Mass Effect: General thread of Awesomeness

[Avilan the Grey]

Eh, I'm okay.

Her reboot is so much better when you see it in person

[Leon]

I'll have to try on this run through then, its up as an option now but i am going to wait till i have Tali

[RagingKrikkit]

Artist's depiction of Earth's defense forces fighting against the Reapers:

I love Calvin and Hobbes

Oh i love the M-98 Widow. My Renegade Infiltrator was using the Mantis up until that point as the Viper didn't feel punchy enough and i hate the Incisor. Assuming Direct Control BOOM!, Rinse repeat.

If you hate the incisor in 2, you'll despise it in 3, when they loaded the thing up with recoil. Personally I like the Viper, but that might just be my thing for semi-auto weapons, but swap it out for the widow when Krogan, Scions or Thresher Maws are ahead. Also, when you get to 3 I suggest giving the Javelin a try. There's a bit of a charge time you've got to get used to, but he return is even more damage. Everybody likes more damage, right?

[Psyren]

Her reboot is so much better when you see it in person

EDI + Vega is my favorite, followed by EDI + Garrus, then EDI + Wrex.

But again, if you have an all ME1 team, you get some great scenes inside the Normandy itself, particularly on the elevator.

[Landis963]

EDI + Vega is my favorite, followed by EDI + Garrus, then EDI + Wrex.

But again, if you have an all ME1 team, you get some great scenes inside the Normandy itself, particularly on the elevator.

"I thought antique stores were your favorite place to shoot through?"

"So, [VS], remember when I asked you if you or Shepard would win in a fight?"
"I was hoping you'd forgotten about that."

"You're the crazy, headbutting uncle I never had."

[RagingKrikkit]

"Does anybody else miss those talks we'd have on the elevators on the Citadel? Just me?"

Back in 1 my go-to team was Garrus and Wrex, and it felt so damn good to have them togeher again.

[Psyren]

Poor Garrus was the only one who liked the elevators. Which even made sense, since he was the only one of the original group to have lived on the Citadel.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I kind of missed the surprise dialogue your crew would generate at certain points of ME1. I know in ME2 some squad mate dialogue became "use" options and ME3 took your squad away from you altogether when out of combat.

The dialogue which genuinely surprised me, it's from ME1 so probably no spoilers needed but just in case.

Spoiler

Show

Bring Wrex and Tali with you to visit the Krogan Monument. The previous times I went there it was Wrex talking about how peaceful it is or musing about the lost honor of the Krogan. But to my surprise it's Tali who speaks up and she actually seems bitter about how the krogan get to keep a statue on the Citadel despite the Krogan Rebellions while the quarians are outcast. Wrex then shoots back by noting that the statue might be the only thing left of the krogan soon enough. It seemed completely out of character for her in that moment, I had her pegged as something of an easy-going youngster, but upon reflection and after learning more quarian history it made sense.

But then I really liked the juicy eavesdropping you could do in the later games. Illium is just full of it, hell I think ME2 has the best eavesdropping of the series. From the Friendzone Turian to the Salarian stepdad and "I think I'm the father" krogan I would actually stop what I was doing to listen.

ME3 had some too, but a lot of it was kind of depressing to be honest. It did help immerse me in the whole galactic war theme they had going on but damn. With the refugee camps and everything, I think at least half the dialogue you eavesdrop on is something tragic.

[Morty]

At least in Mass Effect, the dialogue is varied enough that you'll need to pass through the given location a few times to hear the whole dialogue. Other games will have to listen to the same damn conversation over and over. Skyrim and the Witcher games are big offenders.

[Psyren]

I loved the background chatter in ME as well. There were Michael and Rebecca, that poor guy trying to get a refund since ME1, "Presidium-fish-Krogan," Jedore yelling over the PA, Afterlife VIP, Hock's party... almost as much care went into the tertiary NPCs as did the squadmates themselves.

