Temictli Tzitziquiltic Amoxtli Nonotzaloc: Ichtacacalaquia

[Fax Celestis]

Oh the things you can do! Oh the places you'll go!

Subvert Oath
Lexicon alteration; Level initiate
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range 50 ft.
Target one creature
Duration one round
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
Base Tzocatl DC 21

Tzozonalonimonetol

This edict twists and contorts the target’s truename, conning the universe into believing the target has violated their personal ethics. For the duration of this edict, the targeted creature is considered to be in violation of any code of conduct it might have (such as a paladin’s code of conduct, the edicts of a cavalier’s order, or a cleric’s code of conduct). Once the duration of this edict ends, the targeted creature is returned to normal, and their oath is restored (unless they committed acts during this edict’s duration that would normally violate their oath). A successful Will save negates this effect.

Emphasis: For each three points you surpass the Tzocatl DC by, increase the duration of this edict by one round and its range by 10 ft.

Cadence: If you beat the Tzocatl DC by at least six, you may subtract six from your Tzocatl check result. If you do so, this edict instead allows the targeted creature to perform actions normally in violation with their code of conduct for the duration of this edict.

Esoterica: Choose an alignment (chaotic, evil, good, lawful, or neutral) that you do not possess. For the purposes of determining the effects of spells and effects that base their effects on your alignment, you count both as your true alignment and as the selected alignment.

Hell. You're going to Hell.

[Psyren]

Wait, you can turn off a cleric's entire class for 5 rounds? As an initiate level effect? And for a moderate increase, you can get paladins to commit murder or torture without penalty?

I'm not so gung-ho about this one.

[PsyBomb]

Wait, you can turn off a cleric's entire class for 5 rounds? As an initiate level effect? And for a moderate increase, you can get paladins to commit murder or torture without penalty?

I'm not so gung-ho about this one.

That's an SOS with style right there... pity that most code-based classes have good Will.

I don't like the code abeyance function, though. Just rankles for some reason, since power gamers will just use it to stack Profane bonuses on paladins and such.

[Fax Celestis]

Wait, you can turn off a cleric's entire class for 5 rounds? As an initiate level effect? And for a moderate increase, you can get paladins to commit murder or torture without penalty?

I'm not so gung-ho about this one.

WHOOPS, duration should be one round. Curse you copypasta! Still, if you think that's too much, I could bump it to a Master (even keeping the new duration). +6 on the check (or DC 27) is basically not an expected (>50%) result until 12th level.

[Psyren]

I know it's early days yet but we should have a full open playtest like Akasha and PoW did. It's hard to gauge the system's overall power and spot trends from these morsels (tasty though they may be.)

[Fax Celestis]

Oh we will. I just want to get a little more done first.

I've only got two grandmaster edicts, for instance.

[Raven777]

Cadence: If you beat the Tzocatl DC by at least six, you may subtract six from your Tzocatl check result. If you do so, this edict instead allows the targeted creature to perform actions normally in violation with their code of conduct for the duration of this edict.

I love you. The world is more beautiful now that this exists.

Philosophical question : does a Paladin asking for that to be cast on him fall afterward because asking to cheat their ethics goes against their ethics?

[Fax Celestis]

The intent is that the paladin (or whatever) has a circumvent method that won't make them fall. As far as the universe is concerned, it never happened. Well it happened, but someone very not the paladin did it.

[Psyren]

I just don't see how that is going to fool a deity/universal power if that paladin commits murder or tortures a child or rapes someone etc. Even if it can, I don't think that it should.

For minor yet nevertheless line-skirting offenses I could see getting the universe to look the other way for a bit. Lying about your identity/alignment, theft, bullying an NPC or casting an evil spell I could maybe agree with, but there are some lines that just should not be possible to cross.

[Extra Anchovies]

I just don't see how that is going to fool a deity/universal power if that paladin commits murder or tortures a child or rapes someone etc. Even if it can, I don't think that it should.

For minor yet nevertheless line-skirting offenses I could see getting the universe to look the other way for a bit. Lying about your identity/alignment, theft, bullying an NPC or casting an evil spell I could maybe agree with, but there are some lines that just should not be possible to cross.

Seconded. The point of a code of conduct is to present a restriction, and when that restriction can be mechanically removed it might as well not exist in the first place. At least, that's my view on the matter.

