up for Valk). If you can keep your damage low and cycle until she uses shield of maiden again, you'll heal up on that turn and then be able to unleash hell.

[Academia]

Anyone else feel like the drop rate of mystic masks in OoH has been reduced recently? I've gotten exactly one mask in the last 3.5 weeks despite all my stamina on weekends and half on weekdays going towards that dungeon.

Ocean of Heavens for mystic masks. Wednesday dungeon is pretty wasteful.

[Erloas]

Wow, a lot of posting. Will probably miss some stuff. Phone sucks for quotes and replying in general...

Is too, but it's mostly because of the lifeleech portion of it. The nuke is usually not all that relevant.

@Starwulf: betcha a Valkyrie rush dungeon happens sooner or later.

I find GrOdin's active well worth it. It isn't a setup for a big spike but still gets used a lot. Probably more than most other actives on my Horus team.

I doubt we'll see a Valkyrie rush because the light one is the only farmable one, the rest are REM only.

I finished awakenings Kushinadhime. Now who next... Cao Cao, Freyja, and maybe Baal all seem like decent choices. Maybe with the changes DQ Hera will be worth it (and I should start skilling her up). Several other choices too that I tend to forget about. Like that Pershephone that has been waiting for an ultimate for months.

@137ben Yomi is the amazing sub she is because of her awakenings, +1 second of time, CTW is just extra gravy. Of course time extensions have got a lot more common recently.


As for taking a Sonia on a rainbow team, it has its uses, especially in the more trick heavy dungeons. If you have the round to spare it is great for clearing jammers and poison. I know I take my Karin on my Horus team for that sometimes (and her good stats and pile of awakenings, the same as Sonia)

[Levictus]

I am not having NEARLY enough Holy Dragon Stones drop. I need those for both Collab Evos and my Shiva, goshdarnit.

I completely understand, I've only had 4 of them drop since the beginning of the collab and, of course, I went 0/4 for skillups. I'm thinking about stoning today during the x2 drop rate, but we'll see how my first bar of stamina goes.

[Feistylady]

Does anybody have any secret knowledge of where a second dark ninja may drop. I cAnt seem to find a dungeon thT drop any of the forms.on the other hand At the level I am at Are these jewels that drop in the gift dungeon needed?

[Sallera]

Dark Ninja only drop from certain survey and weekly dungeons, none of which are up at the moment (Watery Temptress is the easiest place to get them, but it just finished last week, so it won't be back for a while.) And they come out of the PAL machine on occasion, but it's not really worth rolling outside an evo mat event.

The jewels are mainly used for certain high-end ultimate evos; you can check which ones here and the related pages. (Scroll all the way to the bottom and check 'Material for...') If you don't have any of the monsters that use one, the jewel's probably not worth worrying about if you don't have a team that can clear it.

[Jasmine]

Yeah, but she gets time extend. Time extend is so boss.

Not sure if this means I should put her into my team instead of a golem :\

https://www.padherder.com/user/Starw...,0,0;default,0 is my padherder. I need to update it in terms of Awoken SKills though, pretty sure several monsters in there aren't listed as awoken that are.

If you're going to try goemon, gigas is a good choice since 2 mil red exp is pretty expensive. Otherwise...dark valk, or the heras are all decent. I suppose you could always roll for more gods too :P

I keep on wondering why you would put rsonia in a rainbow team. Bastet is green, which puts rsonia active to inefficient use. You lose out on a lot of atk... Now granted green sonia is usually used on kushi teams but thats because the primary colors are dark and green for kushi.

Seems like a waste to have Ronia on a DQXQ team tho (her active would be useless); why would you include her?

Weird teams. Fax, maybe teambuilding is one of the things holding you back :\ Supposedly good combos, good box, okay levels, these don't seem to be the problem. Maybe skillups?

I've really cut back on stoning for continues now; I say "cut back" because it still happens on occasion, but very rarely. (I'm serious about cutting down on my spending in this game!)

Eh? GZL is that good?

GZL is that good IF you have the correct subs for him. While DMeta is a row based constant 16x attack, GZL builds a green two prong based equivalent. Still amazing. But a different type of system. There was some talk at the end of the previous thread (48-49 I think) that talked about the best subs, etc.

Puzzles and interventions!