And Charr made me practically tear up.

[Landis963]

I loved the background chatter in ME as well. There were Michael and Rebecca, that poor guy trying to get a refund since ME1, "Presidium-fish-Krogan," Jedore yelling over the PA, Afterlife VIP, Hock's party... almost as much care went into the tertiary NPCs as did the squadmates themselves.

And Charr made me practically tear up.

Charr did make me tear up.

Say what you will about ME team's capacity for long-term storylines, their small-scale character stuff, from squaddie to NPC, was brilliant.

[Leon]

I took Wrex into the Casino with me. Oh what a hoot.
The whole sequence from the sushi bar to rescue was a lot easier this time around with Tactical Cloak

Also have a hot contender to my love of SMGs ~ Geth Assault rifle with Cryo rounds, High Capacity and Accurate ~ tho not as light (SMG is +114% vs the Rifles +29%)

[LibraryOgre]

So, a couple thoughts on what would've made Paragon/Renegade better (at least from an ME2 standpoint)

1) Getting one type doesn't take away from the other. If you keep making paragon choices, with a few appropriate bits of renegade thrown in, your paragon score doesn't go down.

2) Making it a frequent CHOICE between the two. Not "Click here for Renegade" or "Click Here for Paragon" scattered throughout, but frequent points where you can choose either renegade or paragon at the same moment... and have to pick one.

[Rodin]

2) Making it a frequent CHOICE between the two. Not "Click here for Renegade" or "Click Here for Paragon" scattered throughout, but frequent points where you can choose either renegade or paragon at the same moment... and have to pick one.

Well, in dialogue you mostly did have two choices. The problem I had was that it only really mattered in a few major choices - typically speaking, you just chose whichever one had the score for and you got the good result. The Loyalty missions gave you good results whether you picked Renegade or Paragon, apart from the DLC characters. Squabbles between squadmates could be resolved by either path. Maybe a Paragon Shepard shouldn't be able to patch up the fight between Miranda and Jack. Heck, maybe a fully Renegade Shep shouldn't be able to either. If you're full Paragon you're unwilling to work with Cerberus any more than neccessary, which makes Miranda not trust you enough to back down. If you're full Renegade, Jack thinks you're too buddy-buddy with Cerberus and won't trust you.

I think Mass Effect would benefit massively from a Dragon Age style approval system. Mix that with Pargon and Renegade and you've got a much more realistic set of follower interactions. Add into that more nuance in the Paragon/Renegade system (more bad Paragon choices, more good Renegade choices) and maybe removing the colors so it isn't just a "pick obviously improved option" and instead picking which fits your character best.

[Sasaisen]

Well, in dialogue you mostly did have two choices. The problem I had was that it only really mattered in a few major choices - typically speaking, you just chose whichever one had the score for and you got the good result. The Loyalty missions gave you good results whether you picked Renegade or Paragon, apart from the DLC characters. Squabbles between squadmates could be resolved by either path. Maybe a Paragon Shepard shouldn't be able to patch up the fight between Miranda and Jack. Heck, maybe a fully Renegade Shep shouldn't be able to either. If you're full Paragon you're unwilling to work with Cerberus any more than neccessary, which makes Miranda not trust you enough to back down. If you're full Renegade, Jack thinks you're too buddy-buddy with Cerberus and won't trust you.

I think Mass Effect would benefit massively from a Dragon Age style approval system. Mix that with Pargon and Renegade and you've got a much more realistic set of follower interactions. Add into that more nuance in the Paragon/Renegade system (more bad Paragon choices, more good Renegade choices) and maybe removing the colors so it isn't just a "pick obviously improved option" and instead picking which fits your character best.

Thing is, that only works until your first batch of players take to the internet and say "you should pick the renegade option here" and "don't take this paragon interrupt, it'll screw you up later."

[Landis963]

Thing is, that only works until your first batch of players take to the internet and say "you should pick the renegade option here" and "don't take this paragon interrupt, it'll screw you up later."

