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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Gobbotopias Future

    I was thinking about something. The Citizens of Azure City are living at the Moment on the Elven Island, where V teleported them. So they don't exactly need their City back. And to stop Xykon and Redcloak, the OotS must defeat them at Kraagors Gate and not in Azure City/Gobbotopia. So is it possible, that the Goblins can keep Azure City/Gobbotopia after the Defeat of Xykon and Redcloak and make Peace with Hinjo and the remaining Citizens of Azure City, while Hinjo is building a new City on the Elven Island. Or maybe that the Goblins are switching Places with the Azure Citizens and build their Gobbotopia on the Elven Island, while the Azure Citizens get their City back. I know that Peace between this People would be very difficult, but i hope, that it can happen.

    I just don't want Gobbotopia to fall. Yes, there is Slavery and that is horrible and must stop, if the Goblins really want Peace with the Humans, but i still want a Place in the World for the Goblins. It would bug me, if Gobbotopia would fall in the End and the Goblins would be again just XP-Fodder for Clerics and other Heroes. If just because we don't want a new Redcloak after all is over.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    I suspect that Rich wouldn't allow that to happen, if only because it would somewhat undermine his "racism is bad" message he has going on if the biggest victims of racism get slaughtered and eliminated for fighting back.

    My personal theory is that the Azure City refugees (who have ships) team up with Gobbotopia (who have troops) to fight some currently-unrevealed menace, win, and from there create a truce that allows both sides to have a moderately happy ending. The menace may or may not be caused by Redcloak and Xykon.
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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    I'm pretty sure that the inhabitants of Azure City will want to return to their homes--the real ones, not the refugee huts they're living in on the elven island. However nice the island might be, that overriding urge to go back will be there, and if Hinjo were to broker a deal whereby the goblinoids got to keep Azure City--well, he'd probably be lynched by his own people.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Well this kinda relates to a thought I had recently, so here goes. This draws heavily from the prequels, so apologies to those who don't have them. Briefly, Redcloak, as High Priest of the Dark One, the goblinoid God, is trying to use the snarl to blackmail the Gods into not giving the demihumans the shaft. This is the "Plan."

    In "Origin of the PCs" Roy finds a peaceful way to handle a tribe of orcs. The rest of his party (not OOTS, an earlier group) wanted to just kill them because it was faster and easier. This made me think that when Roy learns why Redcloak is following the Plan, he may well conclude that RC's cause is just. Not his methods, his cause. Since the Azurites slaughtered RC's people, he may regard Azure City as a fair bloodprice.

    Okay, the gods, much less the azureites, might not want to listen. But say Roy initiates negotiations as part of an attempt to avoid letting the world get destroyed. At that point, even the Gods might be forced to listen to a balanced proposal. (Recall that Roy and V are already wondering how much of what they have been told is fact.)

    Anyway, this suggests one way Gobbotopia might be permitted to retain Azure City. But it is by no means a sure thing.

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    While I think it would be nice if the Azurites and goblinoids could end this conflict peacefully and perhaps work together, I agree with factotum that the Azurites want their city and original homes back, so I think there's conflict to come.
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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    At this point I'm pretty sure the city's going to end up swallowed by Soon's Rift.
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Also the question of how Prime Minister Jirix is getting on, given the slightly brutal hint at the end of #833...

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Other than the fact that Soon's rift has to be addressed somehow before the main story ends, I see no reason why either nation should play a role in the future plot. Both have stable place to live and prosper, and Azurites don't have the numbers to retake their old land. I see no peace between them either, both nations will loathe each other for very good reasons. A few generations later, the edge could be dulled.
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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Havran View Post
    Other than the fact that Soon's rift has to be addressed somehow before the main story ends, I see no reason why either nation should play a role in the future plot. Both have stable place to live and prosper, and Azurites don't have the numbers to retake their old land. I see no peace between them either, both nations will loathe each other for very good reasons. A few generations later, the edge could be dulled.
    The Azurites may have a land where they aren't immediately dying, but it was never indicated to be anything other than a temporary defensive location so that they can stop getting attacked by sea creatures. They aren't going to be building a new kingdom there.
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    You should hear about the time when somebody took his hammer.