Both are super strong IAP teams that even have the same leader requirement. Like Otra says, one is rows and one is TPA. Now that DMeta is including gods though, she might be the winner once again. (Hanzo, Haku, Persephone, Loki)

I got the blue jewel. Here's hoping Hera-is gets a badass ult that doesn't ruin her active.

[Otravyat]

Both are super strong IAP teams that even have the same leader requirement. Like Otra says, one is rows and one is TPA. Now that DMeta is including gods though, she might be the winner once again. (Hanzo, Haku, Persephone, Loki)

I had missed the news about gods being added in to the leader skill. That should at least make DMeta slightly more usable for the average person, since the selection of possible subs expands dramatically from the previous pool of gryps and hanzo. I'd be interested to see what the new active skill is (if it actually changes). If she no longer has an orb enhance, being able to plug FALuci in to that team is also amazing.

[SiuiS]

I had missed the news about gods being added in to the leader skill. That should at least make DMeta slightly more usable for the average person, since the selection of possible subs expands dramatically from the previous pool of gryps and hanzo. I'd be interested to see what the new active skill is (if it actually changes). If she no longer has an orb enhance, being able to plug FALuci in to that team is also amazing.

Same active plus clear one bind state turn. Same lead + gods.

[Otravyat]

Same active plus clear one bind state turn. Same lead + gods.

Oh pdx didn't have the active skill details. Cool cool.

[Fax Celestis]

Weird teams. Fax, maybe teambuilding is one of the things holding you back :\ Supposedly good combos, good box, okay levels, these don't seem to be the problem. Maybe skillups?

Almost definitely. :/ I dunno, I keep putting things together and having them not quite work out.

I run a team that Erl mostly built for me (Bastet//Bonia/Isis/Leilan/Echidna//DQXQ; I've since swapped Isis for Lilith) with moderate success. I sometimes run Leilan//Jotunn/Himiko/Echidna/Verche//Leilan, but after easing into Bastet, I find it harder to match specific colors these days. Bonia is finally starting to get somewhere (Bonia//WTS Leviathan/Blast Aurora Dragon/Siegfried/King Bubblie//Bonia), but I have a hard time running it since my levels on it are mid thirties and Siegfried isn't skilled up or in final or ult evo.

I sort of feel like my Leilan team is the only team I built myself that's worth a damn, and the only reason it's any good at all is because I had some pretty nice options for it fall practically into my lap and I happened to figure out that they would work there.

So I dunno. I should theoretically be able to stomp through some of these places, but...well, take today for instance: I tried to get Valk, got all the way to the Devils with my skills prepped, found them sync'd on a two-count, and tried to kill one of them on my first shot. Didn't. Got him to 1/3, so I had to pop Echidna, which meant I didn't have her for Valk, which basically meant I lose—which I did, four rounds in when I ran out of hearts to match. Which is extra frustrating, because Valk is the last piece I need for my healer team, and I. Just. Can't. Get. Her. I could've spent a stone to try to stick out the next six rounds, when her shield would end and Echidna would reup simultaneously, if I had any, but I made my one pull on the REM this morning and got a Fairlio, something I already have and ult'd and awoken and mostly skilled up. Sort of feel like the game just gave me a giant middle finger today, because that happened twice.

So I dunno. My padherder is up to date since Friday--can't do it over the weekend as I hate updating it from my phone--and I guess suggestions are welcome. I'm just pretty disheartened here recently because I feel like I'm up against a brick wall.

[SiuiS]

So I dunno. My padherder is up to date since Friday--can't do it over the weekend as I hate updating it from my phone--and I guess suggestions are welcome. I'm just pretty disheartened here recently because I feel like I'm up against a brick wall.

Levels. Skills. +Eggs.

I hit this wall months ago. Couldn't do anything. Not enough anything. A few +Eggs, some persistence, and learning my errors got me far. A few more subs (including off color/type synergy subs, like takeminakata on my healer team, Angelits, Beelzebub, Asgard, shining lance Odin, Divinegon and his two row enhancements, etc) got me much farther.

It's like tool use. Let's take the Axe. An axe is a lever that delivers force into a wedge to achieve work. There's not much room to improve an axe, because at it's most basic all you can do is fiddle with numbers to get outputs. The equation is well-known, and there is an optimal output which means there are optimal inputs. But what if you still need more performance?

you change the equation. You play with the metagame.

