Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?

[...]

I mean, think about it. He may have been perfectly lawful and good in life, but some of the actions he has taken in death really take his alignment in the opposite direction. What does everyone else think?

[brian 333]

I think the angel with the briefcase will have some words for him at the very least, and his climb up the mountain will be a difficult one.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

In his original interview, it seemed that he was able to enter except that he had an unfulfilled Oath. Since then, Eugene has of course done many other things, but I think that if he was able to enter the afterlife earlier, nothing he has done since has been drastic enough to change that.

[Keltest]

The only thing I can think of that he has done that would possibly influence his alignment away from LG is replacing the being of pure law and good, and even that is only one act, performed through necessity in order to contact his son about the fulfillment of an oath.

[NerdyKris]

I agree. The few things he's done since his death don't negate a lifetime of actions. Being lawful doesn't mean being Miko, and being good doesn't mean you have to be a saint.

[DaggerPen]

I feel like deliberately burning the evidence that your son's teammate has committed genocide and further unwittingly jeopardized the security of the Gates after promising to pass the information about it on to said son probably merits at least a stern lecture from a deva.

[Jay R]

The question can't even come up until Xykon is defeated, at which time things will be different from now.

[ti'esar]

I feel like deliberately burning the evidence that your son's teammate has committed genocide and further unwittingly jeopardized the security of the Gates after promising to pass the information about it on to said son probably merits at least a stern lecture from a deva.

Don't forget how approving Eugene seems to be of V's actions in general, either. I'm pretty sure he's not actually including familicide, but still, kind of a damning (no pun intended) indicator of his moral state.

[veti]

Meta answer:

I used to think that once you were on the cloud, actually getting into Celestia was a foregone conclusion, and the interview was a formality designed more to prepare you than assess your worthiness.

But then the Giant took the time to post explicitly to shoot that theory down. That's not something he often does. When you look at the number of contradictory ideas swanning about here on any given day, it's not hard to deduce that most of them must be wrong, but there's only a few that he goes out of his way to correct. They're usually the more popular ones, but as far as I know I was the only person pushing this one.

So why did he bother to correct me?

My new theory: because of what it implies about Eugene. He's not going to get into Celestia.

[Darth Paul]

I think Veti's right, but not because of the Giant's post:

I think Eugene blew it with his character changes since his arrival in the afterlife.

When he arrived (this is just what I have gathered based on what we have seen of Eugene in the various books), he was borderline Lawful in that he probably followed the laws but didn't go out to uphold them; he wasn't a champion of Lawfulness, just an average schmoe who was not a criminal.

He was borderline Good in that he never murdered any defenseless victims, massacred any peasants, or burned down any villages, but at the same time Eugene didn't go out to oppose the burners and murderers, even though as a high-level Illusionist he had a fair amount of capability; all the adventuring that we know he did was in pursuit of Xykon, and when that went sour he retired to raise a family.

So, not Evil, but not exceptionally Good. Not Chaotic, but not exceptionally Lawful. He squeaked into Celestia; except for the Blood Oath.

But since that time, Eugene has shown that the only thing motivating him anymore is his own selfish desire to get off that freaking cloud and into Celestia. He has no concern for what has to be done to accomplish this or who may suffer, or, indeed, who may die, so that Eugene Greenhilt gets his prize.

And when the ends justify the means, one is walking down the Evil path.

I'm pretty certain that Eugene is now Neutral at best. He may even, given his unconcern over the Familicide spell wiping out hundreds of living creatures, and his willingness to risk a recurrence by not warning Roy about it, be actually Evil now. Maybe I'm judging him too harshly, but I find that concealing evidence of, and voicing your approval of, a mass murder, should qualify as Evil in OotS-world or IRL, either way.

So there's my opinion. When (if) Roy completes the Blood Oath, I think Eugene is in for a big surprise as to which way he is headed.

[factotum]

I disagree strongly with Eugene not being Lawful. To reiterate something that's often said, Lawful does not mean "follows the laws". Eugene shows his Lawful side in his personality; as his wife said, when he sets his mind on doing something, he will spend all his resources on doing that thing as well as he can. He might tire of it after a few years (as he did with the hunt for Xykon and his marriage) and move on to something else, but while he's concentrating on that one thing, nothing else matters.

