Echoing Spell + Spell Perfection: Does this work?

[Abd al-Azrad]

Howdy all,

I'm curious about how these effects interact.

Echoing Spell allows you to re-cast a spell one additional time before it is burned up from memory.


Spell Perfection allows you to add one metamagic feat to your chosen spell for free (in addition to all sorts of nice effects).

Can you use Spell Perfection to tack Echoing Spell onto an echoed version of your chosen spell, basically giving you an unlimited chain of castings? My gut says no, my own reading of these feats also says no, but some of my players seem pretty convinced it works. I have some suspicion they're working from a non-SRD version of one of the effects, which doesn't really help me understand their logic - but if, for instance, Echoing Spell is written differently in the books, it might go a way to explaining why they think this works. I, sadly, do not have the books and rely exclusively on SRD.

I'd like a solid ruling before it comes up in game, or someone decides to make their build around unlimited daily castings of something idiotically powerful below 7th level. Either they'll need to change their plans, or I'll need to radically alter mine to accommodate such possibilities.

[Modigar]

I don't believe it works by RAW, and I certainly wouldn't allow it at any table I was running. My interpretation is that by RAW, every time you used Spell Perfection to add Echoing Spell to the spell, you're increasing it's total modified spell level by 3, and Spell Perfection will not go beyond a total modified spell level of 9.

[Nightraiderx]

No effect that allows you to reprepare or recast a spell can affect the echoed spell.

Pretty sure this part of the description bars the infinite loop concept.

[Barstro]

Let's break your theory down to individual parts.

Echoing allows you to cast a second time. The language even says "If you prepare spells, this second casting does not require you to prepare it in another spell slot. If you spontaneously cast spells, this second casting does not expend another available spell slot." Note the word "second" and the fact that the additional casting doesn't affect spell slots.

So, a Level 1, Standard Action Spell can be cast from a Level 4 Slot, and then cast again some other point during the day. The second casting does not have a spell slot, it is simply a recasting of the earlier spell.

Spell Perfection removes any casting time increase (keeping spells at the original "action"), and keeps the spell at the same level (a level 1 spell does not go up to level 4).

Nothing in Spell Perfection says it does anything useful other than keep a (for this argument) a Level 1, Standard Action Spell modified by Echoing as a Level 1, Standard Action Spell.
So, it changes the above example so that the Level 1, Standard Action Spell gets cast from a Level 1 Slot, then cast again at some other point during the day.

This is one of the rare times where I think the writers actually spent some thought on their statutory language to make sure the description of Echoing is not say the original casting was free and the spellcaster retained the spell in its original slot. As the second casting does not really have a spell level, I suggest that it cannot be affected by any metamagic. But, there is no language in the descriptions to back me up on that.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Thanks for the quick reply. I'm guessing the issue was that one or more of my players were either misreading something from the books, or that the language in the books was ambiguous and this has since been corrected online. Either way, I've now plenty of evidence to counter this interpretation.

[Barstro]

I've now plenty of evidence to counter this interpretation.

It wasn't a horrible interpretation, but the results need to be analyzed to see if it really makes sense.
These feats on a Level 6 spell would allow a Level 11 caster to use that Level 6 spell at will. Summon Monster VI, every round, always. That's two T-Rex, 2d3 Babau, and eight Cure Serious Wounds (2x Lillend), per minute... every minute of the waking day.

A Level 6 Pearl of Power costs 36,000 and would only allow that spell to be cast one more time per day, not 360 times per hour.

I know that spellcasters are the weakest of classes and need all the love and help they can get, but this would be a touch too far.

[Abd al-Azrad]

It wasn't a horrible interpretation, but the results need to be analyzed to see if it really makes sense.
These feats on a Level 6 spell would allow a Level 11 caster to use that Level 6 spell at will. Summon Monster VI, every round, always. That's two T-Rex, 2d3 Babau, and eight Cure Serious Wounds (2x Lillend), per minute... every minute of the waking day.

A Level 6 Pearl of Power costs 36,000 and would only allow that spell to be cast one more time per day, not 360 times per hour.

I know that spellcasters are the weakest of classes and need all the love and help they can get, but this would be a touch too far.

Well, a 15th-level caster. Spell perfection's got a high skill rank prerequisite. And ours is the kind of group where, if we find an awesome overpowered trick that works RAW and can't be easily denied RAI, we'll at least allow a limited version of it.

I think the player in question wanted to use this to create a battery of Intensified Shocking Grasps for his badass Magus, of which he would never run out. It is certainly a powerful option, but for the most part this was just extending the adventuring day from 15 minutes to 8 hours.

[Psyren]

"Benefit: When you cast an echoing spell, it does not disappear entirely from memory, and you can cast it one additional time during that day."

"You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell."

Echoing spell gives you back that same spell. You cannot add echoing to it a second time.