[Honest Tiefling]

The code should add to a character, not restrain it. I think if your group needs a class to make it feasible, the group views on alignment and codes might need a bit of reworking. Why would a character even agree to circumventing his own faith, their beliefs, the core of why they fight? Might as well have an ability to remove pesky back story and troublesome relatives.

[Anlashok]

The code should add to a character, not restrain it. I think if your group needs a class to make it feasible, the group views on alignment and codes might need a bit of reworking. Why would a character even agree to circumventing his own faith, their beliefs, the core of why they fight? Might as well have an ability to remove pesky back story and troublesome relatives.

You're not thinking it through hard enough, this spell has incredible RP potential.

[T.G. Oskar]

I just don't see how that is going to fool a deity/universal power if that paladin commits murder or tortures a child or rapes someone etc. Even if it can, I don't think that it should.

For minor yet nevertheless line-skirting offenses I could see getting the universe to look the other way for a bit. Lying about your identity/alignment, theft, bullying an NPC or casting an evil spell I could maybe agree with, but there are some lines that just should not be possible to cross.

Then see it in two terms: What You Are In The Dark, and ruining the fun of sadistic DMs.

The first one is a challenge to a Paladin: do any depravity and keep your powers, so as long as you have someone who tells the Universe to ignore your actions. In the end, the power will fail, the individual will commit the action and fall, and all the karmic judgment will fall upon by deluding yourself you could cheat the Universe out of it. I could see a LE Advocate or a Tzocatli-using devil trying to corrupt a Paladin that way. If the Paladin, DESPITE the edict AND being notified accordingly, behaves according to the Code, then chances are the Paladin will rarely provoke its own fall.

Which ties well to part 2: when you fall because of an action, no matter the action. This edict is useful on pulling out of a Kobayashi Maru/Morton's Fork situation: when the best action is to choose the lesser of the two evils, and you have no chance of personally seeking a Third Option, the Advocate ends up providing the Third Option, some flexibility to act while serving the Greater Good. The Universe will never know who did the job, but the Advocate and the Paladin will. Considering the threads speaking of how to specifically make Paladins fall, the ability to have an ally secretly deny the DM the satisfaction of ruining its players is both enlightening and fair: if the DM bans the edict and then seeks to make the Paladin fall, the DM is not looking to let you have fun, especially if you find someone else capable of using the edict against your divinely-empowered ally.

...making that a third benefit of the edict: it lets you root out sadistic DMs.

[Honest Tiefling]

You're not thinking it through hard enough, this spell has incredible RP potential.

I just can't. Seems more like character lobotomy. Maybe if someone forced it on an unwilling target to force them to do something against their will, making them into a sham and a mockery of their beliefs. That's fine, but a willing target?

As for sadistic DMs, my way of rooting them out is to not play with them. If I have to use rules to protect my fun time from my friend, something went horribly wrong here.

[Fax Celestis]

I just can't. Seems more like character lobotomy. Maybe if someone forced it on an unwilling target to force them to do something against their will, making them into a sham and a mockery of their beliefs. That's fine, but a willing target?

As for sadistic DMs, my way of rooting them out is to not play with them. If I have to use rules to protect my fun time from my friend, something went horribly wrong here.

Of note: the "can act outside code" cadence doesn't alter or remove the "treated as violating your code" primary effect. It also doesn't have the Harmless tag on the save or SR lines. You want (or need) to not be restricted fir a little bit? Then you're doing it as a glorified commoner.

[Gemini476]

I just don't see how that is going to fool a deity/universal power if that paladin commits murder or tortures a child or rapes someone etc. Even if it can, I don't think that it should.

For minor yet nevertheless line-skirting offenses I could see getting the universe to look the other way for a bit. Lying about your identity/alignment, theft, bullying an NPC or casting an evil spell I could maybe agree with, but there are some lines that just should not be possible to cross.

If a Paladin does such deeds often enough that they move away from Lawful Good, won't they fall anyway once the utterance ends? It's not an effect that you can just casually use unless you have a personal Forgeborn Advocate speaking it at you 24/7.

I'm alright with this effect, to be honest. Twisting someone's truename would be the perfect disguise against the universe itself, after all.

[Fax Celestis]

I just don't see how that is going to fool a deity/universal power if that paladin commits murder or tortures a child or rapes someone etc. Even if it can, I don't think that it should.

For minor yet nevertheless line-skirting offenses I could see getting the universe to look the other way for a bit. Lying about your identity/alignment, theft, bullying an NPC or casting an evil spell I could maybe agree with, but there are some lines that just should not be possible to cross.

