A race? It's a race! I hope I win!

[ti'esar]

I don't see why you guys keep fingering Redcloak as the "bad guy". His motivation has been extremely empathetic this whole time, he's just trying to get equal rights for his people. I really don't see that being motivation for a "bad guy", it's not even Evil.

His goals are fairly sympathetic - though I think there's room to debate whether he truly wants goblin equality or goblin supremacy - but that doesn't mean his actions in pursuit of them are. At the very least, the fact that he's still willing to play chicken with creation after having established a stable goblin city-state should give people pause.

As far as the actual thread topic goes, I've said it before: I think Xykon and Redcloak are collectively a dual "big bad". Neither one would be nearly as dangerous without the other. Whoever comes out on top when the probably inevitable falling-out occurs doesn't really matter, particularly since it's probably going to be at the very end of the comic.

[littlebum2002]

If you use Evil in pursuit of a Good goal, I believe that is a Neutral act. And I really fail to see how "stopping the Genocide of an entire race" would be anything BUT a Good act, at least in the OOTS universe.

[Keltest]

If you use Evil in pursuit of a Good goal, I believe that is a Neutral act. And I really fail to see how "stopping the Genocide of an entire race" would be anything BUT a Good act, at least in the OOTS universe.

some of it depends on context, but motivation generally wont move an act very far towards good on the alignment scale. While genocide is bad, that doesn't mitigate the horror of counter genocide, which at the end of the day has been deemed an acceptable and even likely outcome of The Plan.

[littlebum2002]

Did Redcloak ever suggest that the Dark One would actually USE the snarl? Or is it just to bluff the gods? If they call his bluff, I think releasing the snarl would hurt him just as much as the other gods.

[Keltest]

Did Redcloak ever suggest that the Dark One would actually USE the snarl? Or is it just to bluff the gods? If they call his bluff, I think releasing the snarl would hurt him just as much as the other gods.

I cant remember where exactly (Ill look) but im fairly certain that Redcloak flat out admits that The Plan has a serious risk of global destruction as a consequence.

Ah hah! found it.

[Morty]

What Redcloak says his motives are and what they really are do not necessarily align. Redcloak says he wants equality for his people. And he certainly does. What he won't admit is his lust for simple revenge and making humans pay. And the desire to justify all he's done and sacrificed so far.

Now, as for the question, I don't think there needs to be one bad guy for the entire comic. I do expect the cadre of villains to thin out in the coming years as the story draws to a close, but I don't believe there will necessarily be a big climactic showdown with the ultimate end boss.

[Rogar Demonblud]

But that's all well and fine, because The Dark One will be in on the creation of the next world.

[Jasdoif]

I cant remember where exactly (Ill look) but im fairly certain that Redcloak flat out admits that The Plan has a serious risk of global destruction as a consequence.

Ah hah! found it.

In addition to that strip....

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Redcloak has admitted that in the case of something going wrong and the Snarl being released, that the world will be destroyed. But as Rogar Demonblud alluded to, Redcloak says that's acceptable because the Dark One will have a part in the creation of the next world, and can keep any of that world's humanoids from being purposefully disadvantaged the way the goblins were in this one. He called it a win for the Dark One "no matter what happens."

I think that may need to sink in a bit: Redcloak finds acceptable a scenario where every goblin on the planet is destroyed.

I'm sure Redcloak supports bettering the condition of goblinoids in the world, but they're still expendable to him, so that cannot be his primary motivation.

[Reddish Mage]

Redcloaks motivations are quite clear as well as why he is evil and isn't meant to be a good guy in anyway (as the Giant has weighed in time and again).

Redcloak wants to bring about the Dark One's plan to set goblinkind on a more "equal footing" with the PC races. This is a goal he is willing to risk the entire universe (including himself) for. It is the ideal and not specific goblins, that Redcloak works for. Actual goblins he sees as expendable (isn't this mentioned on his card in the board game?).

As to why this is evil, its precisely because of what Redcloak is willing to do to fulfill his plan as well as

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

the fact that Redcloak wasn't able to accept his brother's actual humble peaceful goblin village, despite presenting a perfectly pleasant existence, simply because it wasn't the fulfillment of "the Plan."

The fact that Redcloak has a lust for revenge against the Azurites as well as possibly a loathing of humanity in general doesn't help matters.

