Help getting my murderhobo party to roleplay.

[YossarianLives]

I have been playing with my current group for about three years. In that time we've advanced from to total noobs to being relatively experienced players. (We play D&D 3.5) However recently - and especially after I joined GitP earlier this year - I've come to realize that my party is made up almost entirely of massive murderhobos. In fact the only player who I'm not sure is a murderhobo I've never seen play so I don't really know. I'm really the only member of the party who makes characters with any semblance of personality, and who don't devolve into CE murderers within a couple of sessions. Now the current DM has informed me that his campaign will be ending much sooner than I thought it would and I'm next up to the DM plate. Now I want to try to teach my party to roleplay, and maybe even to solve their problems with something other than violence. I've started planning and I think that making the combat difficult and deadly would be a good step. Especially since their main strategy is to charge up to the monster and whack it. So I think doing this would help make them use other methods
such as stealth or diplomacy.

Any advice on how to get my party to roleplay?

[Jaycemonde]

Show NPCs of a much higher level and with much better equipment dying horribly in front of them because of something that shouldn't normally happen to really powerful people. Then remind them that it's a common occurrence in your setting unless the players are careful.

[Curbstomp]

Here's what I did:

I started giving out role-play XP and made murder-hoboing not particularly rewarding in-game. They still got to kill things as part of missions or dungeon delves or what have you, but killing random people resulted in unpleasant consequences. One of the PC's actually got arrested for her crimes, failed to escape (though it was possible), and was publicly executed. The other PC's were in the crowd watching it and debating a rescue. In the end they decided that since the other character had killed a boy-king (and let his guards see her face while doing so) that she probably deserved to die. That player's next character was far better at social interaction in the game world and did not stray into murder-hobo territory.

I also talked to them beforehand about the changes and it went pretty well.

[TandemChelipeds]

Show NPCs of a much higher level and with much better equipment dying horribly in front of them because of something that shouldn't normally happen to really powerful people. Then remind them that it's a common occurrence in your setting unless the players are careful.

Don't do this, it's incredibly unsubtle. Give the party healer a curse and watch them scramble to get it lifted. By the end of it, the party will have bonded. Maybe they'll still rely on violence all the time, but at least the mere fact that they've gone to extreme lengths to save the healer's life will at least have taught them to care about each other's characters. This is a good starting point. Once they're invested in someone else's character, it isn't as much of a stretch for them to become invested in an NPC.

Also, ask for a plot hook from each of them before the game begins. Hold onto these for a while, but make sure everyone knows that everyone else's characters have plot waiting in the wings. Eventually, bring someone's backstory back to bite them. Give them a problem they need help getting out of. Maybe they're wanted by the law, or maybe they have an evil relative with an eye on an inheritance, who needs them out of the way. Maybe they've fled from a kingdom in the midst of a political crisis that they have personal stake in. Whatever it is, as long as it's the pretext for the session's adventure, the other players will probably go along with it. And once again, since they've made a significant difference in the character's life(fulfilling a story that that character's player helped write, thus drawing the player in), the character will likely be grateful for their help. Commence more bonding and more investment in the world.

I don't know for sure if it'll work, but it's what I'd do. Basically, the gist of it is that you should give them situations where they have to struggle together against a threat that threatens to hit them where it hurts; the obvious example is the healer, who everyone overlooks and relies on in equal measure. In the rest of the examples, the threat is a more abstract one, either to the story the player wanted to tell, or to the prospect of having any fun that session. This is only how you get your foothold, of course. The rest of it will have to arise through recurring NPCs and the like.

[Mr Beer]

You could pick a different game for a change. D&D has an inbuilt tolerance for murderhobo-ing, switching to something where the game explicitly aims for different goals might assist in the process.

[TheThan]

You could pick a different game for a change. D&D has an inbuilt tolerance for murderhobo-ing, switching to something where the game explicitly aims for different goals might assist in the process.

I was going to suggest just this. Find a game that's not quite so tolerant of Murderhobo-ing.