Pft, people did that with any other Bioware game where choices mattered. "Pick the Renegade option when talking to Kelly, she dies otherwise." "Don't take the Paragon interrupt if you killed the quarians, it doesn't work."

[Psyren]

Well, in dialogue you mostly did have two choices. The problem I had was that it only really mattered in a few major choices - typically speaking, you just chose whichever one had the score for and you got the good result. The Loyalty missions gave you good results whether you picked Renegade or Paragon, apart from the DLC characters. Squabbles between squadmates could be resolved by either path. Maybe a Paragon Shepard shouldn't be able to patch up the fight between Miranda and Jack. Heck, maybe a fully Renegade Shep shouldn't be able to either. If you're full Paragon you're unwilling to work with Cerberus any more than neccessary, which makes Miranda not trust you enough to back down. If you're full Renegade, Jack thinks you're too buddy-buddy with Cerberus and won't trust you.

I think Mass Effect would benefit massively from a Dragon Age style approval system. Mix that with Pargon and Renegade and you've got a much more realistic set of follower interactions. Add into that more nuance in the Paragon/Renegade system (more bad Paragon choices, more good Renegade choices) and maybe removing the colors so it isn't just a "pick obviously improved option" and instead picking which fits your character best.

Disagree completely. The fact that there was a smooth-talk and tough-guy-talk way to resolve the major schisms was a good decision on Bioware's part. The fact that both a Paragon and Renegade could get Saren to blow his own brains out was great.

Bioware already did what they needed to in those situations - with Miranda/Jack, Paragons calm them down more easily, and with Legion/Tali, Renegades calm them down more easily. That's all you need, and you only need it one or two times. The rest they can have equal chances of success. I am perfectly fine with that.

Aside from the metagame issues Sasai mentioned, by gating the "good" outcomes to one conversation extreme or another, you just end up removing that agency from the players entirely. "Well I know going in I won't have the sliver-tongued Shepard that I wanted to play, so why bother at all? I'll just kneecap all my problems or use mods."

[Rodin]

Pft, people did that with any other Bioware game where choices mattered. "Pick the Renegade option when talking to Kelly, she dies otherwise." "Don't take the Paragon interrupt if you killed the quarians, it doesn't work."

Indeed.

Yeah, sure you can use guides to get the Golden Ending or whatever, but what matters is how most people will play the game - without using a guide. My favorite playthrough of Mass Effect is still my first, where Mordin successfully convinced me to destroy Maelon's cure, and then Wrex was seriously pissed off with me the following game, only coming around after the genophage cure was properly released. It's become my head-canon for how events actually played out.

More chances for that sort of plot can only be a good thing - doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, or doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. Then you see the consequences, and act differently in future. I find that far more interesting than a choice between "Saint Shepard who is always upstanding and just" and "Ruthless Shepard who will destroy anyone or anything in their way."

[Sasaisen]

Pft, people did that with any other Bioware game where choices mattered. "Pick the Renegade option when talking to Kelly, she dies otherwise." "Don't take the Paragon interrupt if you killed the quarians, it doesn't work."

That's what I'm saying. The people who are inclined towards roleplay are going to pick the appropriate choices regardless, while the people who aren't will pick blue or red or whatever whenever it is advantageous to them as long as they have the opportunity. The only way to overcome that while still accumulating morality points is to make the two mutually exclusive, at which point you're back to either something like a conventional light/dark morality meter and all the many pitfalls we know that entails. Having some choices be counterintuitively good or bad doesn't change player behavior in general, but if you have a system where the player is expected to "earn" special options, it renders that system partially or entirely moot, and in effect only smacks the players who are playing the game as intended.

Not that I'm advocating against having less desirable "good" options, more desirable "bad" options, or more complex choices in general; it just doesn't actually fix the flaws in point-based morality systems.