[hamishspence]

As to why this is evil, its precisely because of what Redcloak is willing to do to fulfill his plan as well as

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

the fact that Redcloak wasn't able to accept his brother's actual humble peaceful goblin village, despite presenting a perfectly pleasant existence, simply because it wasn't the fulfillment of "the Plan."

.

Initially, yes. However:

Spoiler: SOD spoiler

Show

he was able to accept it by the end of that arc - and a happy ending was in the offing - but then Xykon turned up and forced all the goblins in the village to join him, and had the village burnt down.

[littlebum2002]

Am I failing for an unreliable narrator again, like I did with Tarquin?

[runeghost]

I may be wrong but I believe Sabine still has a part to play in the story. It could be she'll help take down Tarquin.

I'm still betting that there will be a line of plot in the lower planes, likely featuring Belkar (deceased), Sabine, and probably some other characters we know.

[Darth Paul]

Am I failing for an unreliable narrator again, like I did with Tarquin?

I don't know what went on between you and Tarquin. But it's dangerous to accept Redcloak's account of his actions and motives at face value, especially when we can look and see them right there on the pages in front of us and see that what he does, does not mesh with what he claims he does (or why he claims he does it). RC is dangerous with a capital D, not only to his enemies but also to his followers and friends; and however sympathetic his backstory is (and believe me, I sympathize), it does not make him less villainous when he goes through with his villainous plots.

Could there be a redemption in his future? Maybe. RC could have a moment of realization leading to a climactic heel-face turn in his arc; but it could just as easily be an Enemy Mine moment when he realizes that he needs Roy's sword and/or Vaarsuvius' magic to defeat Xykon in the end, after which he'll go back to being a villain again (if he survives).

[Zaclock]

How do you get this unbreakable rule that you can't change main antagonists in a story? Certainly an author can create expectations he has no intention of fulfilling, that is how a how most mysteries work as well as the infamous "trick ending."

I never said the rule is unbreakable. I meant the rule is required for good storytelling. "Good" being the key word. Of course, considering not all stories have pro- and antagonists, implied here was the genre of storytelling at play: action. The mystery genre works with its own basic rules to be followed, one of which is: the reader needs to be surprised at the end. But this supports my point: a good storyteller makes sure to respect the basic rules of the story's genre(s). If the story has more than one genre, the good storyteller makes sure to follow all of these genres' basic rules.

OoTS is obviously more than action. But it is primarily action, so I have no doubts we will get this final showdown. There will probably be some further events after that fight, probably some surprising events as well, but these will follow a line of "closure" and "cleaning the holes in the plot" rather than a line of "expanding the plot".

Just take the last book as a case in point. The main antagonist in this book was Tarquin, and the book concluded with an epic fight with Tarquin. I remember somewhere in the forum, some readers expressed disappointment that there wasn't a fight between Team Evil and the Order when they encountered. And The Giant responded there was simply no way there would be such a fight in this book, as the arc's main antagonist was Tarquin, not Xykon. There were a few events after the end of the fight with Tarquin, but I'm quite sure in most readers' mind, after Tarquin fell off the airship, the arc was over. What would follow would close the arc or set the stage for the next one. In the bigger story, there will be no further stage to set after Xykon is out, following good rules of [action] storytelling. What will follow will only be closure.

[Morty]

Spoiler: SoD Spoilders - RE's Village

Show

Redcloak did decide to settle there in the end, before Xykon interfered, but he wasn't entirely wrong earlier, either. Simply settling down and trying to eke out a living on the outskirts of civilized races probably wasn't enough. If the village grew more prosperous, with the help of a powerful cleric, who's to say some adventurers wouldn't decide to cleanse this den of foul goblins?

[Petrocorus]

I think that Redcloak has also more than enough focus on him, that it wouldn't be dissappointing, if he would be the main antagonist in the last minute.

I also believe that RedCloak is the real BBEG, or at least the one who actually understand the situation and know where he is going.
We must not discard Xykon however, he's not stupid and could perfectly understand what RC is planning and turn the situation to his advantage.

I, too, appreciate the reference.

Personally, i don't. Captain?

[Galen]

There's no doubt in my mind that this story will end with Roy defeating the main antagonist, Xykon. Simply because I know The Giant is a fine storyteller. How we will get there, including how Xykon will win over all the other antagonists, is the point of it all.

