Gobbotopias Future

[Jaxzan Proditor]

There would be no point Sandsedge even having a port if there were not both other ports for it to trade with, and ships to sail between the two. It's way too far from the Eastern Continent for there to be frequent traffic between the two.

As for the distance between the island and Sandsedge, I confess I recall it being mentioned as being a day's journey somewhere, but I can't find it now. Strip #672 does show the ship leaving the island, and by the end (without any obvious indication a lot of time has passed) it's already approaching a coastline; however, the map in #698 suggests that could be the coastline of the Empire of Tears, and the ship would have to sail a long way westward to get to Sandsedge from there. (This is assuming the Elven island is the largish one at the bottom right of the map, which seems a reasonable assumption).

In #678, Blackwing says they were at Vaarsuvius's home two days ago. They left the island the day after that, ergo the journey took one day.

[Emanick]

what I believe we will see sooner or later, is a goblin like Right-Eye, but with more vision

I see what you did there.

[MReav]

At the very least, Goblin Dan is going to do all right.

I think what's going to happen is that the goblins are going to be forced out eventually, but by that point, hydra meat will revolutionize things so the need for raids will radically lessen.

[factotum]

In #678, Blackwing says they were at Vaarsuvius's home two days ago. They left the island the day after that, ergo the journey took one day.

Ah, thank you! I knew I recalled it from somewhere but couldn't figure out where--nice to know I wasn't just making the whole thing up. Although that means that either the Western Continent is extremely small (unlikely) or the island I mentioned in my previous post can't possibly be the Elven one, because you have to cross around half the continent's width to get from that one to Sandsedge.

[Morty]

I see what you did there.

Hah. The pun wasn't actually intended.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ah, thank you! I knew I recalled it from somewhere but couldn't figure out where--nice to know I wasn't just making the whole thing up. Although that means that either the Western Continent is extremely small (unlikely) or the island I mentioned in my previous post can't possibly be the Elven one, because you have to cross around half the continent's width to get from that one to Sandsedge.

Yeah, I guess that does being up an interesting question. Perhaps the island isn't on the map?

[Mike Havran]

Ah, thank you! I knew I recalled it from somewhere but couldn't figure out where--nice to know I wasn't just making the whole thing up. Although that means that either the Western Continent is extremely small (unlikely) or the island I mentioned in my previous post can't possibly be the Elven one, because you have to cross around half the continent's width to get from that one to Sandsedge.

I think the island is fairly large, but not large enough to be put on the big-scale map. If it was the large island on the map, the Order would probably decide to go to the Free City of Doom instead of Sandsedge.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think the island is fairly large, but not large enough to be put on the big-scale map. If it was the large island on the map, the Order would probably decide to go to the Free City of Doom instead of Sandsedge.

Speaking of Doom, Shoulder Pad Guy called it a "port city" when convincing the Weeping King to attack it. So there are ports on the Western Continent besides Sandsedge.

[Keltest]

Speaking of Doom, Shoulder Pad Guy called it a "port city" when convincing the Weeping King to attack it. So there are ports on the Western Continent besides Sandsedge.

Rogar does have a point however. There is a definite lack of proper ship-building materials, so the non-elven western civilizations are pretty much never going to have any sort of significant naval presence unless they buy tons of wood from other powers, which in turn requires that they have something valuable to trade and survive long enough to build the ships properly (which, history tells me, is apparently hard.)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Rogar does have a point however. There is a definite lack of proper ship-building materials, so the non-elven western civilizations are pretty much never going to have any sort of significant naval presence unless they buy tons of wood from other powers, which in turn requires that they have something valuable to trade and survive long enough to build the ships properly (which, history tells me, is apparently hard.)

I doubt any of them are going to have massive navies, but if they have ports they should at least have enough skill with boats to be able to sail to this island.

[Keltest]

I doubt any of them are going to have massive navies, but if they have ports they should at least have enough skill with boats to be able to sail to this island.

Probably, but exploration isn't really going to be their first goal to use their ships for, now is it? They live in a desert, theyre going to see "ooo, seafood!" first, "Ooo, other people's stuff to buy!" second, and "Exploration" possibly not at all, given the incredibly tenuous nature of empires in the Western Continent.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Probably, but exploration isn't really going to be their first goal to use their ships for, now is it? They live in a desert, theyre going to see "ooo, seafood!" first, "Ooo, other people's stuff to buy!" second, and "Exploration" possibly not at all, given the incredibly tenuous nature of empires in the Western Continent.

Fair enough. I don't think any kingdom would really last long enough to hold onto the island anyways, so what you're saying makes sense.

[factotum]

Where has this idea that there is no wood in the southern half of the Western Continent come from? There are parts down there that are clearly not desert--and if wood really was such a precious resource, that would be even *more* reason why one of the warring powers would have taken over a forested island a day's sail off the coast! Also, what is the furniture made of if not wood? The tables in the inn in #710, for example, or Malack's chairs in #737?