There is an optimal playstyle; 5x leads with gods who all have synergistic skills. But we aren't looking for maximum output, we are looking for beating minimum benchmarks (minimum used loosely because descends are not easy!). We get stuff like adding a mostly useless monster – Thanatos or a kapybara monster – to a descend team to deal with Raphael, or adding mastering for full board switches to deal with jammers and poison, or adding a golem to a healer team for Hp and defense, or adding leeks to a dark team just to heal, or adding an inferior sub with niche awoken skills for that niche, or throwing together three terrible ideas (hp h4x, full board enchantment, spamming max skill stall as prime survival strat) to get consistent success.

[137beth]

U&Y has that type of power with the 25x combined with the two prong attack and now the potential for healer based teams. With three of them I have the potential for (fully maxed) a U&Y active every other turn, plus 8 two prong attacks among those 4 monsters. Sun Quan gives me the potential for an easy consecutive 50x burst. Yomi doesnt get the healer burst but with CTW and the awaken time its worth it to fill out the U&Y colors. U&Y even before the ultimate had the potential equal to kirin, for almost any dungeon in game. With the possibility for type based teams, the inherent synergy of U&Y with himself in terms of double two prong attacks, etc. makes him very strong.

GZL is that good IF you have the correct subs for him. While DMeta is a row based constant 16x attack, GZL builds a green two prong based equivalent. Still amazing. But a different type of system. There was some talk at the end of the previous thread (48-49 I think) that talked about the best subs, etc.

As someone who relatively recently pulled U&Y but has used DQXQ since I started, I think that the healer subtype actually gives U&Y a lot of potential to pair with DQXQ:
If one of each is used as a leader, you can activate only DQXQ's leader skill to leave one monster in a wave alive for stalling. Still allows you to get x20, or x60 with king shynee.

If both leaders are DQXQ, U&Y makes a good sub. There aren't a lot of green healers, and almost all of them are REM-only. The top farmable wood healers are the green healer girl and the L/W valkrie, both of which have inferior stats to U&Y.

Finally, DQXQ can effectively sub on a double U&Y team. She fills the needed light-monster slot, has solid stats, and her active skill is helpful for activating U&Y's leader skill (though you need to combine it with a heart->dark orb changer).

[Academia]

Good day so far. My Project Ares completed today. Max skilled Ares from the Octopus' from way back during the groovecoaster collab lol. Took a while but the damn evo masks were annoying. How many months was that..... @.@ i have a second Ares but dont think I need him. Probably keep the remaining 20 Octopus just in case though.

My Astaroth is skill level 6. Went 3/10 today.... Used the emerald dragons to level another 27 of them and ready them for evo. Ran out of dragon seeds though, so jist stocking up waffle man.... I have only 9 left... this means I still need like 60 of them or something. Probably wont make it. Guess Baal will have to wait

Lakesumi is skill level 3 now. Went 1/7 today.

@Everyone doing Shiva skill ups: I actualy dont find it necessary for the most part, but do what you will. Getting her skills down to maybe 20 turn cd (2 skill levels) is probably good enough for devil teams. It will sync up nicely. Just keep in mind that the dragon stones are also evo material for the bosses in the dungeon. 9 of them are needed to complete all of the evos. They look cool.

[SiuiS]

Man, Fuuvo mats continue to pay for themselves. That's 2/0 my "20% lock resist chance" has saved me versus Chinese gods.

Maybe Fuu is racist?

[Otravyat]

As someone who relatively recently pulled U&Y but has used DQXQ since I started, I think that the healer subtype actually gives U&Y a lot of potential to pair with DQXQ:
If one of each is used as a leader, you can activate only DQXQ's leader skill to leave one monster in a wave alive for stalling. Still allows you to get x20, or x60 with king shynee.

If both leaders are DQXQ, U&Y makes a good sub. There aren't a lot of green healers, and almost all of them are REM-only. The top farmable wood healers are the green healer girl and the L/W valkrie, both of which have inferior stats to U&Y.

Finally, DQXQ can effectively sub on a double U&Y team. She fills the needed light-monster slot, has solid stats, and her active skill is helpful for activating U&Y's leader skill (though you need to combine it with a heart->dark orb changer).

