**league_of_legends_thread_62: show_running_gag_title("The Wins Of Winthur");

[Don Julio Anejo]

Any time braum enters the field, this summoner must role play him in all-chat.

Because every day is a glorious day for goat milking!

[PersonMan]

So I considered my previous experiences with Trinity Force Malphite, and decided that Ghostblade/Trinity Force -> fulltank would be an interesting build to try. My thoughts were 'oh I'll be able to split push and take towers crazy fast with the +%AD, ArPen, +AS and Sheen proc'. Turns out it also gives you massive burst in mid-game fights.

Although, I will admit that I was up against a Darius who kept making the same mistake, and got so fed that my build didn't matter as much as it would in a more evenly matched game.

(The second Brutalizer is there because we were on the verge of going Baron -> Win and I though 'eh why not, not like I'm taking much damage anyways'.)

[Grytorm]

I usually go Haunting Guise if I want damage on Malphite. So I can feast on their flesh.

Also I realized something. I remember playing against Kassadin once and getting really frustrated at the damage he was dealing to me with Q whenever I tried to harass him. The secret is to keep harassing after he Qs to deal additional damage while he can't retaliate.

[Math_Mage]

I usually go Haunting Guise if I want damage on Malphite. So I can feast on their flesh.

Also I realized something. I remember playing against Kassadin Zilean once and getting really frustrated at the damage he was dealing to me with Q whenever I tried to harass him. The secret is to keep harassing after he Qs to deal additional damage while he can't retaliate.

[PersonMan]

I usually go Haunting Guise if I want damage on Malphite. So I can feast on their flesh.

I did / still do similarly, most of the time - the idea came to me after a slow progression (I went for IBG a few games, ended up going somewhat-AD to help compensate for an almost complete lack of physical damage on the team, and it evolved from there) away from 'ap/mpen' to 'what if ad'.

I do like the thought experiment of Bloodthirsterx4/Sword of the Divine/Infinity Edge (or something a bit different now that BT isn't the 100 AD perfect-crit-fuel it used to be) for absurd abuse of his W.

Also I realized something. I remember playing against Kassadin once and getting really frustrated at the damage he was dealing to me with Q whenever I tried to harass him. The secret is to keep harassing after he Qs to deal additional damage while he can't retaliate.

Well, he does get a shield, so if you're an AP mid it might not be the best time to throw some spells at him.

But in general if you're trading with someone who only has one or two big trading spells, then throwing out more of your own (and autos) is a good way to beat them. Sure, that [spell name here] may have hurt a lot, but if you can hit him with two of your own while your only fear is a Random Ignite or 46 damage autos, then you can turn the trade around.

[Ashen Lilies]

You want at least a single Hydra in that build, just so he does more damage to the people next to his target, than the person he's actually punching.

[Recaiden]

Don't joke about random ignites.

[TechnOkami]

So I think ARAM is the only game mode I can play Skarner and feel relevant using him.

And I was both happy that someone else could use him well, but incredibly pissed off that I haven't been able to use him as effectively ever since his latest rework.

[sonofzeal]

So I think ARAM is the only game mode I can play Skarner and feel relevant using him.

I always felt ARAM favoured long poke, which doesn't really spell "Skarner" to me. How does he work there?

[Math_Mage]

I always felt ARAM favoured long poke, which doesn't really spell "Skarner" to me. How does he work there?

The Skarner had a Xerath and Lucian on his team for poke, plus Jarvan to co-engage; Techn0's team was mainly on low-mobility champs and had little disengage, so Skarner could walk up under covering fire and ult someone. Even at that, it doesn't seem like the Skarner did exceptionally well, at least not from the stat line.

[TechnOkami]

I always felt ARAM favoured long poke, which doesn't really spell "Skarner" to me. How does he work there?

Well, the Skarner I saw bought a Sheen and proceeded to rush a TF, then go into Sunfire Cape & Tanky Items. He was always running at us to harass us and generally being a lane bully. His team was also just really good at punishing us whenever we made mistakes, which was probably one of the keys to his success.