No matter how many doubts JK Rowling put into her reader's minds about Harry Potter's destiny and Harry Potter defeating, or not defeating, Lord Voldemort, there was never any doubt in my mind HP will defeat LV and live happily every after. And despite the end being predetermined, it was still one heck of a ride.

Same applies for OotS. The end is, I agree, Roy defeating Xykon. The road there is going to be fun.

[ReaderAt2046]

I don't see why you guys keep fingering Redcloak as the "bad guy". His motivation has been extremely empathetic this whole time, he's just trying to get equal rights for his people. I really don't see that being motivation for a "bad guy", it's not even Evil.

Journey before destination. Doing Evil acts for Good reasons is still doing Evil acts.

To put it in other words, Redcloak is not evil because he wants equality for his people, he's evil because he is willing to do evil things to get said equality.

[Porthos]

Journey before destination. Doing Evil acts for Good reasons is still doing Evil acts.

To put it in other words, Redcloak is not evil because he wants equality for his people, he's evil because he is willing to do evil things to get said equality.

This also presumes that he still wants 'just' equality. It's entierly possible to read the current text and to come to a conclusion that Redcloak wants equality.... with interest.

It wouldn't be the first time someone started with noble goals and then lost sight along the way.

[GAAD]

This also presumes that he still wants 'just' equality. It's entierly possible to read the current text and to come to a conclusion that Redcloak wants equality.... with interest.

It wouldn't be the first time someone started with noble goals and then lost sight along the way.

Interesting. now I can't help but compare Redcloak to Forge.
"We burn the present for the sake of a brighter future and act surprised when all it holds is ash."

Redcloak, Don't screw this up.

[Brumagris]

I believe everybody forgot about O´Chul and Lien? They were heading to Kraagor´s gate at the time the OOTS went to Girard´s... if they arrive and there are sapient defense systems, they will probably forge a way to stop or at least contain Xykon and Redcloak... if they arrive and the defenses are not sapient, the least they would do is set an ambush, wouldn´t they?

So, best case scenario, Xykon and Redcloak are blocked, worst case scenario they are ralentized.

[nyjastul69]

I believe everybody forgot about O´Chul and Lien? They were heading to Kraagor´s gate at the time the OOTS went to Girard´s... if they arrive and there are sapient defense systems, they will probably forge a way to stop or at least contain Xykon and Redcloak... if they arrive and the defenses are not sapient, the least they would do is set an ambush, wouldn´t they?

So, best case scenario, Xykon and Redcloak are blocked, worst case scenario they are ralentized.

Ralentized? A quick Google search didn't help. What does that word mean?

[Gandariel]

My 2 cp

There are two books to go.

My personal theory is that *something* will happen in this book, and in the climax the heroes (or the bad guys) (or both ) will step into the "other world " and spend most of the last book there.

Simply because from a narrative standpoint, there isn't much to do here anymore. And they showed us that there IS another world, so something about it will eventually happen.

If the giant wants to make that happen aT the end of this book, I have no idea of what's gonna be in here.right now it looks like it's gonna be an easy road to the big showdown, and even the protagonists are saying they're near to the end.

So I don't know. Surely something cool and interesting will happen and will make it so that the big showdown will not happen in 20 strips.

Also, there's plenty of loose ends to connect in this remaining time. But any speculation on those would really have no basis, so I won't even try

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ralentized? A quick Google search didn't help. What does that word mean?

Slowed down, possibly?

[Petrocorus]

Ralentized? A quick Google search didn't help. What does that word mean?

"Ralenti" is a French word for "slowed down". The Italian is similar. It probably means that.

[Brumagris]

Ralentized? A quick Google search didn't help. What does that word mean?

My bad, English is not my mother tongue.

As explained (thank you very much everybody) I meant slowed down.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ah. In English, that would be 'delayed'.

[nyjastul69]

My bad, English is not my mother tongue.

As explained (thank you very much everybody) I meant slowed down.

Thank you all kindly for the education.

[Petrocorus]

My bad, English is not my mother tongue.

As explained (thank you very much everybody) I meant slowed down.

Would Brumagris means something like GreyFog?

[Brumagris]

Would Brumagris means something like GreyFog?

It is a pretty good translation, yes.


Having the English part sorted out, would it be time to come back to ontopic before a mod puts us up to our toes¿? :P

In the case that O´Chul and Lien arrive and have to face Team Evil, what do you guys think would be their best shot? Please, consider that they have plenty of time to prepare a good strategy and ambush.