That is not the hallmark of a Chaotic or even Neutral personality, IMHO.

It's my opinion that Eugene's actions on the cloud are also deriving from his extreme Lawfulness--he's getting so frustrated at being powerless to guide his own destiny that he's grabbing at any chance he can to guide it in the direction he wants.

Now, the Good/Evil axis is perhaps harder to judge, but Eugene's wife said he was a Good man and I don't see that anything he's done on the Cloud has actively hurt anyone, so I certainly wouldn't say he's Evil.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Meta answer:

I used to think that once you were on the cloud, actually getting into Celestia was a foregone conclusion, and the interview was a formality designed more to prepare you than assess your worthiness.

But then the Giant took the time to post explicitly to shoot that theory down. That's not something he often does. When you look at the number of contradictory ideas swanning about here on any given day, it's not hard to deduce that most of them must be wrong, but there's only a few that he goes out of his way to correct. They're usually the more popular ones, but as far as I know I was the only person pushing this one.

So why did he bother to correct me?

My new theory: because of what it implies about Eugene. He's not going to get into Celestia.

However, the Giant says

Generally speaking, a character who really is alignment X on the inside will be admitted to plane X with no problems, except in certain special circumstances (Eugene, for example).

which, to me, is saying that Eugene would be getting in without the special circumstance. Also, while the Giant's quote says that not everyone in the clouds is necessarily LG, Eugene has been confirmed as able to enter Celestial in the previous interview.

[Heksefatter]

My guess is that Eugene will undergo another review after the blood oath is fulfilled. My further guess is that Eugene at that time will not be considered LG. I think that he will be considered True Neutral and sent to the appropriate afterlife.

My reasons:

- He assaulted a celestial being in order to replace it as it was being summoned to dispense advice.

- He rigged a trial.

- He is selfish and uncaring.

- Most damning of all, he outright approved of V's deal with the devil/daemon/demon.

This is by no means conclusive. There is plenty of room for reasonable disagreement. It is entirely my guess.

[factotum]

- He is selfish and uncaring.

- Most damning of all, he outright approved of V's deal with the devil/daemon/demon.

I'm sure you'd probably get a bit selfish after being stuck on a cloud with nothing to do for three years--there's no evidence Eugene was like that in life. As for "approving" of the deal, he can approve of V's techniques (e.g. going straight after Xykon with all the power at his disposal) without approving of the methods he used to get the power in the first place.

[Jasdoif]

I'm sure you'd probably get a bit selfish after being stuck on a cloud with nothing to do for three years--there's no evidence Eugene was like that in life.

Huh. The impression I got from other characters' accounts and flashbacks (most of them in Start of Darkness) is that Eugene was that selfish in life....And yet he still was funneled to the LG afterlife when he died, and only the Blood Oath kept him out then. So I don't see why being just as selfish after he died would change the situation.

[Keltest]

Huh. The impression I got from other characters' accounts and flashbacks (most of them in Start of Darkness) is that Eugene was that selfish in life....And yet he still was funneled to the LG afterlife when he died, and only the Blood Oath kept him out then. So I don't see why being just as selfish after he died would change the situation.

My understanding is that while he was always grumpy and snarky (rather like Roy, now that I think about it), it wasn't until after he sat around on the clouds for a while that he got the "Don't forget about me, sitting here, unable to move on" attitude he has now.

[Throknor]

I think the angel with the briefcase will have some words for him at the very least, and his climb up the mountain will be a difficult one.

Don't forget how approving Eugene seems to be of V's actions in general, either. I'm pretty sure he's not actually including familicide, but still, kind of a damning (no pun intended) indicator of his moral state.

Why do you assume he knows about the Familicide? He was probably watching Roy and only followed V after V said "I'm going to kill Xykon!". He definitely didn't read the report. So while he may have seen the two attached spirits and recognized it as a sold-his-soul deal, as far as he's concerned that was just V's own personal choice. He may not know the full depths of V's choices or actions to that point. Even if he did, thinking 'Those dragons got what they deserved' is nowhere near the same moral stance as actually delivering the killing blow, and there's little reason for E to over think full ramifications of the spell if he did witness it.

