EMPIRE! CWBG IX: We Keep Score With Bragging Rights! Many Prowess, Such Revolution

[BladeofObliviom]

I was thinking about black powder earlier for some reason, probably after the discussions on steam power, and it occurred to me that although there appears to be a general assumption that Telluris will eventually adopt black powder weapons on a larger and more sophisticated scale, that could be open to question. The fire lances and the like we have at the moment are essentially mobile artillery and there is definitely grounds for development on that side of things: black powder artillery was an effective battlefield tool.

Black powder small arms, on the other hand, I'm not so sure about. Early black powder small arms were pretty much rubbish: inaccurate, short-ranged, unreliable, vulnerable to damp and with a dreadful rate of fire. In terms of battlefield performance they were not significantly better than a crossbow and probably inferior to high-quality direct-draw archery. Their armour-piercing capacity was perhaps better than a bow, but even so it wasn't anything to write home about. Their main advantages were logistical: it took much less time to train people to use black powder (there's no point in becoming an expert in a weapon that can't hit a barn door anyway and stands a reasonable chance of exploding in your face) and transporting the ammunition is easier - though more dangerous - than arrows and crossbow bolts. The widespread adoption of black powder was one of the reasons that armies became so monstrously huge during the seventeenth century compared to a hundred years earlier.

But on Telluris, the populations of a given region are so tiny that armies that size aren't physically possible in the first place. (Well, they are, but it takes a reasonable amount of collaboration). Training the entire capable population for war is already the norm: I guess black powder could help shortcut training, but that's likely to make the troops less effective rather than more, assuming current armies maintain a reasonable ranged component at all. And there's the military cap, too. Moreover, armour in Telluris is likely rather better than it was on Earth (given the existence of supermetals) so the armour-piercing effect is likely to be lessened, and we even have crossbows that yell terrifying noises at the enemy, so any psychological edge provided by the noise is also relatively minimal. As such, I wonder if there's any reason for anyone actually to adopt arquebuses, handguns and the like rather than focus on making archery more effective.

I daresay that rifles would come into use probably as toys, hunting weapons and specialist weapons for the rich, privileged and some exceptional snipers, and pistols might be used for portability, but they wouldn't be manufactured on a large scale. Once breech-loading and, more pertinently, automatic reloading, becomes available then rifles would start to pick up an advantage over archery, but that's probably a long way down the line and would herald a completely different era of warfare.

I suspect then, any significant developments in black powder technology would be artillery-side and it might make its way across to infantry "fully-formed", circumventing the musketry phase altogether. I'd be interested to see what others think.

Don't forget that Blackpowder was used in early grenades as well, and black powder grenadiers remained relevant for a good fifty years in real life during the latter half of the 17th century. The artillery development side also remains relevant and powder-charges are still usable for placed demolitions.

Additionally, I don't expect the "screaming crossbows" tech to be in wide use anytime soon, considering it requires a resource unique to the Triumvirate. I'm sure somebody will adapt it sooner or later if they can't get a hold of the more generic resources for Black Powder, but for now the latter is likely to be dominant. You're definitely right that the nature of warfare on Telluris makes musketry less-than-practical, though. If man-portable military firearms were to be adopted by any nation, they'd likely have to be rifled for improved range and accuracy at the very least, and likely distributed to more skilled marksmen than the average conscript.


It may be worth noting that Glazfell doesn't distribute Fire Lances to its troops and technically speaking doesn't use fire lances at all. While some exceptionally brave soldiers carry simple gunpowder-and-Tzaltec-fire claypot bombs to throw at enemies (and Deihandrs have been known to carry several), and War Zeppelins carry dozens of them to make bombing runs with, vaguely firearm-type weapons are only used by Agnier teams, which operate basic bronze muzzle-loading Shrapnel-Cannons that protrude from the sides of an armored hovercraft rather than being easily man-portable. These don't have terribly good range or armor-penetration capabilities in comparison to more advanced cannons or rifles, but they're quite deadly against unarmored or lightly-armored soldiers and produce enough raw force to seriously injure in plate armour at short-to-mid range.