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The Azurites may have a land where they aren't immediately dying, but it was never indicated to be anything other than a temporary defensive location so that they can stop getting attacked by sea creatures. They aren't going to be building a new kingdom there.
    Why not? Its wooded land, on the sea, so there are resources and food, and the area is not dissimilar to what the Azurites came from. Existing structures mean they don't have to rebuild COMPLETELY from scratch. And the coast gives ample trading opportunity. Why wouldn't it be permanent?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2014-10-10 at 05:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Why not? Its wooded land, on the sea, so there are resources and food, and the area is not dissimilar to what the Azurites came from. Existing structures mean they don't have to rebuild COMPLETELY from scratch. And the coast gives ample trading opportunity. Why wouldn't it be permanent?
    Because they want their land back. Furthermore, the primary reason their allies claimed to be unwilling to assist them (Xykon and Redcloak) are now nonissues. Its not like they couldn't make a city there if they really wanted to, they just don't want to, not if the alternative is fighting back against the goblins and getting their homes back.
    Quote Originally Posted by choken1 View Post
    You should hear about the time when somebody took his hammer.

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    Post Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Because they want their land back. Furthermore, the primary reason their allies claimed to be unwilling to assist them (Xykon and Redcloak) are now nonissues. Its not like they couldn't make a city there if they really wanted to, they just don't want to, not if the alternative is fighting back against the goblins and getting their homes back.
    I'm not that sure about it. Hinjo and the remaining members of ruling class may want it badly, but I guess the majority of the common folk will prefer safe place to live with their families over uncertainty of a crusade against more numerous and motivated enemy.

    I believe that Hinjo, good leader as he is, already sees that reconquista is out of scope, at least for the duration of his reign.

    Edit: Or, more likely, he hopes the Order, as his high-level PC allies, will take the brunt of the work after they finish their quest.
    Last edited by Mike Havran; 2014-10-10 at 06:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Without Epic Teleport, the Azurites returning to their home en masse seems impractical. I imagine there would be a significant portion of the population that does not want to go on a year(s)-long voyage for a chance to maybe have their old homes back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    Mongolian hordes. Lots of lots of mongolian hordes. With a mongolian warrior chief. They will conquer Gobbotopia and rename it as Mongolitopia. Because that makes so much sense.

    Also ponies.
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    For goblins conflict is a requirement for a fulfilled life, as much as drinking ale is required for dwarves and political intrigue for humans. A Gobbotopia that is not challenged to fight for its existence would be far too Lawful Good a place for goblinkind. Azure City must engender anger amongst its neighbors or it will fail as a Utipian Ideal for goblins.

    Add to the fact that the Sapphire Guard cannot thrive without evil to hunt, toss in some hereditary revenge, and you have a twofer! Good for the goblins, and good for the Sapphire Guard! Yay!

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Because they want their land back. Furthermore, the primary reason their allies claimed to be unwilling to assist them (Xykon and Redcloak) are now nonissues. Its not like they couldn't make a city there if they really wanted to, they just don't want to, not if the alternative is fighting back against the goblins and getting their homes back.
    In addition to what Gift Jeraff said, wanting doesn't equate to doing. Their army got decimated, and even if they convert the entire population to military, like the Gobbos did, they'd still be very outnumbered militarily. Why fight a war you can't win?
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    Without Epic Teleport, the Azurites returning to their home en masse seems impractical. I imagine there would be a significant portion of the population that does not want to go on a year(s)-long voyage for a chance to maybe have their old homes back.
    Where are you getting this "Years long" nonsense? It took them ~ a year to find the ruins because they were searching aimlessly. They had no idea where they were going. It will take them significantly less time to sail between two known locations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    In addition to what Gift Jeraff said, wanting doesn't equate to doing. Their army got decimated, and even if they convert the entire population to military, like the Gobbos did, they'd still be very outnumbered militarily. Why fight a war you can't win?
    Like I said, the primary reason they have been unable to get military aid in reclaiming their city (Xykon) is no longer an issue.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2014-10-11 at 09:13 AM.
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    You should hear about the time when somebody took his hammer.