It's not so much looking the other way as it is God, the Universe, and basically anyone who isn't looking directly at you forgetting you exist.

[Honest Tiefling]

The fluff of the effect is fine, just...The narrative. Why would you believe in such a deity if you are willing to pull the wool over that deity's eyes? Why do you have faith in such a being if you think their methods don't work?

[Gemini476]

The fluff of the effect is fine, just...The narrative. Why would you believe in such a deity if you are willing to pull the wool over that deity's eyes? Why do you have faith in such a being if you think their methods don't work?

Those are excellent questions to ask yourself regarding your character's motivation! Add in "why would you want to circumvent your restrictions?" and "what would you do if you could do one thing without consequence?" and you're getting a pretty decent list started.

Personally I see it a bit like the "powderkeg paladin" school of thought - it's not the question of if you're going to fall, it's when and for what purpose. What would make you break your code of conduct? What circumstances could you think of where such a thing would be necessary, or the lesser of two evils?

Subvert Oath offers an out, a way for you to cheat around your code to do those grisly things without actually suffering the consequences for it. It's a bit of the coward's way out, perhaps, but I'm sure that some would choose it nevertheless. Feral orphaned goblin babies and whatnot.


But the main use of the utterance would be to shut down enemy clerics or whatnot anyway, and even then it seems unlikely that you'll get enough of a duration out of the effect that it would be useful for performing any more heinous deeds that require more than, say, six seconds. 50% chance until level 12, was it? So 35% chance until then that you get at least two rounds out of the code-hiding effect.

[Taveena]

It's a... very interesting idea. I presume that alignment restrictions remain in place? Like if a Paladin suddenly jumps off the deep end (but only for the duration of the effect) his powers are gone for good, because that's not part of the Code. (I mean. It is, but it's also a more permanent change and he'll be locked out once the code comes back on.)

[Gemini476]

It's a... very interesting idea. I presume that alignment restrictions remain in place? Like if a Paladin suddenly jumps off the deep end (but only for the duration of the effect) his powers are gone for good, because that's not part of the Code. (I mean. It is, but it's also a more permanent change and he'll be locked out once the code comes back on.)

The effect only blocks your code of conduct from interfering with actions taken during its duration - your alignment is not shielded by the edict. If you do enough non-good or non-lawful actions to turn you away from Lawful Good, that'll still stick around after the effect ends.

He could do an evil act or use poison or lie to someone's face or whatever during the effect as much as he wanted as long as that didn't actually change his alignment, but once it as much as shifts him to Neutral Good he's out of luck after the edict ends and he'll need to find a cleric to cast Atonement on him.

So basically what you said.

[Psyren]

Considering the threads speaking of how to specifically make Paladins fall, the ability to have an ally secretly deny the DM the satisfaction of ruining its players is both enlightening and fair: if the DM bans the edict and then seeks to make the Paladin fall, the DM is not looking to let you have fun, especially if you find someone else capable of using the edict against your divinely-empowered ally.

...making that a third benefit of the edict: it lets you root out sadistic DMs.

This is not nearly the same thing as a DM deliberately trying to make Paladins fall. This is a player who chose to be a Paladin colluding with a {Truenamer} to completely flout/trivialize that decision.

Of note: the "can act outside code" cadence doesn't alter or remove the "treated as violating your code" primary effect. It also doesn't have the Harmless tag on the save or SR lines. You want (or need) to not be restricted fir a little bit? Then you're doing it as a glorified commoner.

Being a Paladin is about so much more than having superpowers. O-Chul dumped Cha and has what looks like 1 smite/day, yet he would never want an ability like this used anywhere near him.

Those are excellent questions to ask yourself regarding your character's motivation!

They're questions that would only need to be asked in the most cynical or nonsensical of settings.

[Fax Celestis]

Being a Paladin is about so much more than having superpowers. O-Chul dumped Cha and has what looks like 1 smite/day, yet he would never want an ability like this used anywhere near him.

And yet Miko would probably have made liberal use of it on her descent. O-Chul is what Paladins aspire to be, but most end up being more like Miko.

[Gemini476]

Note that having the edict spoken on you does not mean that you actually need to perform a CoC-breaking act. It's not mind control. If O-Chul got it spoken on him, he wouldn't break his code of conduct anyway. If Miko got it spoken on her, she might take the opportunity to do something she deems necessary.