(Most Agniers are Werekin; Their regenerative capabilities and toughness give them a better prognosis in case of a misfire or serious accident.)

In any case, the main advantage that Agnier teams get out of the deal is the Psychological Factor, since they're basically using a variation on Da Vinci's Tank in a setting where Armored Knights are still relevant on the battlefield.

[ImperatorV]

On the gunpowder side of things: I was planning on developing more towards rocketry than small arms anyway.

[TheDarkDM]

On the gunpowder side of things: I was planning on developing more towards rocketry than small arms anyway.

I still have...five techs on my to-do list before I even get to weapon upgrades.

[zabbarot]

Hey Aedil, that Grant in your post at the tzalteclan fest... Is that the same Grant who spent so much time with Shvedrishti?

[QuintonBeck]

I've got your back.

Groovy. Alright, you probably need to know about this thread if you don't already. Most of the opening is intuitive (look through people's actions, write out results as needed) and the rules cover most all the regular mechanical stuff. It is quite time consuming though especially if there's wars or the like going on. I'd set aside at least a couple hours to do it.

[ImperatorV]

Gorram it you two don't talk about round openers on a Saturday night! Seriously, you freaked me out for a second there.

[QuintonBeck]

Gorram it you two don't talk about round openers on a Saturday night! Seriously, you freaked me out for a second there.

Haha, I would have PMed you if actions needed posting.

@Zab: I believe it is that very Jonas Grant.

[zabbarot]

I think that makes him 100 years old. Depending on the year Shvedri died 20-25 years ago at age 75. Jonas was older than her by a couple years.

[ImperatorV]

I think that makes him 100 years old. Depending on the year Shvedri died 20-25 years ago at age 75. Jonas was older than her by a couple years.

These islanders. Worse than the Ethmorls. (although Loki did have to take a fireball to the face to go down at eighty, perhaps he could have topped 100. Certainly not in any condition to do anything besides sit in a chair though).

[QuintonBeck]

I think that makes him 100 years old. Depending on the year Shvedri died 20-25 years ago at age 75. Jonas was older than her by a couple years.

These islanders. Worse than the Ethmorls. (although Loki did have to take a fireball to the face to go down at eighty, perhaps he could have topped 100. Certainly not in any condition to do anything besides sit in a chair though).

Well, ya see, the low gravity of Telluris leads to less wear and tear on the body allowing people to live longer. Yeah, that's it...

[ImperatorV]

Well, ya see, the low gravity of Telluris leads to less wear and tear on the body allowing people to live longer. Yeah, that's it...

Gravity: A Wizard did it of Telluris.

[TheDarkDM]

Speaking of which, Zab, I'm in the process of introducing Mosi's Tzaltec death cult slave fanatic incarnation in my private meeting with King Ghalle. Feel free to play him if you want.

[BladeofObliviom]

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news...01/ast02aug_1/

I'll just leave this here.




Based on the data above (which is actually calibrated for Zero-G rather than low-G but you can expect diminished effects to be consistent), creatures that evolve in or adapt to relatively low gravity would require less blood pressure to function, which means they need to produce less blood and their heart doesn't have to work as hard. It's worth noting that people adapting to low gravity tend to lose both muscle mass and bone density. Adapting to lower gravity is generally easier than adapting to higher gravity. Particularly in the case of bone density loss, returning to higher gravity may not allow it to recover.

There may be some mild lifespan benefits and a reduced risk of death via heart disease due to the heart not having to work as hard, but it'd be fairly insignificant overall. Jonas' age is more likely to be attributed to actual magic than to low gravity.

(Coincidentally, astronauts often gain up to 2 inches in height while in zero-g, due to the fact that gravity no longer holds their vertebrae flush with each other. You also gain some height after lying down for a long time for the same reason. Lower-than-earth Gravity might help to explain why all of the humans in Telluris are "tall". )

[TheDarkDM]

The more you know!

In event news, we're now just waiting for Sam's wedding party and Doom's Criman rebels to show up. Everyone else is still welcome, of course - those two have just RSVP'd.