[Avilan the Grey]

That's what I'm saying. The people who are inclined towards roleplay are going to pick the appropriate choices regardless, while the people who aren't will pick blue or red or whatever whenever it is advantageous to them as long as they have the opportunity. The only way to overcome that while still accumulating morality points is to make the two mutually exclusive, at which point you're back to either something like a conventional light/dark morality meter and all the many pitfalls we know that entails. Having some choices be counterintuitively good or bad doesn't change player behavior in general, but if you have a system where the player is expected to "earn" special options, it renders that system partially or entirely moot, and in effect only smacks the players who are playing the game as intended.

Not that I'm advocating against having less desirable "good" options, more desirable "bad" options, or more complex choices in general; it just doesn't actually fix the flaws in point-based morality systems.

Not sure I follow you; first of all roleplaying and picking the most beneficial option is not necessarily in conflict, after all and why would you have to "overcome" players posting tips online?

[Psyren]

Making the blue and red options not be the best ways to solve a dialogue encounter is just underhanded and sneaky. It would be like a D&D module where higher diplomacy rolls or Charisma causes your character to make situations worse.

The Shepards who have played in such a way as to make those options viable whenever they come up want their build choices to matter. They could have maxed out Singularity or Inferno Grenade or whatever first and breezed through those early fights; instead they went with that passive that makes them a smooth talker and postponed the raw power options for later. This is a valid playstyle and should be rewarded by the designers by making those options beneficial.

[Rodin]

Making the blue and red options not be the best ways to solve a dialogue encounter is just underhanded and sneaky. It would be like a D&D module where higher diplomacy rolls or Charisma causes your character to make situations worse.

The Shepards who have played in such a way as to make those options viable whenever they come up want their build choices to matter. They could have maxed out Singularity or Inferno Grenade or whatever first and breezed through those early fights; instead they went with that passive that makes them a smooth talker and postponed the raw power options for later. This is a valid playstyle and should be rewarded by the designers by making those options beneficial.

I had honestly forgotten that there were reputation boosters in the games.

Still doesn't change my opinion from a role-playing point of view though - Mass Effect, much moreso than other Bioware games, felt like it was punishing you for being inconsistent. Combined with the different colored options, this meant that there was an instant pause whenever the two came up.

For example: I am playing a Paragon Shep. I do Mordin's Loyalty quest, and destroying Maelon's data sounds like the Paragon thing to do. It was obtainted by horrible processes, and was actively dangerous to be kept around. Keeping the data is very Renegade - use what you get, no matter how it was acquired. And yet, keeping the data is Paragon and destroying it Renegade, and the game broadcasts this to you with it's choices. It was very jarring.

I simply hate morality systems that require you to blindly pick a particular choice. That's how I always felt playing Mass Effect - if I'm Paragon and there's a Blue option, I am expected if not required to take it. Even if the Renegade option makes more sense.

[Psyren]

For example: I am playing a Paragon Shep. I do Mordin's Loyalty quest, and destroying Maelon's data sounds like the Paragon thing to do. It was obtainted by horrible processes, and was actively dangerous to be kept around. Keeping the data is very Renegade - use what you get, no matter how it was acquired. And yet, keeping the data is Paragon and destroying it Renegade, and the game broadcasts this to you with it's choices. It was very jarring.

I simply hate morality systems that require you to blindly pick a particular choice. That's how I always felt playing Mass Effect - if I'm Paragon and there's a Blue option, I am expected if not required to take it. Even if the Renegade option makes more sense.

1) Nothing required you to blindly pick anything. The choice you make at the end of a loyalty mission (Maelon's cure, the Heretics' fate, letting Miranda go to her sister or not) didn't amount to a hill of beans compared to all the other choices you make in the game. So you should feel free to vote your conscience there. And none of the options there were color-coded either.