These are all good points. I pair dqxq or Isis as my friend leader whenever I don't NEED that excess damage or the security of 2x U&Y actives. The ability to do lesser damage while still killing trash mobs makes stalling infinitely easier. And both activate automatically if I get U&Y's leader skill. That synergy just gets better with dqxq once the uvo comes out.

Another day, another 200 stamina thrown at OoH without a mask dropping. One mask in 3.5 weeks of constant farming. This luck needs to break eventually....

I will be hitting rank 167 tomorrow though.

[Starwulf]

So, out of boredom I decided to do a single roll on the Godfest, and got a monster that I can't use as a leader, but looks like I can use to replace a sub on my most used team. Da Qiao & Xiao Qiao. Going by their active skill they would actually be MORE useful then angelion on my team(higher stats, more useful awakenings), but only if I can manage to max skill her, though it will still be 3 turns slower then Angelion. But, the twins do come with a Skill awakening which shaves off one extra turn, and the extra orb time movement could be useful, though not necessarily needed.

[SiuiS]

These are all good points. I pair dqxq or Isis as my friend leader whenever I don't NEED that excess damage or the security of 2x U&Y actives. The ability to do lesser damage while still killing trash mobs makes stalling infinitely easier. And both activate automatically if I get U&Y's leader skill. That synergy just gets better with dqxq once the uvo comes out.

Another day, another 200 stamina thrown at OoH without a mask dropping. One mask in 3.5 weeks of constant farming. This luck needs to break eventually....

I will be hitting rank 167 tomorrow though.

The funny stuff about reading plays like this is, I can't do it. I'm currently building combos by destroying most colors and replacing them with light orbs; it's like bringing Horus along and using a Sonja active.

That's what really kicks me, I think. If I did get the divine flowers, I couldn't use them yet because all my subs are geared toward pumping light to the detriment of other combos. I couldn't activate their lead skill!

So, out of boredom I decided to do a single roll on the Godfest, and got a monster that I can't use as a leader, but looks like I can use to replace a sub on my most used team. Da Qiao & Xiao Qiao. Going by their active skill they would actually be MORE useful then angelion on my team(higher stats, more useful awakenings), but only if I can manage to max skill her, though it will still be 3 turns slower then Angelion. But, the twins do come with a Skill awakening which shaves off one extra turn, and the extra orb time movement could be useful, though not necessarily needed.

Man, you suck XD

[Jasmine]

Almost definitely. :/ I dunno, I keep putting things together and having them not quite work out.

I run a team that Erl mostly built for me (Bastet//Bonia/Isis/Leilan/Echidna//DQXQ; I've since swapped Isis for Lilith) with moderate success. I sometimes run Leilan//Jotunn/Himiko/Echidna/Verche//Leilan, but after easing into Bastet, I find it harder to match specific colors these days. Bonia is finally starting to get somewhere (Bonia//WTS Leviathan/Blast Aurora Dragon/Siegfried/King Bubblie//Bonia), but I have a hard time running it since my levels on it are mid thirties and Siegfried isn't skilled up or in final or ult evo.

Valk

I actually find the team you built for yourself to be more synergistic then Erloas's, although the double damage reduction probably isn't needed. In dungeons with status shields (no echidna), you could build a balance team around Robin/Woodsie, Cuchu, Verche, and Phoenix Knight for a total balance team (susano or my melody would be really great here but ehhh REM), or in dungeons where Echidna is needed you could take her with Shynee/Sandolphon, and Valk+Angelion or Bastet+Tornado Dragon for a 4/6 healer team. This would give you much more damage on bosses compared to your old team.

For Bastet, pairing with DQXQ essentially makes your Bonia and Leilan active skills useless, and with Isis and Bastet both having a very situational skills, you essentially have only 2 actives on your whole team. For harder dungeons, you'll probably want to kick out some orb colors to concentrate your firepower. With Echidna being useful on most teams, she's almost assured a spot, and with her, Leilan and Bastet being RGL, Leilans active is a pretty good fit. With 3 of the 4 being healer, Sandolphin or Shynee would be good for the next spot, where you'll then have 2 reds, 2 greens and 1 yellow main. In the last spot, Red=Green>Vanilla valk would do great, or your Tornado holy dragon works fine as well. A uvoed unicorn is an option, as is a leveled LMeta for the sheer stats, but you're still quite far from those being ready.