[Vitruviansquid]

Are you sure your party even wants to do less murderhobo'ing?

[Chd]

I find the easiest way is having them be captured/locked up on death row for whatever reason/'crime'/political enemy that they tell me, have way higher NPC's as Guards, and then let the party try and plan their escape.

This also sets the party up as a group 'on the run', trying to clear their names/eliminate witnesses and evidence against them.

If the message still isn't sinking in/they murder-hobo, have a law-enforcement patrol encounter / bounty hunter encounter a few levels higher then their current level.

[Anxe]

Are you sure your party even wants to do less murderhobo'ing?

Pretty much this. My group still is mostly murderhoboing many years later. It's just a play style. If you up the challenge level then they will only build stronger characters. Its unlikely that they will approach your encounters differently.

The imprisonment thing sounded like the best option to me.

[BWR]

D&D doesn't need to be tolerant of murderhoboing. That's a problem with players, not game or setting. i've come across some bad murderhoboing in WoD and Shadowrun and L5R.

If you are going to DM a game:
Step 1: Tell the players that murderhobing will be punished before character creation
Now they've all been used to MHing and expect this from a game. Throwing a different game than what they think they are getting will likely just cause unhappiness all around. Explain that they've been allowed to run wild, but now if they do stupid random murdering and stealing, the rest of the world will react to this (thought you might want to put it a bit nicer than that). If you mean to make a game where stealth, diplomacy and planning are important, tell them that before they make their characters so they can try to adjust.
Otherwise you will just be seen as suddenly punishing them for stuff that has been accepted before.

Step 2: Creating characters, not stats
During character creation ask the players to think about what sort of character they want. Personally, I never have a proper personality for my characters at creation - this develops during play. Ask them to answer certain questions about their character before play starts. L5R has the 20 questions to help get their characters rolling. Those are obviously a bit setting specific, but making something similar can help. Questions like what sort of hobbies the PCs have, what food they like, pets, family, friends, fun stories from childhood, quirks, stuff they dislike, strong personality traits, etc.
Ask them to play on this. Take notes and bring these things up in play, if possible. Don't punish people if they don't, don't overly reward people who do, just try to add some depth.

Step 3: Take the initiative
If they aren't used to roleplaying and acting out interactions with NPCs, start off. Be in character wtih NPC and respond to things the players say OOC in character. Show them the way rather than tell them which way to go. Don't expect immediate results but encourage it.

Step 4. Give it time.
While MHing should be limited pretty early on if they were paying attention to you, there still might be some hiccups. Rather than just punishing them straight out, give them a chance to reconsider. The most powerful tool in the GM's arsenal are eight words: "Are you sure you want to do that?" Ask them how they think other people would react to their proposed actions IRL. If they can't come up with a reason to not do whatever they were planning, tell them the likely consequences of an action. This is very important when trying to teach people new games and new settings.
Getting into roleplaying their characters rather than just playing a mass of stats will likely take a bit longer. Give it time. Just keep at roleplaying your side and try to engage them in it. Have NPCs start conversations about entirely irrelevant things, show in passing the flavor of the setting: sports matches, the stuff available in marketplaces, the type of food they get in inns and taverns (not just 'food' but 'beef and potato stew. Well, potato strew at any rate'), the weather, the landscape, the clothes people wear....
Don't spend a lot of time on each thing, just a few words here and there.

Note: you may be wrong
Games are supposed to be fun and while you want more roleplaying and thinking in your game, you fellow players may very well decide it's not for them. If you try to encourage RP and they just don't find it any fun at all even after they've given it a good try, don't force them to continue. Whatever you may think about MHing, if they think that's fun and your type of gaming isn't, is it really worth it to try to force them to do it your way?
Sometimes you have to go along with stuff you aren't too fond of to maximize enjoyment of the group. I've been playing D&D for 23 years straight with one group. i'm, pretty tired of D&D and have tried to get them to try something else, but no one else wants to, so I was left with either playing a system and generic settings I'm bored to tears with or not seeing my friends. I chose my friends and try to not be too much of a wet blanket when we play.