2) I'm not sure why you think destroying Maelon's data sounds Paragon, but you may not have been paying attention to the full scene. There is one upper dialogue option prior to the final choice, where Shepard can assert that the data is tainted and acquired by questionable means ("tests on living victims"). Yet Mordin himself counters your statement with a simple fact: "Right now, victims died for nothing. Keep it, use it, deaths worth something." That is the important line, the one that tells you without a doubt why keeping the data is Paragon.

Besides, your argument is pretty clearly a fallacy. "Use what you get, no matter how it was acquired" cannot be a Renegade attitude on its own - the very ship you're flying around in in ME2 was acquired by breaking multiple Alliance and galactic laws. It's too simplistic to look at origin in isolation like that.

[Kiero]

I have to say, while I generally enjoy ME2 more than ME3, plot-wise, combat is much better for power-users in ME3. I think I'm abandoning my Engineer playthrough, I'm just not enjoying it as much as I do Soldier. Just doing my first ever ME2-import ME2 playthrough, starting out at level 30 with all my favourite guns is fun.

[Leon]

I'm abandoning my Engineer playthrough, I'm just not enjoying it as much as I do Soldier.

Of everything i have done thus far Engineer has been my Fav, i abandoned the soldier play through in ME1 as i found it boring as heck and started the Current Infiltrator instead.

[Sasaisen]

Not sure I follow you; first of all roleplaying and picking the most beneficial option is not necessarily in conflict, after all and why would you have to "overcome" players posting tips online?

I'm not trying to stormwind here. Let me break down my argument.

You have a system where players accumulate red and blue points based on their choices. As a reward for accumulating these points, players unlock very red or very blue dialogue options. Rodin suggested that sometimes these red and blue dialogue options should hurt you. This is a bad idea because it undermines this system. If red and blue aren't beneficial, then what is the advantage for a player of engaging the system and accumulating these points?

Then you add on the metagame aspect. Even if the "bad" options are not obvious, this is the age of the internet and they will soon be known about. As long as there are dialogue options that do not suck, whether the other color option or one of the normal choices, much of your playerbase is going to take them as soon as they hit the first option that should be a reward but is actually not. Thus you hit the disparity. In much the same way that DRM often inconveniences paying customers more than it does pirates, your "surprise" choices are going to penalize players who are playing the game as you intend (i.e. following one of your two morality paths) more.

There's only two remedies to that disparity while keeping every part of that system I've mentioned in place.

• Make the points easy to accumulate, so that no one is penalized unless they want to be. At which point, "playing the game as you intend" means everyone mix-and-matching both moral tracks, and why have the points system or morality tracks at all?
• Make the points mutually exclusive, either explicitly (KOTOR light side/dark side) or practically (ME2, where you're hurt if you don't wring every morality point out of each encounter). Both of these have proved unsatisfying.

Again, I'm not advocating against more complex choices in games, but morality point systems do not lend themselves towards that.

[Psyren]

I'm not trying to stormwind here. Let me break down my argument.

You have a system where players accumulate red and blue points based on their choices. As a reward for accumulating these points, players unlock very red or very blue dialogue options. Rodin suggested that sometimes these red and blue dialogue options should hurt you. This is a bad idea because it undermines this system. If red and blue aren't beneficial, then what is the advantage for a player of engaging the system and accumulating these points?

Then you add on the metagame aspect. Even if the "bad" options are not obvious, this is the age of the internet and they will soon be known about. As long as there are dialogue options that do not suck, whether the other color option or one of the normal choices, much of your playerbase is going to take them as soon as they hit the first option that should be a reward but is actually not. Thus you hit the disparity. In much the same way that DRM often inconveniences paying customers more than it does pirates, your "surprise" choices are going to penalize players who are playing the game as you intend (i.e. following one of your two morality paths) more.

All of this.

There's only two remedies to that disparity while keeping every part of that system I've mentioned in place.