A longer term option would be to go for God Bastet instead of Healer Bastet. Both Izanagi and Heracles fit well into a G/L team - Verche, Athena, Leilan, and Amitan are also good subs. Three of them you already have, and two more can be farmed from descends. You could take an Echidna or a golem (preferably green, maybe red) instead of one of the gods if the dungeon requires it.

Not sure how strong a non REM Blonia team is, but the onias rely a lot on rows and it's pretty hard to get them without REM.

In the end, teambuilding is usually centered around descends since you can pee through most of the normals (I run the non-boss waves of KoG at 1x most of the time...), so you'll need to tailor your build for the specific dungeon. What works great as a farming team (5 color Bastet) just won't cut it against stronger monsters. I'm just guessing here, but I think you might overestimate your teams' strength since they can breeze through normals, so you end up unprepared for descends and getting stomped.

Re: Valk - if you're desperate for one, Grape+3xhera+high ninja/Friend luci should do it pretty easily. I actually tried blasting her with my bf's level 30 Karin team. Kurone+Vamp took her down to 30%, resurrect, Karin#1 -> 40%, resurrect, Karin#2 -> 10% with a perfect 3 blue, 2 green, 5 dark 10 combo pre skyfall - was really proud of that one, resurrect, (RK UP) 80%, 50%, 30%, 10% and RK ran out and I died :( Pretty impressive for level 30s though.

Levels. Skills. +Eggs.

I hit this wall months ago. Couldn't do anything. Not enough anything. A few +Eggs, some persistence, and learning my errors got me far. A few more subs (including off color/type synergy subs, like takeminakata on my healer team, Angelits, Beelzebub, Asgard, shining lance Odin, Divinegon and his two row enhancements, etc) got me much farther.

Agree on the general idea, although levels probably could have solved a lot of these problems as well (leveling unicorn for enhance, asgard/odin I suppose are HP statsticks, Divinegone for more damage?) Generally you won't want to go off color/type if you can help it, but sometimes there's just that crucial skill...

As someone who relatively recently pulled U&Y but has used DQXQ since I started, I think that the healer subtype actually gives U&Y a lot of potential to pair with DQXQ:
If one of each is used as a leader, you can activate only DQXQ's leader skill to leave one monster in a wave alive for stalling. Still allows you to get x20, or x60 with king shynee.

If both leaders are DQXQ, U&Y makes a good sub. There aren't a lot of green healers, and almost all of them are REM-only. The top farmable wood healers are the green healer girl and the L/W valkrie, both of which have inferior stats to U&Y.

Finally, DQXQ can effectively sub on a double U&Y team. She fills the needed light-monster slot, has solid stats, and her active skill is helpful for activating U&Y's leader skill (though you need to combine it with a heart->dark orb changer).

1. Agree - Split leaders can manage damage better.
2. Disagree - Valk is better because her active boosts the damage of at least 3 members of the team (Herself + 2 leaders). U&Y active will take away Echidna's damage for himself, and Echi actually has good attack nowadays. Though if you ALSO have Sun Quan, this is a much better idea. Particularly good if you have dark valk to cover both dark and red in one sub for LS activation.
3. Disagree - while her stats and awakenings are pretty good, she essentially wastes an active (you're either not using her, or using her + dark valk, making it 1 orb change for the price of 2 actives). Yes, Blue valk and I&I are both REM-only, but they'd be much better choices for covering light. Furthermore, if you aren't lucky enough to grab a SunQuan or two, both the remaining healer enhancers are light - Shynee and Sanddolphin. Healers don't need help covering light - dark is the annoying element for them.

Man, Fuuvo mats continue to pay for themselves. That's 2/0 my "20% lock resist chance" has saved me versus Chinese gods.

Maybe Fuu is racist?

Fuu says FU to Chinese girls.

Spoiler: So I thought both War dragon and Shinra were 120k S ranks.

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Guess I'm Horusing it tomorrow.

5.5 average combos with jammers and no +time awakenings isn't too bad though. Combos much easier when you're not focused on 5-coloring.