[Keltest]

Where has this idea that there is no wood in the southern half of the Western Continent come from? There are parts down there that are clearly not desert--and if wood really was such a precious resource, that would be even *more* reason why one of the warring powers would have taken over a forested island a day's sail off the coast! Also, what is the furniture made of if not wood? The tables in the inn in #710, for example, or Malack's chairs in #737?

They can easily have imported furniture pre-made, and while you are correct that the entire continent isn't desert, ships would not be something that they would be especially quick to use their lumber on. If they aren't importing furniture that means theyre making it themselves, I assume the supports for the many tents we see are made of wood, the fletchers are going to consume a lot of wood making arrows and bolts for the various armies that are cropping up all the time, and these are just the things that I can think of off the top of my head. Without any experience I cant even touch the topic of appropriate types of wood to make ships out of, or whether the more permanent structures would consume any wood in their construction.

[zimmerwald1915]

Where has this idea that there is no wood in the southern half of the Western Continent come from? There are parts down there that are clearly not desert--and if wood really was such a precious resource, that would be even *more* reason why one of the warring powers would have taken over a forested island a day's sail off the coast! Also, what is the furniture made of if not wood? The tables in the inn in #710, for example, or Malack's chairs in #737?

In terms of shipbuilding, there's wood, and then there's wood. Masts in particular require trunks that are springy enough to bend in the wind rather than crack, but still tall and strong enough to carry a full load of sail. Ancient Mediterranean peoples used cedar; early modern and modern northern Europeans used pine. I don't know enough to comment on Chinese or south Asian shipbuilding, so I won't, but you get the gist. Even if you're eschewing sail power and opting for something more like an oar-powered galley (which the Westerners with their slave economy would probably adopt more readily anyway) a wooden ship still needs a great deal of pitch, flax, and hemp in addition to whatever you're building the hull out of (oak is popular). Plus, oar-powered galleys aren't well-suited to open ocean travel, and would be much more useful for littoral and coastal shipping - for example, between Sandsedge and Doom, or between Doom and Bleedingham - than to shipping between, say, Sandsedge and Cliffport.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ships require hardwoods. Large hardwoods at that. Oak is the best for this (one of the reasons for England's naval dominance is that they had large forests of old oak, which they largely logged off for the mercantile interests), but walnut and others can serve. For masts you need something a bit springier, so pine is often used (North Carolina's prime export for decades was ~100 foot pine trees).

None of this will grow in a desert. Too much wind, not enough water. What you do get in a desert is Manzanita, Acacia, Joshua Trees, Juniper, Scrub Cedar, Mesquite and others. Small, stunted, tough. Good for little stuff like furniture, not so good for larger items. Most buildings will be of earthen construction.

Also, oceanic trade isn't going to be a big business in the Western Continent's political quagmire. It takes a lot of money to build a ship, more to lade it and crew it. If you have that, you probably left to spend it in more congenial circumstances. Not to mention that the government that was in office when you started building the ship would've been replaced twice over by the time the ship was finished.

Note that all of this is irrelevant if you don't have a lot of experienced carpenters and shipwrights to do the work.

Trade also has to deal with the protection rackets of all of the different ruling bodies. Basically, the only things that are going to move are luxury goods, which have enough of a profit margin to be worth the effort.

Yes, I have a minor in history.

[zimmerwald1915]

Most buildings will be of earthen construction.

Scratch "will be," read the comic. They are. Sandsedge is a tent city, Bleedingham looks like stone for the palace and mud-brick for everyone else.

Yes, I have a minor in history.

Major in history, minor in ninjutsu

[factotum]

For masts you need something a bit springier, so pine is often used

The palm tree in #682 sure looked nice and springy... (This is a joke--no idea if you could actually use a palm for this purpose).

If you're only doing local trading along the coast you don't necessarily need masts--galleys would be a perfect option (especially given the general attitude to slavery on the Western Continent). In any case, it's already been pointed out that the Free City of Doom has been described, in-comic, as a "port city", and where there are ports there are ships, even if the darned things are made from giant insect carapaces and use the jet-like screams of tortured air elementals as propulsion!

[Keltest]

The palm tree in #682 sure looked nice and springy... (This is a joke--no idea if you could actually use a palm for this purpose).

If you're only doing local trading along the coast you don't necessarily need masts--galleys would be a perfect option (especially given the general attitude to slavery on the Western Continent). In any case, it's already been pointed out that the Free City of Doom has been described, in-comic, as a "port city", and where there are ports there are ships, even if the darned things are made from giant insect carapaces and use the jet-like screams of tortured air elementals as propulsion!