And to be sure, he hasn't reappeared to Roy since. So unless he does then destroying the evidence might not even be noticed.

Huh. The impression I got from other characters' accounts and flashbacks (most of them in Start of Darkness) is that Eugene was that selfish in life....And yet he still was funneled to the LG afterlife when he died, and only the Blood Oath kept him out then. So I don't see why being just as selfish after he died would change the situation.

Selfishness is not inherently evil, and we definitely haven't seen enough of his life to judge him better than the devas. Even Roy's mother sticks up for him & stayed with him when alive; being a jerk doesn't mean a person isn't Good on the D&D scale.

[Jay R]

Eugene will get in, brought in directly by Roy after Roy earns him the right to go in by fulfilling the blood oath. But he will not get in in his current form.

He will be transformed into a picture, with the exact look on his face from when he heard that Roy could go up the first time.

Maybe a 50-foot marble statue...

[zinycor]

My guess is that Eugene will undergo another review after the blood oath is fulfilled. My further guess is that Eugene at that time will not be considered LG. I think that he will be considered True Neutral and sent to the appropriate afterlife.

My reasons:

- He assaulted a celestial being in order to replace it as it was being summoned to dispense advice.

- He rigged a trial.

- He is selfish and uncaring.

- Most damning of all, he outright approved of V's deal with the devil/daemon/demon.

This is by no means conclusive. There is plenty of room for reasonable disagreement. It is entirely my guess.

mmm... assaulting a celestial being and rigging a trial may be motives enough for not being admitted into celestia, but being selfish and uncaring and approving of V's methods certainly isn't. Being an ******* isn't evil or chaotic, and even if Eugene knows about V's deal with the demons (which i think he doesn't) he didn't take any part on that deal or had any power to stop it from happening.

for Eugene being good iremember something which isn't talked about very much:

Spoiler: SoD Spoiler

Show

He stayed with his family instead of going for revenge against Xykon, for me this is something an evil character would never do, it isn't much, but we don't know much about Eugene either

[ti'esar]

for Eugene being good iremember something which isn't talked about very much:

Spoiler: SoD Spoiler

Show

He stayed with his family instead of going for revenge against Xykon, for me this is something an evil character would never do, it isn't much, but we don't know much about Eugene either

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Eugene didn't qualify as lawful good when he died. It's his actions since his death that have thrown his alignment into question.

[zinycor]

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Eugene didn't qualify as lawful good when he died. It's his actions since his death that have thrown his alignment into question.

I know, and certainly some of those actions may be enough, it's just that people throw so much **** at Eugene that i wanted to remember a moment that was quite significant for me when i was reading SoD.

On topic:

Even if Eugene doesn't go into a LG afterlife, he may end up in a CG afterlife... i think he would be even happier on that one . i don't think his actions would be bad enough to make take him out from Good though.

[Heksefatter]

mmm... assaulting a celestial being and rigging a trial may be motives enough for not being admitted into celestia, but being selfish and uncaring and approving of V's methods certainly isn't. Being an ******* isn't evil or chaotic, and even if Eugene knows about V's deal with the demons (which i think he doesn't) he didn't take any part on that deal or had any power to stop it from happening.

for Eugene being good iremember something which isn't talked about very much:

Spoiler: SoD Spoiler

Show

He stayed with his family instead of going for revenge against Xykon, for me this is something an evil character would never do, it isn't much, but we don't know much about Eugene either

The being selfish and uncaring isn't enough in itself, but it counts if we look at the bigger picture. It pulls him down on the alignment scale.

It is also true that while Eugene didn't have the power to stop V, he did know that V was dealing with the forces of evil, got the details of it from the deva and destroyed said evidence. And he approved.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html

[zinycor]

The being selfish and uncaring isn't enough in itself, but it counts if we look at the bigger picture. It pulls him down on the alignment scale.

It is also true that while Eugene didn't have the power to stop V, he did know that V was dealing with the forces of evil, got the details of it from the deva and destroyed said evidence. And he approved.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html

destroying the evidence is a very unlawful thing to do, but am not sure approving something or not is an evil action itself, not even sure if that is an "action", am not sure you may judge alignment solely on "You judged that evil thing to be right".