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Where are you getting this "Years long" nonsense? It took them ~ a year to find the ruins because they were searching aimlessly. They had no idea where they were going. It will take them significantly less time to sail between two known locations.
    DStP showed that in that year they were still in Southern waters close to Azure City. They are now much farther away thanks to V's Epic Teleport.
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    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    Mongolian hordes. Lots of lots of mongolian hordes. With a mongolian warrior chief. They will conquer Gobbotopia and rename it as Mongolitopia. Because that makes so much sense.

    Also ponies.
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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    DStP showed that in that year they were still in Southern waters close to Azure City. They are now much farther away thanks to V's Epic Teleport.
    Yeah, and? It took the Machine days to cross the ocean to the Northern continent, and while id imagine a fleet of ships would travel a good bit slower actually sailing rather than flying, estimating the trip at months is still rather pessimistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by choken1 View Post
    You should hear about the time when somebody took his hammer.

    (Let's just say that deaths, mutilation and cross dressing is involved.)

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Where are you getting this "Years long" nonsense? It took them ~ a year to find the ruins because they were searching aimlessly. They had no idea where they were going. It will take them significantly less time to sail between two known locations.
    Heck, with Divination magic they don't even really need to draw a map. Cast, say, Find the Path, set course and hold.

    You could also summon something to guide you.

    Which means the biggest issue is that you don't know the currents and waves.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Pretty sure that Gobbotopia will probably be decimated by the end of the story. Since at least half of the population of Azure City is still enslaved. And there no way it won't lead to the conflict of most likely of a war unless the goblins free every slave they have and I doubt they will ever do something like that.
    Last edited by Emperor Time; 2014-10-11 at 12:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Like I said, the primary reason they have been unable to get military aid in reclaiming their city (Xykon) is no longer an issue.
    Dude, they don't need military aid. They need a military. It got decimated in the Battle of Azure City. They have some soldiers, sure, but not nearly enough. This isn't a question of getting help. They cant fight without an entire other army's help, and if you think that'd on the cards, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.
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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Being a highly militarized, racist, xenophobic theocracy built on slavery and conquest, I have slight doubts that peaceful co-existence between Gobbotopia and the rest of the world is really an option.

    (That's the maximally unfriendly viewpoint, of course. I just feel like some people are overly optimistic about Gobbotopia. In reality, what'll probably happen is that international relations will be poor but nobody will care enough to go to war, and low-level adventurers occasionally get quests regarding slavery raids or something.)
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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    The forces of New Azure City probably wouldn't bother with Gobbotopia if it weren't for the fact that the goblins are keeping former Azure citizens as slaves. With Xykon and Redcloak out of the picture, they'll be trying to do something about that. Whether it's 'diplomatically secure the release of the slaves' or 'get our allies to kill every last gob bastard in there.'