While that's not implausible, I think youre neglecting to account for the idea that maybe the coastal cities just want other people to be able to dock there? There may be ships, but they aren't necessarily the FCoD's ships. After all, its if youre going to trade with people, why wouldn't you make it convenient for them?

[brian 333]

Ships can be built anywhere. The real question is, who crews them? Pirates, smugglers, and mercenaries will flock to a place like the Western continent, both because of the chaotic political climate, and because of the absence of competition in their respective trades.

Smugglers don't have to worry about naval blockades.
Pirates don't have to worry about being hunted down by the local navies.
Mercenaries have many opportunities to take hire to hunt down smugglers and pirates.
Smugglers think they can outsmart pirates and mercenaries.
Pirates think they can outfight smugglers and out-run mercenaries.
Mercenaries think they can beat the snot out of anybody and take their stuff.
Smugglers don't have to compete with honest merchants who keep prices low.
Pirates can pull into any port for repairs and replenishment.
Mercenaries don't have to compete with local navies for work.

So, Free Enterprise for all in the West; you can be as successful as your brains and your luck allow you to be without kow-towing to some bureaucrat whose cousin's mother's uncle got him a job he's not qualified to do.

[Keltest]

Ships can be built anywhere.

Just for clarity, you mean this in the "It doesn't matter where they were built, so long as theyre in the west now." sense, not the "Even a desert can produce ship-worthy materials." sense, correct?

[Porthos]

I think we might be, ahem, missing the forest for the trees here.

First off, the island is a "few dozen kilometers" off of the coast of the Western Continent. So it's easily within sail of any major power.

HOWEVER, until very recently it belonged to the elves. I get the sense that none of the powers in the Waring Kingdoms wanted to tango with the elves. So capturing the island would have meant going to war with them. Or at least risk pissing them off. That would explain why no one went and took it in the past.

Depending on just how long ago the elves abandoned it, it simply could be that no one powerful enough has had the opportunity to go in and scope it out.

[zimmerwald1915]

HOWEVER, until very recently it belonged to the elves. I get the sense that none of the powers in the Waring Kingdoms wanted to tango with the elves. So capturing the island would have meant going to war with them. Or at least risk pissing them off.

Their loss, really. The elves are a paper tiger.

[ti'esar]

...How the hells did this thread become a discussion about the availability of lumber on the Western Continent, anyway?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

...How the hells did this thread become a discussion about the availability of lumber on the Western Continent, anyway?

We were talking about the island the Azurites were on. We may have gotten a little sidetracked.

[orrion]

The palm tree in #682 sure looked nice and springy... (This is a joke--no idea if you could actually use a palm for this purpose).

If you're interested.. I'm pretty sure you can't. Mythbusters did an episode where they were trying to fling a corpse over a wall with a tree (the myth was about spreading a sickness from the corpse into a fortified castle). They needed an absurd amount of force to bend back the tree far enough to get a catapult effect, and even then the trees wouldn't bend enough to get near touching the ground nor snap back anywhere near that far. I don't recall that they tested a palm tree, but still. Also, saplings bend further.

I'd cite specifics (tree type, etc), but Netflix went ahead and removed Mythbusters recently because they're idiots.

And now.. back to the other off-topic topic?

[factotum]

While that's not implausible, I think youre neglecting to account for the idea that maybe the coastal cities just want other people to be able to dock there? There may be ships, but they aren't necessarily the FCoD's ships.

See, I don't think trade or journeys between the two major landmasses is that common. Consider: the Azure City refugees visited pretty much all of their allies to try and get help in retaking their home, and yet they never visited their oldest and truest allies, the elves. Why? Because of the ocean in between! I seriously doubt there are regular trade missions between, say, Cliffport and the Free City of Doom.

[Cavenskull]

What if Gobbotopia gets largely ignored by the Azurites due to the presence of a continent full of corrupt peoples that need to be enlightened, especially in the event that nameless rulers (like Elan's father, for instance) end up leaving a power vacuum behind?

[Morty]

...How the hells did this thread become a discussion about the availability of lumber on the Western Continent, anyway?

Sounds like a usual nitpick-induced topic drift. I'm fairly sure everyone here has put more thought to that topic than the Giant ever has.

[Forikroder]

What if Gobbotopia gets largely ignored by the Azurites due to the presence of a continent full of corrupt peoples that need to be enlightened, especially in the event that nameless rulers (like Elan's father, for instance) end up leaving a power vacuum behind?

ya im sure theyd totally put taking back there homes on hold in order to try to spread peace in a desert

See, I don't think trade or journeys between the two major landmasses is that common. Consider: the Azure City refugees visited pretty much all of their allies to try and get help in retaking their home, and yet they never visited their oldest and truest allies, the elves. Why? Because of the ocean in between! I seriously doubt there are regular trade missions between, say, Cliffport and the Free City of Doom.

or because the elves were already debating wether to help and hadnt come to a decision yet?