[Macros]

Are you sure your party even wants to do less murderhobo'ing?

This.

I was pretty much in the same situation as OP. I still have a gaming group who is pretty much composed of textbook murderhobos. At first, I was a bit annoyed by this, before realizing that, hey, for more RP-heavy stuff, I had other people, that everyone here seemed to have fun with that approach, and that, yes, sometimes, just barging in a dungeon and killing everything that moves IS relaxing.

Now, it's worth trying to introduce them to the wonderful world of RP, but if they don't like it... well, I guess that's that. As long as you have fun, does the method really matter?

[ElenionAncalima]

Pretty much what BWR said.

Murderhobos are typically born out of consequence free gaming. They kill everything, because nothing is ever too strong for them. They harass townsfolk, because the law has never held them accountable. They never investigate, because all the information they need has always handed to them...ect.

That is why it is important to inform your players that this will be a more consequence-heavy game than they are used to. Make sure they are on board...then take things slowly and patiently. Otherwise, they may feel like you are just punishing them for everything they do and it probably won't be much fun.

[Metahuman1]

You could pick a different game for a change. D&D has an inbuilt tolerance for murderhobo-ing, switching to something where the game explicitly aims for different goals might assist in the process.

I'll third this, and recommend Mutants and Masterminds 3rd edition. You can even run a fantasy game like what there use too with it. =)


Also, look up the 10 minute back ground and tell everyone that before they can touch dice or players handbook they have to fill the excersize out too your satisfaction.

[Jay R]

Talk to them. See if they are willing to play differently, and if so, ask them what would encourage them to do so.

Don't try to force them to play the way they don't want to; convince them to enjoy a new style of play.

[And if they say they won't do it, then you won't be spending time beating your head against the wall trying to force them to.]

[Aliquid]

A few of these comments have been made, but:
- ask them if they are willing to try this
- give XP and in game rewards (e.g. magic items) to reward role playing
- Set the tone early! During character creation, ask them to put together a *party* backstory. Why do they know each other? Why do they trust each other? (they must) Ask them to agree to share similar alignments and motivations for adventuring. What are these?

[nedz]

Are you sure your party even wants to do less murderhobo'ing?

this

I was going to suggest just this. Find a game that's not quite so tolerant of Murderhobo-ing.

also this

As players mature and develop they get bored of Hack 'n' Slash and want something with more depth. You can help educate them by running things like Call of Cthulu.

[BootStrapTommy]

No need to switch systems. That's excessive. But I will post what I post in every thread about players being unruly, DMs being railroady, and problems with party cohesion: For ever cause, there is an effect.

This basic observable reality should be no less present in a fantasy setting. If players kill everything they see, then they should except to make enemies. And they should except that there are always BIGGER fish in the sea, some which might decide a coating of the blood of the innocent makes you a tasty glazed snack. So when they up and murder that orphanage full of children, they shouldn't be surprised when the party of 15th level paladin headhunters seeks to end them.

Just let your players know that actions have consequences, and that just as going good will bring the ire of the world's BBGs, murderhoboing is the quick route of making good guys wroth with you. If they play with fire, they've no reason to be angry with you when they get burnt. You're not there to masturbate their psychotic fantasies, you're there to give them a world to explore.

One of the PC's actually got arrested for her crimes, failed to escape (though it was possible), and was publicly executed. The other PC's were in the crowd watching it and debating a rescue. In the end they decided that since the other character had killed a boy-king (and let his guards see her face while doing so) that she probably deserved to die. That player's next character was far better at social interaction in the game world and did not stray into murder-hobo territory.

Example: this.

[Sartharina]

As players mature and develop they get bored of Hack 'n' Slash and want something with more depth. You can help educate them by running things like Call of Cthulu.