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Quote Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
    The forces of New Azure City probably wouldn't bother with Gobbotopia if it weren't for the fact that the goblins are keeping former Azure citizens as slaves. With Xykon and Redcloak out of the picture, they'll be trying to do something about that. Whether it's 'diplomatically secure the release of the slaves' or 'get our allies to kill every last gob bastard in there.'
    I agree. While the Azurites might be otherwise inclined to just stay in their new home and perhaps, many generations later, make a push to get their homelands back, with the goblinoids keeping their people as slaves, they will probably want to do something to change that situation that may go as far as violence.
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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Without making any definite predictions about what's going to ultimately happen with them, I'm a bit surprised to hear people feeling that the Azurite refugees and Gobbotopia are unlikely to be seen again at all, or that the only reason they would be is Soon's Rift. The cycle of conflict between Azure City and the goblins is pretty important to both the plot and themes of OOTS, and I'd think it'd be fairly obvious that it's going to have some kind of resolution in the comic - even if it's just a deliberate non-resolution - and not just be forgotten about and never mentioned again.
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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    I think that at some point Gobbotopia will be in peril, at which point Redcloak will have another epiphany, and realize that he fatally misinterpreted the Dark One's message of "don't screw this up." Redcloak thought that the 'this' was the Plan, but it actually referred to Gobbotopia.
    After the Snarl, though, I think the biggest threat to Gobbotopia is not actually the Azurites, but Xykon. The Azurites would have a very difficult time taking it back, given that other nations have recognized it. Xykon is the only one who could easily pop in and kill all the goblin leaders just because he's bored and/or found out that Redcloak betrayed him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    Without making any definite predictions about what's going to ultimately happen with them, I'm a bit surprised to hear people feeling that the Azurite refugees and Gobbotopia are unlikely to be seen again at all, or that the only reason they would be is Soon's Rift. The cycle of conflict between Azure City and the goblins is pretty important to both the plot and themes of OOTS, and I'd think it'd be fairly obvious that it's going to have some kind of resolution in the comic - even if it's just a deliberate non-resolution - and not just be forgotten about and never mentioned again.
    Yes, that, basically. I'm personally thinking deliberate non-resolution, but we'll see. I wonder what kind of leader Jirix will turn out to be, given that his main qualifications seem to be "Redcloak knows his name" and "he has PC class levels".

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    The Azurites would have a very difficult time taking it back, given that other nations have recognized it.
    Minor nitpick: Redcloak does say that 17 nations have recognised Gobbotopia, but we don't really know what 16 of them are like. If they're mostly tiny specks of land on the Western Continent or kobold mines or something, that doesn't neccessarily really mean a lot. Cliffport is a major power, but as opportunistic as they are, I can't exactly see them rushing to Gobbotopia's defense.
    Last edited by Khay; 2014-10-12 at 03:53 AM.
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    I think the fact that the Snarl is finally awake is bad news for Gobbotopia. Obviously, we haven't yet seen any real fallout from its attack on Laurin and Miron, or if that is something it's doing everywhere, but Azure City/Gobbotopia is the only area with a destroyed Gate that is populated, and if the Snarl attacks, it is going to be eating a lot of souls. My suspicion for awhile has been that that was why the Resistance was killed off. So we wouldn't have to worry about their souls being cast into oblivion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jidasfire View Post
    I think the fact that the Snarl is finally awake is bad news for Gobbotopia. Obviously, we haven't yet seen any real fallout from its attack on Laurin and Miron, or if that is something it's doing everywhere, but Azure City/Gobbotopia is the only area with a destroyed Gate that is populated, and if the Snarl attacks, it is going to be eating a lot of souls. My suspicion for awhile has been that that was why the Resistance was killed off. So we wouldn't have to worry about their souls being cast into oblivion.
    So the Azurites' souls are supposed to be worth more to the audience than the goblinoids', just because they're human? That doesn't really gel with Rich's message.

    Besides, there were filthy elven souls that got spared if that's the case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    Mongolian hordes. Lots of lots of mongolian hordes. With a mongolian warrior chief. They will conquer Gobbotopia and rename it as Mongolitopia. Because that makes so much sense.

    Also ponies.
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    Default Re: Gobbotopias Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    So the Azurites' souls are supposed to be worth more to the audience than the goblinoids', just because they're human? That doesn't really gel with Rich's message.

    Besides, there were filthy elven souls that got spared if that's the case.
    Also, even if that was the point of killing of the Resistance, the slaves are still alive and working in Gobbotopia, so their souls would be obliterated.
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