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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: What is with the Broken Blade Discipline

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    I agree the maneuver is too much, I said so. I was the first to even say it shouldn't even do bonus damage at all, I think. It's too strong, just as MANY spells are, and I support nerfing the entire lot of them.
    I said your argument was trite and weak, that the martial can "do this all day" is a major factor. And ironic, as you complained about someone else's over-used rhetoric in the same sentence.
    It is a major factor at actual tables, where players don't know what's coming and so manage their resources. CharOp boardwankery may see it differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    What post? I didn't see any post from her on this thread.
    That's because it's not in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Right you are, since Pathfinder never seems to define off hand outside the context of wielding two weapons. It was 3.5 that had the term in their glossary.
    What PF does is specifically define which natural attacks are primary and which are secondary. If you only attack with natural weapons, primaries never take penalties (no matter how many you have), while secondaries always take -5 (-2 with multiattack.)

    So if I have a bite, 2 claws and a sting, in PF they are all primary and so I take no penalties, even if I don't have Multiattack. But if I have a gore and 4 hooves, the hooves are all secondary while the gore is primary.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: What is with the Broken Blade Discipline

    Quote Originally Posted by squiggit View Post
    Your bonus damage is getting two extra attacks on a standard action even full BAB characters have one attack in their routine.

    Even with no d6s that's still an awesome level 5 ability
    Very much this. I actually had a really hard time finding higher level abilities that I would be willing to take in place of this, it's so good.

    Possibly of some relevance, the Paizo team just released a FAQ for the Pummeling Style feat clarifying that it only works for unarmed strikes. That might help provide some insight into where they placed the balancing point on a similar ability.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: What is with the Broken Blade Discipline

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    What PF does is specifically define which natural attacks are primary and which are secondary. If you only attack with natural weapons, primaries never take penalties (no matter how many you have), while secondaries always take -5 (-2 with multiattack.)

    So if I have a bite, 2 claws and a sting, in PF they are all primary and so I take no penalties, even if I don't have Multiattack. But if I have a gore and 4 hooves, the hooves are all secondary while the gore is primary.
    I know that, it was 2 weapon fighting I was confused about.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: What is with the Broken Blade Discipline

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It is a major factor at actual tables, where players don't know what's coming and so manage their resources. CharOp boardwankery may see it differently.
    I'm....just dumbfounded.

    The very resource management and anti-nova'ing that causes one to be able to fight through half a dozen plus fights a day is now "CharOp boardwankery," and assuming a caster is blowing his strongest spells every single round and finding new and creative ways to get off even more spells per turn is "actual table" experience. What the &*^% world did I fall into?!

    Also quite classy, telling me my actual table play experience isn't actual table play experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That's because it's not in this thread.
    Right, I guess it's my bad for not memorizing every random post on this forum, or psychically knowing which ones you deem important. Clearly no reason to provide a link to what you're talking about or even just say I should read X post, rather than snarkily tell me to re-read something I may or may not have even read in the first place.
    Last edited by StreamOfTheSky; 2014-10-10 at 06:23 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: What is with the Broken Blade Discipline

    I don't even see that it's relevant that casters are ridiculous. Should the wizard really be your target balance point when making new content? Most people I think would rather see a good martial character that has fun, interesting, and useful options, not one that needs to out-compete a metamagic reducing no-save and lose wizard.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: What is with the Broken Blade Discipline

    A Wizard shouldn't be your only balance point. Neither should a Fighter. Really, the foes you're facing are the most important balance point, but failing that, I would probably go with a martial class that (IME) can pull its weight quite handily - the Gunslinger.

    The Gunslinger does a pile of damage, both as a single high-damage shot and as a bunch of separate attacks, at range (long range, if spending grit), that hits almost anything (touch attack). They can punch through DR, through concealment, they can shoot without provoking, as well as a number of other tricks. That's something you could balance by.

    Now in comparison, a 6th level Gunslinger with Rapid Shot makes three attacks, six with a double-barreled gun, and they all hit because they're touch attacks. No bonus damage, but you are adding Dex to damage, and that's without any deeds. And with a single gun - TWF would amp it up more, assuming you have a method to reload. Now if you want to be a bit more brutal, a Gunslinger 1 / Ninja 5 with the right feats makes the same six attacks, but adding +6d6+12 sneak attack damage to each one.

    Conclusion: Not feeling like this maneuver is too crazy. Maybe it should be L4 (so 7th level) instead of L3, given nobody is quite matching that at 5th.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2014-10-10 at 07:29 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: What is with the Broken Blade Discipline

    I think martial characters actually do enough damage already, at least 2H ones. Other than giving a boost to TWF, unarmed, and other underpowered styles, and having decently damaging maneuvers to use on the move effectively....martials really don't need more damage. ToB focusing a bit too much on damaging abilities is probably my biggest issue with that great book, I would've rather seen more utility and new options. And from what I've skimmed of PoW...it looks like they went even harder on the increasing damage train, in general. That is...disappointing.

    And I don't think gunslinger is a good balance point for damage. Full attack touch attacks with (ranged) power attack, possibly TWFing, is not what typical damage output should be... Gunslinger's a horrible balance point for anything. It does bs high damage, and has no other appealing qualities.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: What is with the Broken Blade Discipline

    No other appealing qualities? Mysterious Stranger has a reason to pump Charisma! I'm sort of joking, but sort of not. Having a good bonus to social skills is often the key to a lot of spotlight time, more so than nominally more useful abilities that get resolved without interaction.

    Anyway, I've not found their actual damage that much more than other competent martial types like Barbarians or well-equipped Monks (moderately optimized, in all cases). The different is that while those classes can usually be hard-countered, Gunslinger mostly can't. It's the Mailman of non-casters.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2014-10-10 at 07:53 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: What is with the Broken Blade Discipline

    Well, PoW does have more counters and more utility boosts than ToB, if only by the virtue of having far more maneuvers.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: What is with the Broken Blade Discipline

    Re: Damage and Gunslinger.

    Last I checked the Fighter was winning Paizo DPR Olympics. Admittedly that measures endgame.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: What is with the Broken Blade Discipline

    Speaking of third level maneuvers with damage potential, what about frenzy strike?

    I'm putting together a Vanguard commander that could go longsword, heavy spiked shield, armour spikes unarmed strike (Although I'll likely drop out of the uas). It doesn't have the additional d6, but you can get more attacks.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: What is with the Broken Blade Discipline

    Were these guys aware that the maneuver wasn't gonna be used every single turn? Because it is then expended

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: What is with the Broken Blade Discipline

    Quote Originally Posted by Erian View Post
    Were these guys aware that the maneuver wasn't gonna be used every single turn? Because it is then expended
    This is thread necromancy, but the question should be answered.

    People are aware; maneuver recovery is mentioned in the first two posts that mention that this can only be used every other turn. However, even in the original PoW (no Expanded) era of 2014, if you are a Warlord you are still attacking every other turn when you're not using this maneuver (potentially with another ultra powerful maneuver like RZS, or full attacking with the BB third level stance).

    That's not counting feats like Victorious Recovery that gave you free recoveries if you killed someone (which you should do if you're using this maneuver). Broken Blade also has plenty of boosts that spikes this even further, like Bronze Knuckles one level earlier.

    Since then, many methods to achieve free or swift maneuver recoveries are released. Bushi gets one at level 6; Mystics can use it as one of their always on maneuvers, Zealots are zealots, etc. These make it so that you can just spam this forever.
    Last edited by Felyndiira; 2019-04-19 at 09:50 AM.

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