I strongly disagree with this. Some people 'go back' (Or never leave, or were originally non-murderhobos) to Murderhobo playstyles because they've got their own life to lead for all the 'characterization' bull****, and when it's time to game, it's time to kick ass and take names in fantasy land, outgrowing the 'Roleplaying" part of "Roleplaying Game".

[Laserlight]

Here's what I did:
I started giving out role-play XP

People usually respond to incentives. If they want to advance their characters, and if they get more XP and loot for "completing a mission without collateral damage" and "purloining the diplomatic message without leaving a trail of bodies" than they would for "charging in mindlessly and kiling everything", they will probably do what you want.

That said, there are some people who just want to watch the world burn:

Spoiler: Some people just want to watch the world burn

Show

I was running a one-shot convention game. The con regulars knew from previous years that NPC Honest Abdul could sell you an amazing variety of things, if you were willing to pay his price. One of the players for this year was Tony, who was a Call of Cthulhu fan.

Me: Alright, let's get this game underway. Roll initiative. Tony, looks like you go first. What's your first action?
Tony: Oh, Honest Abduuuuuuuul !
HA: Ah, my best friend, my children are starving but for you, such a deal I have! A fine camel, slightly used....
Tony: I want to buy a copy of the Necronomicon.
HA: Oh, such a discerning customer as yourself knows that this is a very difficult thing you ask. Very rare. Very expensive.
Tony: I'll give you everything I have, plus a guitar string.
(Abdul agrees to this and they conclude the transaction)
Me: Okay, Tony, you now have a copy of the Necronomicon. What's your second action?
Tony: I read it.
Me: (boggle)
Tony: Out loud.
Me: (Additional Boggling)
Me: Really?
Tony: Yep!
Me: You're sure?
Tony: Yep!
Me: Tony....I know that you know better than to do this. Are you actually going to read the Necronomicon out loud?
Tony: Oh yes.
(I reach into the hidden area under the table, and--to everyone's shock--bring up a figure for a 50ft tall Cthulhu and set it at the edge of the map).
Me: Tony, over the last two months I spent many, many hours of my prep time for this game wondering how I could possibly bamboozle the players into summoning Cthulhu. And you do it voluntarily within the first three minutes of play.
Tony: There's something about your game which just makes me want to destroy the world.

[Averis Vol]

I have been playing with my current group for about three years. In that time we've advanced from to total noobs to being relatively experienced players. (We play D&D 3.5) However recently - and especially after I joined GitP earlier this year - I've come to realize that my party is made up almost entirely of massive murderhobos. In fact the only player who I'm not sure is a murderhobo I've never seen play so I don't really know. I'm really the only member of the party who makes characters with any semblance of personality, and who don't devolve into CE murderers within a couple of sessions. Now the current DM has informed me that his campaign will be ending much sooner than I thought it would and I'm next up to the DM plate. Now I want to try to teach my party to roleplay, and maybe even to solve their problems with something other than violence. I've started planning and I think that making the combat difficult and deadly would be a good step. Especially since their main strategy is to charge up to the monster and whack it. So I think doing this would help make them use other methods
such as stealth or diplomacy.

Any advice on how to get my party to roleplay?

Make some murderhobo NPC's. If you want to hold their interest enough to get them to roleplay, you could try making erratic, likeable NPC's that are kind of like the party. Or you know, just embrace the murderhobo-ness and go with the flow.

[Chd]

When they Murder-Hobo in a big Town/City, have a Team of 3 Fighter20/Rogue20/Sorceror20 "Bounty-Hunters" joined by 30 Guardsmen Ambush the Party with the intent of Capturing the Party Alive.

Yes, you read that right: Level 60 Bounty-Hunters sent in to capture the party. The Bounty-Hunters will be non-lethal damage, having envenomed blades/arrows dripping with a anesthetic toxin. The Guardsmen are ready to kill though.

Send the Guardsmen in, let them try to take the party down. After they are tired out/used their spells, have the Bounty-Hunters reveal themselves from the shadows to take them down.