[DoomHat]

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news...01/ast02aug_1/

I'll just leave this here.

It is also worth noting that evolution is hilariously sloppy and lazy as far as natural forces go. Take the comically pitiful Kakapo for instance. Here's a creature that existed in an environment almost totally without predation on a small island. As a result, they adapted to become very good at not breeding, because the only thing that posed them any significant threat was over population.

They forgot how to fly or why running away from large hungry things is generally good practice, because they didn't have any particular need for either. First contact with organisms adapted to more competitive continent scale survival didn't go well. The remaining 120 or so current survivors of the species are the children of those that had both the vestigial instinct to waddle away from things in terror and yet also, as part of that vestige, didn't include the bit about skittering up a tree and leaping out...

Because they can no longer fly you see. They hit the ground with a thud and got eaten anyway... is what I'm getting at there.

Long story short, easing the environmental demands on an ecology is more often then not only going to give mother nature an excuse to take an early weekend and produce shoddier animals.

[Elemental]

On the other hand, I assume that even though Telluris is smaller than Earth, it's gravity remains comparable due to the inclusion of large quantities of exotic metals such as adamantium and who knows what waiting to be discovered deeper down. I mean... For all we know, the core of Telluris is composed of some sort of naturally occurring crystallised mass of iron-adamantium alloy surrounded by a sea of liquid iron and adamantium, with impurities of course.
And the lower mantle is probably Shintouite that acts as a seal to prevent the heat from Telluris's core from escaping too rapidly. Yet not a complete seal as even Shintouite becomes fragile at such pressures, thus allowing enough heat out for volcanic and tectonic activity to occur, but not so much the core heat is depleted. Alternatively, exotic metals at the core literally produce heat, perhaps through the slow but energetic decay of stable super heavy elements, and that is why Telluris's core hasn't frozen solid yet.

However, the stars are definitely fixed on a crystal sphere, light is transmitted by the ether, water is an element as distinct as gold and sulphur, disease is a poison that is spread by the wind and whatever you do, don't light fires in rooms full of dephlogisticated air!

[TheDarkDM]

Nonsense. Telluris' core is clearly the writhing, insensate body of a vast and alien demon whose offspring are slowly burrowing their way to the surface.

[BladeofObliviom]

It is also worth noting that evolution is hilariously sloppy and lazy as far as natural forces go. Take the comically pitiful Kakapo for instance. Here's a creature that existed in an environment almost totally without predation on a small island. As a result, they adapted to become very good at not breeding, because the only thing that posed them any significant threat was over population.

They forgot how to fly or why running away from large hungry things is generally good practice, because they didn't have any particular need for either. First contact with organisms adapted to more competitive continent scale survival didn't go well. The remaining 120 or so current survivors of the species are the children of those that had both the vestigial instinct to waddle away from things in terror and yet also, as part of that vestige, didn't include the bit about skittering up a tree and leaping out...

Because they can no longer fly you see. They hit the ground with a thud and got eaten anyway... is what I'm getting at there.

Long story short, easing the environmental demands on an ecology is more often then not only going to give mother nature an excuse to take an early weekend and produce shoddier animals.

Heh. I was operating under the assumption that we were transplanting some human offspring from Earth here and letting them grow in the gravity rather than literally evolving here. Less variables to keep track of that way.

On the other hand, I assume that even though Telluris is smaller than Earth, it's gravity remains comparable due to the inclusion of large quantities of exotic metals such as adamantium and who knows what waiting to be discovered deeper down. I mean... For all we know, the core of Telluris is composed of some sort of naturally occurring crystallised mass of iron-adamantium alloy surrounded by a sea of liquid iron and adamantium, with impurities of course.
And the lower mantle is probably Shintouite that acts as a seal to prevent the heat from Telluris's core from escaping too rapidly. Yet not a complete seal as even Shintouite becomes fragile at such pressures, thus allowing enough heat out for volcanic and tectonic activity to occur, but not so much the core heat is depleted. Alternatively, exotic metals at the core literally produce heat, perhaps through the slow but energetic decay of stable super heavy elements, and that is why Telluris's core hasn't frozen solid yet.