[Siosilvar]

Skarner is amazing and I resent your implications. The racecar is alive and well.

[also try AP skarner some time; pushing W and getting 700+ shield instantly is hilarious, though not actually as good as Triforce->Tank->optional BoRK]

[ex cathedra]

yo skarner has a >50% winrate at pretty much every elo, he's by no means a weak champion and one shouldn't let any perception of a champion affect how much they like to play it. furthermore, everyone sucks at champions they don't play. time spent lamenting something like that is much better spent queueing up for a solo queue or even normal game and practicing.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Quick question, was going D-Shield-> brute->LW a good idea?
Edit: I mean it worked in the end, but I'm not sure it was the best idea, for the record I was laning vs. another Riven who absolutely crushed me in lane (died two times and she took all my towers before I took one of hers), but once I got a couple kills (thanks to my jungler and some roaming) I managed to return to the game.

[Winthur]

Quick question, was going D-Shield-> brute->LW a good idea?
Edit: I mean it worked in the end, but I'm not sure it was the best idea, for the record I was laning vs. another Riven who absolutely crushed me in lane (died two times and she took all my towers before I took one of hers), but once I got a couple kills (thanks to my jungler and some roaming) I managed to return to the game.

Why would you go D.Shield in a Riven mirror matchup? More sustain can be gotten with Long Sword starts and better all-ins are provided by Doran's Blade and fort pot starts. Sounds really passive.

LW maybe a little too early, Hydra or finished Ghostblade could be better but it isn't bad and you want it anyway sometime.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I wasn't sure I could beat the other Riven (I lolnexus'ed and she had about 10 or so ranked games with Riven) and I was having some ping issues (it was hovering between 200-300 but it went down to normal about 5 minutes into the game) so I decided to go with the D.Shield for sustain, I thought the damage reduction on AA and the extra health regen would be enough, I was obviously mistaken. I went LW after my brute because for some reason I had enough for one but not for a Tiamat. After that I got several kills in a relatively short amount of times and I got a full bloodthirster in one go.

[ex cathedra]

went LW after my brute because for some reason I had enough for one but not for a Tiamat.

lmao no you didn't, tiamat's recipe includes both parts of LW's recipe and tiamat is the cheaper item. the scenario you described is literally never possible

[Mtg_player_zach]

So I think ARAM is the only game mode I can play Skarner and feel relevant using him.

And I was both happy that someone else could use him well, but incredibly pissed off that I haven't been able to use him as effectively ever since his latest rework.

Skarner is a viable jungle in TT as well just fyi.

[Grytorm]

does[/I] get a shield, so if you're an AP mid it might not be the best time to throw some spells at him.

But in general if you're trading with someone who only has one or two big trading spells, then throwing out more of your own (and autos) is a good way to beat them. Sure, that [spell name here] may have hurt a lot, but if you can hit him with two of your own while your only fear is a Random Ignite or 46 damage autos, then you can turn the trade around.

Ideally it would be after you got the spell damage which you would probably follow up with autos. What is important is only be scared of damage when they have damage. I realized this by watching youtube videos of Scarra playing Swain versus Riven top. So when he got bursted to half health and then had Riven disengage he just through a bit more damage and ult pulses.

[Dienekes]

Hello, wise folk. I just had one of the most interestingly terrible games I've ever played and I was wondering some advice on the situation for later reference.

Spoiler

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This was in solo queue with a buddy of mine. So we didn't really know what we were getting into as the game started but we found in the loading screen something interesting about our enemy team.

First us.
Top: Pantheon (Me)
Mid: Ahri (Buddy)
Jungle: Lee Sin
Adc: Jinx
Support: Karma

Seems pretty normal, not the most team oriented set up but it should work.

Our enemy was this.
Top: Alistar
Mid: Dr. Mundo
Jungle: Zac
Bot1: Nasus
Bot2: Malphite
All of them with teleport.