When the Party complains, you can show them the stat sheet, explain that all the parties' victim families pooled their money to offer as a bounty, 40,000pp.

Fast-Foward a few months, say that the Guards confiscated their items and gear as 'proceeds of crime', then have them thrown out of the Jail, released and naked as the day they were born, with level-appropriate vigilantes waiting for them.

[Anxe]

When they Murder-Hobo in a big Town/City, have a Team of 3 Fighter20/Rogue20/Sorceror20 "Bounty-Hunters" joined by 30 Guardsmen Ambush the Party with the intent of Capturing the Party Alive.

Yes, you read that right: Level 60 Bounty-Hunters sent in to capture the party. The Bounty-Hunters will be non-lethal damage, having envenomed blades/arrows dripping with a anesthetic toxin. The Guardsmen are ready to kill though.

Send the Guardsmen in, let them try to take the party down. After they are tired out/used their spells, have the Bounty-Hunters reveal themselves from the shadows to take them down.

When the Party complains, you can show them the stat sheet, explain that all the parties' victim families pooled their money to offer as a bounty, 40,000pp.

Fast-Foward a few months, say that the Guards confiscated their items and gear as 'proceeds of crime', then have them thrown out of the Jail, released and naked as the day they were born, with level-appropriate vigilantes waiting for them.

Ooo! And after that you can tell the players that the snacks you've been serving them are laced with cyanide! You'll only give them the antidote if they start roleplaying within the next five minutes!

[Sartharina]

When they Murder-Hobo in a big Town/City, have a Team of 3 Fighter20/Rogue20/Sorceror20 "Bounty-Hunters" joined by 30 Guardsmen Ambush the Party with the intent of Capturing the Party Alive.

Yes, you read that right: Level 60 Bounty-Hunters sent in to capture the party. The Bounty-Hunters will be non-lethal damage, having envenomed blades/arrows dripping with a anesthetic toxin. The Guardsmen are ready to kill though.

Send the Guardsmen in, let them try to take the party down. After they are tired out/used their spells, have the Bounty-Hunters reveal themselves from the shadows to take them down.

When the Party complains, you can show them the stat sheet, explain that all the parties' victim families pooled their money to offer as a bounty, 40,000pp.

Fast-Foward a few months, say that the Guards confiscated their items and gear as 'proceeds of crime', then have them thrown out of the Jail, released and naked as the day they were born, with level-appropriate vigilantes waiting for them.

... why do you even have player characters when you have heroes greater than gods in every single city to solve all the problems?

This is worse than "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies".

[The Oni]

Say it with me, folks:

Can't resolve OOC problems with IC solutions
Can't resolve OOC problems with IC solutions
Can't resolve OOC problems with IC solutions

Yes, there should be consequences for the players' actions. Those consequences need to be realistic and they need to go hand in hand with an actual discussion of storytelling and world immersion. They definitely don't need to involve the direct intervention of a Level 60 Anything because players will not react well to that, EVER, and why in the world is a team of level 60 bounty hunters not ruling the free world

[Averis Vol]

Say it with me, folks:

Can't resolve OOC problems with IC solutions
Can't resolve OOC problems with IC solutions
Can't resolve OOC problems with IC solutions

Yes, there should be consequences for the players' actions. Those consequences need to be realistic and they need to go hand in hand with an actual discussion of storytelling and world immersion. They definitely don't need to involve the direct intervention of a Level 60 Anything because players will not react well to that, EVER, and why in the world is a team of level 60 bounty hunters not ruling the free world

This forum needs a +1 function.

[Vrock_Summoner]

When they Murder-Hobo in a big Town/City, have a Team of 3 Fighter20/Rogue20/Sorceror20 "Bounty-Hunters" joined by 30 Guardsmen Ambush the Party with the intent of Capturing the Party Alive.