And i don't see how being uncaring would be near enough to shift eugene to neutral in any way... it's just not ideal.

[factotum]

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Eugene didn't qualify as lawful good when he died. It's his actions since his death that have thrown his alignment into question.

But that was the point I was making earlier. Being common-or-garden Lawful Good isn't like being a paladin--you don't lose it by performing a single evil or chaotic act. What he's done since he died has to be balanced against what he did while alive, and we simply don't know enough about the latter to make that sort of judgement call.

[ti'esar]

But that was the point I was making earlier. Being common-or-garden Lawful Good isn't like being a paladin--you don't lose it by performing a single evil or chaotic act. What he's done since he died has to be balanced against what he did while alive, and we simply don't know enough about the latter to make that sort of judgement call.

Keep in mind, though, this is a story, which means what's shown to the audience can be somewhat disproportionately important. In that light, I can't but help think it's a little telling that I don't think we've seen any behavior from the post-mortal Eugene that really qualifies as LG.

[Heksefatter]

destroying the evidence is a very unlawful thing to do, but am not sure approving something or not is an evil action itself, not even sure if that is an "action", am not sure you may judge alignment solely on "You judged that evil thing to be right".

And i don't see how being uncaring would be near enough to shift eugene to neutral in any way... it's just not ideal.

Regarding the first, it is just my guess. I know for certain that if I was the GM of the Stickworld, I would mark that down as subtracting from Eugene's lawful goodness. However, I am not the GM, and cannot say if the Giant agrees. It is also possible that the celestial devas do not put all that much stock into intent. Who can say? I am making educated guesses.

As for the selfishness, again if I was the GM, and I looked at a character, who was selfish and uncaring, I would let it matter, when looking at the big picture. I would say that Eugene has been doing some very questionable things and on top of that, he is a selfish man, who cares little for others. He may have been lawful good earlier, but he was never exactly a paragon of the alignment, and now, we see all the other stuff - assaulting devas, destroying the evidence of a deal with the forces of darkness, and even approving of said deal.

[zinycor]

Regarding the first, it is just my guess. I know for certain that if I was the GM of the Stickworld, I would mark that down as subtracting from Eugene's lawful goodness. However, I am not the GM, and cannot say if the Giant agrees. It is also possible that the celestial devas do not put all that much stock into intent. Who can say? I am making educated guesses.

As for the selfishness, again if I was the GM, and I looked at a character, who was selfish and uncaring, I would let it matter, when looking at the big picture. I would say that Eugene has been doing some very questionable things and on top of that, he is a selfish man, who cares little for others. He may have been lawful good earlier, but he was never exactly a paragon of the alignment, and now, we see all the other stuff - assaulting devas, destroying the evidence of a deal with the forces of darkness, and even approving of said deal.

yeah, it certainly depends of the DM and the kind of game you are playing, i happen to think that personality quirks or defects are great for LG characters (and every character), since i can give them more personality beyond "am a saint" and while they can lead to a character commiting actions that will make his alignment change, is not the character quirk that makes him fall from grace, it's his actions in the world.

In this case in particular Eugene is selfish and uncaring, which explain why he assaulted a deva and destroyed evidence sent from the higher-ups. But I would judge him on his actions, not his attitude, if we did, for me it would be the same as; " you don't come into our afterlife because we don't like you", and it should be "you don't deserve to come into our afterlife".


having said that i got another question: is there any indication that the devas are able to judge any posthumous
action?

[Rogar Demonblud]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html

In the third panel, Roy's Archon has something to say on this subject.

[...]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html

In the third panel, Roy's Archon has something to say on this subject.

How would Roy's Archon even know anything that Eugene did? He obviously just assumed that since he was going to make it into heaven, he hasn't stopped being lawful good.

[Keltest]

How would Roy's Archon even know anything that Eugene did? He obviously just assumed that since he was going to make it into heaven, he hasn't stopped being lawful good.

He does have a point though. Unless he has undergone a radical change of personality since sitting on the cloud AND secretly gone on a malicious haunting of people since his death, his ability to alter his alignment in any meaningful way is seriously limited.