However, the stars are definitely fixed on a crystal sphere, light is transmitted by the ether, water is an element as distinct as gold and sulphur, disease is a poison that is spread by the wind and whatever you do, don't light fires in rooms full of dephlogisticated air!

Nonsense. Telluris' core is clearly the writhing, insensate body of a vast and alien demon whose offspring are slowly burrowing their way to the surface.

It's been strongly implied IIRC that Shintouite is infused with the trapped souls of Dead Cloudiz or something like that, so I doubt the core's made of it.

That said, I've been playing with the idea that Telluris' core is just sufficiently dense to grant Earthlike Gravity at the surface of the crust despite the planet's decreased radius. Because of the way gravity works, this means that gravity will increase as you go deeper (until you reach an equilibrium point where the pull of the ground above you is changing at the same rate as the pull of the ground below you) and decrease more rapidly than on earth as you ascend.



In other news, I have apparently written NONE OF MY NOTES ABOUT HAIWASTE DOWN AT ALL in the Lands of Telluris thread, so that's on the agenda right after I respond to Dark's event.

[Aedilred]

I think that makes him 100 years old. Depending on the year Shvedri died 20-25 years ago at age 75. Jonas was older than her by a couple years.

He is, I believe, currently 90-91.

It's been strongly implied IIRC that Shintouite is infused with the trapped souls of Dead Cloudiz or something like that, so I doubt the core's made of it.

If that's the case there's something kind of horrifying about the way the Kasumori use shintouite so liberally for any imaginable purpose. Shintouite buildings, shintouite weapons, shintouite vehicles, shintouite toilets...

[Kitsanth]

These islanders. Worse than the Ethmorls. (although Loki did have to take a fireball to the face to go down at eighty, perhaps he could have topped 100. Certainly not in any condition to do anything besides sit in a chair though).

Speaking of long-lived persons, no member of House Nisakovich detailed on the existing family tree has managed to die from old age yet.

[zabbarot]

Speaking of which, Zab, I'm in the process of introducing Mosi's Tzaltec death cult slave fanatic incarnation in my private meeting with King Ghalle. Feel free to play him if you want.

Awesome, I've been looking forward to it.

@Blade, do your people still tell stories about that awful ritual that took King Hroar's eye? (also his son... that's probably important too)
The silver eyes might be immediately recognizable... or at least a bad omen or something, not sure how your guys feel about Radurja now-a-days. At least Glamora was friends with Shvedri, so maybe that helps relations a tiny bit

EDIT:

He is, I believe, currently 90-91.

He was the same age as Shvedri, so he should be at least 95. It took a bit of fishing to find that out : P

If that's the case there's something kind of horrifying about the way the Kasumori use shintouite so liberally for any imaginable purpose. Shintouite buildings, shintouite weapons, shintouite vehicles, shintouite toilets...

Wait... so we're building fortresses out of necromantic stone?

[SamBurke]

He can't afford to be too patient; he's got to be like 90 at this point.

He never was patient to begin with, and unlike Tumberink, never got an intervention from the dad to change perspectives.

The more you know!

In event news, we're now just waiting for Sam's wedding party and Doom's Criman rebels to show up. Everyone else is still welcome, of course - those two have just RSVP'd.

I'll try to do that tonight. Sorry for being late.

[Aedilred]

He was the same age as Shvedri, so he should be at least 95. It took a bit of fishing to find that out : P

It depends to an extent on when in the round the festival takes place. For some reason I thought it was 457, but I was getting it confused with the Novranian event and it might be 460. Jonas and Tempest were fifteen in 381 at the Grand Ball, which would put his DOB in 366 (or possibly 365), so this round he'd be between 90 and 96; at least, that's what I've been basing all my age assessments of Tempest off so far.