Now the game was a mess. I have a little distinction in being the only one on my team to win my lane. And our jungler died 3 times to their Mundo within the first 10 minutes, which let him push out our mid. Followed by their Zac getting a triple kill in bot and taking the tower.
Now from this point we transitioned to mid game and that's where the real trouble began. They could all take all the damage we could conceivably give them and then some. They basically pushed up mid and bot taking towers and inhibitors as they went. We as a team sort of fell into a pattern. We would gather to defend a tower, the Lee Sin would get bored and charge into them, and either we would all go to try and help, and they'd kill us. Or we would just let him die because it was stupid to engage, followed by one of their group (usually Nasus) teleporting to another tower to take it down. Either I would go to defend that tower with my jump, which usually saved the tower but the Nasus would wither me and run away while the rest of their team would initiate on and slaughter the squishy back line I left behind, or I would let the tower die and just let the Nasus farm.

So really, my main question comes in. What would you do in this situation? Is it better to follow your initiator in, even when it's been shown not to work 3 times in a row. Or is it better to let the guy die pointlessly in the hope that your tower will make up the slack? And when is it best to go defend the tower, and when should I just let it die to help the rest of the team?

And to hopefully counter a point that will be brought up against me. I did, multiple times, ask Lee Sin to stay defensive, and focus on farming for late game when hopefully our Adc would start shredding them. He didn't listen and just kept on jumping in the thick of combat whenever he could.

[ex cathedra]

So really, my main question comes in. What would you do in this situation? Is it better to follow your initiator in, even when it's been shown not to work 3 times in a row. Or is it better to let the guy die pointlessly in the hope that your tower will make up the slack? And when is it best to go defend the tower, and when should I just let it die to help the rest of the team?

• winning lane as pantheon is never something that deserves distinction
• your first mistake is attempting to tell solo-queue teammates what to do, especially those who are clearly tilted. that may as well never work.
• you literally have no reasonable chance of winning 4v5, so your choices are either to (lose quickly/possibly win) by following lee sin or (lose slowly/have no chance of winning) by sitting under turret 4v5.

[Dienekes]

[*]winning lane as pantheon is never something that deserves distinction

Hey, I've won lane as pantheon against enemy pantheons. That's got to be worth at least a pat on the head.

[*]your first mistake is attempting to tell solo-queue teammates what to do, especially those who are clearly tilted. that may as well never work.[*]you literally have no reasonable chance of winning 4v5, so your choices are either to (lose quickly/possibly win) by following lee sin or (lose slowly/have no chance of winning) by sitting under turret 4v5.

Thank you, I will keep this in mind.

[ex cathedra]

solo-queue is a dark, dark place, but the old league adage "it's better for 5 people to make the wrong play than for 4 people to make the right one" tends to remain true.

i've played a decent number of games and interacted with other players in a decent number of ways, and i can't honestly say that i recall a game in which i ever said anything to a teammate that was raging or tilting or playing poorly that actually changed the outcome of the game. the only thing that you're responsible for is your own play, so focus on that. of course there's nothing wrong with calling for objectives or MIAs or jungle invades or anything of that nature that requires a team effort, but telling another player how they should be playing the game has never really accomplished anything for me.

in unrelated news, levelling smurfs is obnoxious. there's literally no reason for it to take this long, and having to play like 25 games to unlock flash is ludicrous.

[Ionbound]

@Leveling: Mmhmm. I agree. I figure leveling should take ~60 wins, 10 to reach level 10, 20 more to reach level 20, and another 30 to reach level 30.

[Nadevoc]

You know, it's kind of interesting that watching the best teams in the world like the world finals is actually a really bad way to improve at League, because so much of what they're doing (rotations and the like) doesn't really translate into your games.