Yes, you read that right: Level 60 Bounty-Hunters sent in to capture the party. The Bounty-Hunters will be non-lethal damage, having envenomed blades/arrows dripping with a anesthetic toxin. The Guardsmen are ready to kill though.

Send the Guardsmen in, let them try to take the party down. After they are tired out/used their spells, have the Bounty-Hunters reveal themselves from the shadows to take them down.

When the Party complains, you can show them the stat sheet, explain that all the parties' victim families pooled their money to offer as a bounty, 40,000pp.

Fast-Foward a few months, say that the Guards confiscated their items and gear as 'proceeds of crime', then have them thrown out of the Jail, released and naked as the day they were born, with level-appropriate vigilantes waiting for them.

40k platinum? Not only would you need to kill members from the royal family of every kingdom in the world for a split bounty that high to be worth the revenge, but Level 60 characters have such high WBL that they could outfit themselves with all the equipment they could buy that would actually be useful, and the stuff they consider pocket change because it isn't enough to buy more useful items could buy every kingdom on the material plane, twice, before it would finally be chump enough change for a 40k platinum bounty to add meaningful bulk to their horde.

Think realer and smaller, mate.

[Anxe]

I think ya'll missed the joke.

[YossarianLives]

Maybe I could send bounty hunters after them that are below epic level.

[The Oni]

Sarcasm doesn't always translate well through the 'Net.

The whole bounty-hunter/vigilante concept isn't inherently bad, although again, if they're terrorizing poor townsfolk they may not be able to realistically hire anyone who's a threat to you.

I actually wrote a group in a 3rd party setting that's a cabal of witches and spiritualists that take on missions of revenge, for whatever the target can pay and sometimes for free if the story is moving enough - designed explicitly to give players a hard time for being douchebags to commoners. They generally antagonize the target with curses, hauntings, thefts and general paranoia, though killing isn't entirely out of the question if they feel the target is awful enough, and their one rule is never to harm a child in the course of the revenge.

But again, yes, the most important bit is that the players need to be involved in the discussion. If you just start punishing them without encouraging them to roleplay in positive ways, they're not gonna go for it. In fact, they may just get more murderhobo-y in defiance.

[Chd]

Sarcasm doesn't always translate well through the 'Net.

The whole bounty-hunter/vigilante concept isn't inherently bad, although again, if they're terrorizing poor townsfolk they may not be able to realistically hire anyone who's a threat to you.

I actually wrote a group in a 3rd party setting that's a cabal of witches and spiritualists that take on missions of revenge, for whatever the target can pay and sometimes for free if the story is moving enough - designed explicitly to give players a hard time for being douchebags to commoners. They generally antagonize the target with curses, hauntings, thefts and general paranoia, though killing isn't entirely out of the question if they feel the target is awful enough, and their one rule is never to harm a child in the course of the revenge.

But again, yes, the most important bit is that the players need to be involved in the discussion. If you just start punishing them without encouraging them to roleplay in positive ways, they're not gonna go for it. In fact, they may just get more murderhobo-y in defiance.

Indeed it is, but in my case it wasn't sarcasm.

40k platinum? Not only would you need to kill members from the royal family of every kingdom in the world for a split bounty that high to be worth the revenge, but Level 60 characters have such high WBL that they could outfit themselves with all the equipment they could buy that would actually be useful, and the stuff they consider pocket change because it isn't enough to buy more useful items could buy every kingdom on the material plane, twice, before it would finally be chump enough change for a 40k platinum bounty to add meaningful bulk to their horde.

Think realer and smaller, mate.

But that's exactly what my party did, along with destroy a manaflux Power Plant, which rended a hole in the fabric of reality, ending the lives of 32 million people within the disaster zone, and the 350,000pp of infrastructure was torn asunder by this hole.

They were visited by Paladins of the Bright Order, given one opportunity to repent. They sent the heads of those paladins by courier to the Holy City impaled on their own swords.

Not a traditional D&D campaign, but the idea still holds: No matter how powerful the party, there are always bigger fish in the sea.