[SiuiS]

Agree on the general idea, although levels probably could have solved a lot of these problems as well (leveling unicorn for enhance, asgard/odin I suppose are HP statsticks, Divinegone for more damage?) Generally you won't want to go off color/type if you can help it, but sometimes there's just that crucial skill...

They could. Some of these though are just that, at max level, the team does not have enough HP to take a hit when it matters. Even with all monsters at max level, for example, my standard Lmeta team couldn't have survived pre-normalized sky prison. There are a few descends where I could heal back from the 13-14k hit no problem, except my 12k max health. Divinegon (two rows and a skillboost, light enhance) and Asgard (4k ho at mid level) and similR perform the same function, stat-wise, that having Venus on a team would do. There was a point I wanted Bastet not for Bastet, but for the 3k health she brought to a healer team!

As for mons, my strategies are based on having five on-target picks. This allows one off-target for value, like echidna, Asgard, bubblie (on red Goemon physical) Divinegon (for that old descend of Athena where they brought a lemon dragon for the row enhance) etc. It's not perfect but it's sufficient until I get a 4x or 5x lead up and going.

Fuu says FU to Chinese girls.

Heh.

[Feistylady]

To Nybody that has friended me can you tell me which two leaders show ? I think it should be valk and R sonia

[SiuiS]

To Nybody that has friended me can you tell me which two leaders show ? I think it should be valk and R sonia

Yes, those two are the two.

[Jasmine]

So anyway... sorry to keep spamming the thread, but this was too topical not to mention. I figured I'd do two more rolls for the sake of my silly Haku quest, and what comes out? AA Michael and Sasuke. So, sorry, Jasmine, clearly you were 100% right, and the universe agrees that I should really be running GZL.

Very late but I just saw some nice screenshots of a very mediocre team clearing Starlight Zeus at rank 108.

Spoiler: Dat ogre

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There are a few descends where I could heal back from the 13-14k hit no problem, except my 12k max health.

Good thing 2x Lmeta is going to give 1.56x HP soon >:)



Pretty good day today - maxed out my second Gigas and pulled off a low rarity S-rank with Horus. So once I some more skilllevels onto my Goemon, any Goemon friend with 1232 attack or above will allow me 17 turn clears of KoG.

Spoiler: Massive HP

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Spoiler: Low average but pulled off 3 consecutive 9 combos where it counted

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[137beth]

Well, I did it. I beat challenge mode of every normal dungeon through starlight sanctuary, and every technical dungeon through the forbidden tower. From now on, any stones I get are going to be hard won (or through events).

[obryn]

Man, I'm loving this new Hera dungeon. It's like unlimited gravity skill-ups whenever I have nothing better to do with my stamina.

I've been meaning to buff Hades, now that Orochi is taking up the "blue" spot on my Ra team. I have more need of a Dark sub. I mean, Yomi is fine, but Hades has a skill boost.

I just need to feed probably 60 more Heras to him, at least.

[SiuiS]

How many skill boosts do you need man?


I failed legendary chocolate six times consecutively and put my phone down before I broke it. Today has been ass.

[obryn]

How many skill boosts do you need man?

I'm at 27 rounds (skill 4).

I want 15 rounds (skill 16). :)

[Otravyat]

Ding! Rank 167!

[Fax Celestis]

Decided to try something a little different: realized that most of my Bastet team was healers and took to heart people's points earlier about Leilan/Bonia's actives, so I switched it to Bastet//Echidna/Himiko/Lilith/King Shynee//DQXQ. Considering switching Himiko for Isis: Himiko's active is something I'll actually use, but Isis brings slightly better stats and a bind clear. I guess I could put in my max skilled Siren, but I don't think I'll actually need a heart maker with Dat RCV (2338 before friend leader). Either way, I can still burst for a x30-48 (depending on combo) thanks to Shynee. I just am going to have to get used to being about 3k HP shorter than I was (or take Unicorn or LL Archangel, I guess), or pull Himiko for an HP stick (Jotunn or Midgard, probably, though Bonia would be 300 HP less than Jotunn but 1500 more than Himiko, and has better awakenkngs despite a worse active...).

[SiuiS]

Himiko's active helps with the HP thing. Healer team Schtick; anything that doesn't kill you doesn't matter. Himiko extends the "doesn't kill you" range considerably.