Edit: Something for Morph/Wombat just to note: since there is no region list on the first page any more and the Lands of Telluris thread only has links to posts within that thread, links to a few region posts are no longer easily available. Most of them are NPCs although it includes Calorum. They're all still in the VIII thread OP, but it might be worth Wombat's updating the Lands thread with external links as well when he returns from whatever trivial and unimportant business he's up to at the moment to cater to our every whim as is only right and proper.

[ReaderAt2046]

On something of a tangent to the whole tech-level debate, I've been thinking of (way down the line) developing some kind of runic Magitek based off of my sygaldry, principally so I can have cool power armor, but maybe for some other applications as well. Would there be a huge outrage over this?

[ImperatorV]

On something of a tangent to the whole tech-level debate, I've been thinking of (way down the line) developing some kind of runic Magitek based off of my sygaldry, principally so I can have cool power armor, but maybe for some other applications as well. Would there be a huge outrage over this?

PFFFFF (insane laughter). Should we tell him?

[DoomHat]

Wait... so we're building fortresses out of necromantic stone?

I fail to see the problem. Sure the walls have a tenancy to scream at the merest touch and people will sometimes drown when a narrow corridor or two floods with the blood tears of the damned but, um, the creepy phantom children ominously asking your troops to play with them will be good for moral?

On something of a tangent to the whole tech-level debate, I've been thinking of (way down the line) developing some kind of runic Magitek based off of my sygaldry, principally so I can have cool power armor, but maybe for some other applications as well. Would there be a huge outrage over this?

I'm going to go ahead and spare Dark some frothing at the mouth and recycle an earlier statement of his, of which you either missed or failed to recognize the significance there of.

I'd be willing to step forward and act as a tech gatekeeper. I've certainly dealt with this issue before, both in the Playground games and in certain iterations of Godhood. That experience is where most of my misgivings come from, really, as I've seen the endpoint of unrestrained rule-of-cool tech growth. Eventually someone will just cut out the middle man and invent Spiral Power, someone else invents Fungal Orcs, and then we're off to the races. And that's not me trying to knock the rapid tech players - in my experience there is a bizarre consistency in all games like this to progress towards a Warhammer 40k riff. That said, I think we can work with certain levels of schizo tech. Last Airbender managed it without going too high fantasy, and there are ways to allow "high tech" touchstones without implying the attendant secondary technologies that would turn the world on its head. Like with Ashenia's trains, you could steal an idea from the old Syberia games and have a train that literally runs on a wound spring, and have the steam engine be a massive hulking thing that sits at stations and winds the springs. True, we handwave the industrial steel production for rails in that scenario, but we also avoid easily portable steam engines.

[Aedilred]

I fail to see the problem. Sure the walls have a tenancy to scream at the merest touch and people will sometimes drown when a narrow corridor or two floods with the blood tears of the damned but, um, the creepy phantom children ominously asking your troops to play with them will be good for moral?

I guess it explains a few things. All work and no play makes Ridovo a dull boy?

[WaylanderX]

I fail to see the problem. Sure the walls have a tenancy to scream at the merest touch and people will sometimes drown when a narrow corridor or two floods with the blood tears of the damned but, um, the creepy phantom children ominously asking your troops to play with them will be good for moral?

They are the spirits of the Cloudiz that died in the Cataclysm, seeking purpose in death. Nothing wrong there right?

If that's the case there's something kind of horrifying about the way the Kasumori use shintouite so liberally for any imaginable purpose. Shintouite buildings, shintouite weapons, shintouite vehicles, shintouite toilets...

Building: Yes, Weapons: Only 6 known Shintouite weapons exist, Vehicles: Yeah...nope, Toilets and Sewers:......That is just unProwessfull, of course we do not do that.

In short, we only supply Shintouite to those who the Kasumori deem worthy. And on that note, your Shintouite supply is kind off in danger Sam.

[Aedilred]

Building: Yes, Weapons: Only 6 known Shintouite weapons exist, Vehicles: Yeah...nope, Toilets and Sewers:......That is just unProwessfull, of course we do not do that.

But Kasumor has sewage systems, and it doesn't import any stone...

[ImperatorV]

but kasumor has sewage systems, and it doesn't import any stone...

My prowess in transporting waste is unmatched!