• Make the points easy to accumulate, so that no one is penalized unless they want to be. At which point, "playing the game as you intend" means everyone mix-and-matching both moral tracks, and why have the points system or morality tracks at all?
• Make the points mutually exclusive, either explicitly (KOTOR light side/dark side) or practically (ME2, where you're hurt if you don't wring every morality point out of each encounter). Both of these have proved unsatisfying.

Again, I'm not advocating against more complex choices in games, but morality point systems do not lend themselves towards that.

Option 1 can actually work, and in fact it's essentially what they did in ME3 with the dual-sided "reputation" bar. You effectively got both paragon and renegade for most conversations.

However, it is actually very possible to not have enough points in ME3 if you (a) skip a bunch of sidequests, (b) skip talking to the folks in the Normandy between missions and (c) neglect your charisma/reputation-boosting passive.

This is actually good design - it pits a player's in-game objective (be a silver-tongued master of space who can get all the best talky rewards, like keeping friends alive) against a player's out-of-game objective (blaze through the game and get to the ending.) Or at least, it would have been good design... if this wasn't a western RPG, where most players actually want to stop and smell the daisies, and not rush through the game doing as little as possible. And so very few players are going to do (a) while almost zero will do (b), keeping their reputation bar pretty high and contributing to the feel that conversation checks are too easy.

I'm not sure what the best solution would be. Personally I would like it if the longer you took to get to the endgame, the harder it would be. Not only would this have made thematic sense (the reapers/collectors get stronger the longer you wait, and in the case of the former, your allies get weaker over time too), but also, it would really exemplify the paragon/renegade dynamic of righteous yet difficult vs. fast, easy and destructive. The problem though is that the folks who stop to smell the daisies and enjoy the conversation parts of Mass Effect the most are often the least facile at shooter combat, so you run the risk of making the game unfinishable for those folks who enjoy the adventure-game aspect.

[LibraryOgre]

Of everything i have done thus far Engineer has been my Fav, i abandoned the soldier play through in ME1 as i found it boring as heck and started the Current Infiltrator instead.

Engineer was my favorite, though I'm enjoying my Infiltrator's ability to just say "You die now" is pretty fun. I started with Reave as my bonus ability, but have switched over to Fortification... the ability to just instantly save my butt with a powerful biotic field is wonderful.

(I went with Fortification over any of the tech powers because I like the idea that my Shep picked up some eezo contamination when she spent some time dead in space).

Another thing I'd really have liked to have seen? Your bonus powers transfering over from game to game. If I picked Shotguns in ME1, I should be able to use Shotguns in ME2 and ME3.

[Psyren]

Engineer was my favorite, though I'm enjoying my Infiltrator's ability to just say "You die now" is pretty fun. I started with Reave as my bonus ability, but have switched over to Fortification... the ability to just instantly save my butt with a powerful biotic field is wonderful.

(I went with Fortification over any of the tech powers because I like the idea that my Shep picked up some eezo contamination when she spent some time dead in space).

Did you mean Barrier here? Fortification is the non-biotic one.

Another thing I'd really have liked to have seen? Your bonus powers transfering over from game to game. If I picked Shotguns in ME1, I should be able to use Shotguns in ME2 and ME3.

ME1 -> ME2 was a drastic enough weapons change that I was okay with them deferring the bonus weapon until later in the game when you got used to things. ME2 -> ME3 meanwhile lets you use any weapon you want, so you can put shotguns on your engineer (or other combination) as early as Mars.

[LibraryOgre]

Did you mean Barrier here? Fortification is the non-biotic one.

Yeah, Barrier.

ME1 -> ME2 was a drastic enough weapons change that I was okay with them deferring the bonus weapon until later in the game when you got used to things. ME2 -> ME3 meanwhile lets you use any weapon you want, so you can put shotguns on your engineer (or other combination) as early as Mars.

I really want to finish ME2 so I can finally play ME3. It came out when I was starting my MLS, so I didn't get it.