Not that the Paladin is necessarily the only class that would possibly be interested in getting the effect on them. Cavaliers and Clerics, for instance.

...Come to think of it, does this do anything to the Vow of X archetypes?

[Taveena]

As a 3.PF player, this sounds hella useful for a VoP character. "Damnit, cancel my vow and gimme your flying boots."

[Admiral Squish]

Firstly, this is awesome and I'm so annoyed I didn't learn it was a thing before. Wouldn't this be better placed in homebrew?
Second, I love the Nahuatl theme. I will admit, as one who's been wrestling with the language for many months now, I'll agree it's one of those languages that's incredibly had to pronounce. That and Inuktitut are right up there on my list. I still can't do the 'tl' properly.
Thirdly, damn you for tempting me to do something similar in my setting, even if I know for a fact it's gonna be too much work.

I also wanted to mention, in Mexica poetry, there's a practice whose name escapes me at the moment. It's similar to synecdoche, where you use part of a thing to refer to the whole of a thing, but in aztec poetry, they would use two parts, and often they heavily relied on metaphor to pick the words, so a soldier could be referred to as 'muscle and sword', or a wise leader could be referred to as 'mind and voice', or a squadron of troops as 'jaguars and eagles'. I'm not exactly sure if that would be able to help you in your work, but I think it's got some potential.

[shameless plug]
Oh, and to all those people who were mentioning that Mesoamerican cultures don't really have much/any representation in D&D, I would direct your attention to my world-building project, Crossroads: the New World, a PF setting based on alt-history North America where, among many other changes, the Mexica killed Cortez and extracted the techniques of ironworking and making gunpowder from his captured men.
[/shameless plug]

[Psyren]

And yet Miko would probably have made liberal use of it on her descent. O-Chul is what Paladins aspire to be, but most end up being more like Miko.

The fact that this ability is aimed at Miko-Paladins is not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Note that having the edict spoken on you does not mean that you actually need to perform a CoC-breaking act. It's not mind control. If O-Chul got it spoken on him, he wouldn't break his code of conduct anyway. If Miko got it spoken on her, she might take the opportunity to do something she deems necessary.

That's my point - it's only useful for paladins who have no business being paladins. For the good ones, at best it is a debuff while they sit still and wait for their powers to come back.

I personally feel that connections like this - cleric/paladin and their deity/power - are too fundamental to be suspended by mortal magic. {Truenamers} are hackers, yes, but not gods.

Firstly, this is awesome and I'm so annoyed I didn't learn it was a thing before. Wouldn't this be better placed in homebrew?

I'd say this is more of a preview for upcoming 3rd-party material (similar to the other DSP playtests we've had here) than brainstorming something that doesn't exist yet.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, what about a cavalier stepping outside the bounds of his oath? Or a druid that needs to wear plate for a royal guard disguise?

[Psyren]

Okay, what about a cavalier stepping outside the bounds of his oath? Or a druid that needs to wear plate for a royal guard disguise?

I'm fine with both of those. If there were some kind of "heinous acts" clause for the DM to invoke I would be fine with this.

I would even be fine with a cadence that lets a cleric cast off-alignment spells (probably from an item?), channel the wrong kind of energy, or lets a druid wear metal and still wildshape. (i.e. one that doesn't remove their Su abilities completely.) But some things should literally be held sacred.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm fine with both of those. If there were some kind of "heinous acts" clause for the DM to invoke I would be fine with this.

I would even be fine with a cadence that lets a cleric cast off-alignment spells (probably from an item?), channel the wrong kind of energy, or lets a druid wear metal and still wildshape. (i.e. one that doesn't remove their Su abilities completely.) But some things should literally be held sacred.

So if it said something more like:

Cadence: If you beat the Tzocatl DC by at least six, you may subtract six from your Tzocatl check result. If you do so, this edict instead allows the targeted creature to perform actions normally in violation with their code of conduct for the duration of this edict. Particularly egregious or heinous acts (typically those that result in alignment shift) cause the targeted creature to be in violation of their code of conduct when this edict ends, and they suffer any resultant effects as normal.

...you'd be better with it?

Or are you more looking for something like:

Cadence: If you beat the Tzocatl DC by at least six, you may subtract six from your Tzocatl check result. If you do so, this edict causes the targeted creature's alignment-based features to act as if they had the alignment directly opposed to their own: a good cleric would channel negative energy, for instance.

Obviously this second one is vague and needs clarification, but the general idea is there.