Spoiler: Finals Game One

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So far, looks like the stomp that's been expected. SSW pulling off some very nice tower dives, grabbing a lead, then just snowballing it way out of control

[ex cathedra]

You know, it's kind of interesting that watching the best teams in the world like the world finals is actually a really bad way to improve at League, because so much of what they're doing (rotations and the like) doesn't really translate into your games.

the fact that people don't often do those things doesn't mean that they aren't good strategies. deep warding the early jungle and coordinating early-game 3/4 man-roams is a very potent and cerebral way to play solo queue. a replay file of this game would be an excellent learning tool for mid laners and jungers, though watching the stream broadcast would admittedly be much less efficient in that regard

was it anarion who said that jayce would be banned? ayy lmao

[Nadevoc]

There are definitely parts that can be pulled into everyone's games - for example, warding (specifically pink warding) the behind-the-red brush is something I need to start doing. I think the communication of some things like tower dives doesn't really translate very well into particularly solo queue, though; you see world level teams diving in synch and coming out with one or two tower shots of health left, meaning that someone going in two seconds left would be the difference between success and failure - and in solo queue, you can't really rely on perfect timing with folks. Maybe at higher skill levels, I don't know, but even as someone who tends to have a good amount of faith in random pubbies, I don't want to trust to being perfectly in synch with them. It feels like you need to be ahead already to pull off the plays that top level teams are making to get ahead.

Spoiler: Game Three Jungle

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Insec built Madred's on Rammus? Feels weird to me, since Rammus likes building HP (and thus would like the AG passive bonus), doesn't have a great clear IMO (so isn't going to super stack a Wiggly Lantern), and seems like quite a gank-heavy jungler (again, not great for Lantern).

Opinions on this/reasons for it?

[Ashen Lilies]

Spoiler: Madreds Rammus (+ Worlds Spoilers)

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Game's over, so you know this already, but it looks like it was purely for the clearspeed: he stopped at madreds and picked up the SotAG afterwards. Looking forward to the unexpected game 4.

[Winthur]

Spoiler: Madred Rammus

Show

Lantern isn't a bad solo queue item on Rammus; you can funnel it through assists and fall back on it if ganks are hard to do. Rammus has a surprisingly strong 1v1 if he locks you up with Taunt and autos+Tremors you, Wriggles helps in that regard.

In Insec's case it was there to help out with Rammus' crappy clear speed into SotAG since he needs to be a tanky presence immediately. Like a reversed Madstone.

[Anarion]

There are definitely parts that can be pulled into everyone's games - for example, warding (specifically pink warding) the behind-the-red brush is something I need to start doing. I think the communication of some things like tower dives doesn't really translate very well into particularly solo queue, though; you see world level teams diving in synch and coming out with one or two tower shots of health left, meaning that someone going in two seconds left would be the difference between success and failure - and in solo queue, you can't really rely on perfect timing with folks. Maybe at higher skill levels, I don't know, but even as someone who tends to have a good amount of faith in random pubbies, I don't want to trust to being perfectly in synch with them. It feels like you need to be ahead already to pull off the plays that top level teams are making to get ahead.

Spoiler: Game Three Jungle

Show

Insec built Madred's on Rammus? Feels weird to me, since Rammus likes building HP (and thus would like the AG passive bonus), doesn't have a great clear IMO (so isn't going to super stack a Wiggly Lantern), and seems like quite a gank-heavy jungler (again, not great for Lantern).

Opinions on this/reasons for it?

The other thing, though, is that people in solo queue aren't going to position perfectly for your dive or have their teammates respond as fast as the people in a pro game respond. So, if you do it in solo queue and it takes you a couple seconds longer of pinging to get your teammates on the same page with you, that might be just fine if the dive itself is still a good move.

Also, sometimes they're worth it anyway. If you dive bot lane as the jungler, for example, and unlike the pros, one of your guys ends up dying but you kill both bot laners and leave your ADC with freefarm, then it's a pretty solid advantage for you, even if it's less of an advantage than you'd have had with perfect execution.

Spoiler: Madred Rammus

Show

Lantern isn't a bad solo queue item on Rammus; you can funnel it through assists and fall back on it if ganks are hard to do. Rammus has a surprisingly strong 1v1 if he locks you up with Taunt and autos+Tremors you, Wriggles helps in that regard.

In Insec's case it was there to help out with Rammus' crappy clear speed into SotAG since he needs to be a tanky presence immediately. Like a reversed Madstone.

Spoiler: Are we still spoilering the finals?

Show

It worked pretty well, I think. Insec several times ended up at unexpected spots and I think part of that was that White had very little sense of how fast he was clearing things and where he was going.