General Anime/Manga Discussion 13.5: Recap Episode

[Terraoblivion]

Sorry

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Last Order appears for like 2 seconds in all of Railgun.

He's not supposed to be an anti-hero in his first appearance, just a villain. They just put a bit of not quite sympathetic stuff into Railgun to make his latter anti-hero characterisation make more sense. All it really does is make him kind of pathetic though.

I know, but I also know they tried to make him an antihero later which just doesn't work. Concentration camp wardens are easier to really make sympathetic than this guy, they had an entire ideological system working for them and didn't generally do the killing personally. If he wants to seek redemption he needs to find some other thing to do than continue fighting, even if it might be more work for him. Something more constructive and positive.

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And I was talking obviously talking about MISAKA, who is a singular character at least throughout the timeframe of the show. It appears that they lost the ability to link up memories after the project was cancelled and will probably develop more distinct identities, but they haven't yet.

[Sith_Happens]

Also, Accelerator is quite uncreative, at least in his Railgun appearances. He might be more clever in his own spinoff.

According to TV Tropes it has a part where you find out that he subconsciously uses his power to tune out annoying sounds, and is having difficulties in getting "people screaming for help" off of the "annoying sounds" list.

[Macros]

Well, to be fair, with his set of powers, he probably never felt the need to be too inventive.

But I must say I'm with TerraOblivion on Accelerator's issue. I mean, come on! The first thing I saw him do was chewing off the finger of someone he just killed! I don't care what excuse he had at the time, that's simply sociopathy of the highest caliber (and frankly, his given reasons were not very good, and that's putting it lightly). No, I really found his "change of heart" rather forced and heavy-handed.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Accelerator is still pretty much a sociopath as a 'good guy'.

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The last 'heroic' thing he does in the Index anime (second season) is brutally murder a bunch of people because their boss made him look like a chump. They're bad people and he's "sticking it to the man" but he's not a nice guy.

Concentration camp wardens are easier to really make sympathetic than this guy, they had an entire ideological system working for them and didn't generally do the killing personally.

They brutalised people on a daily basis, whether or not they went near gas chambers is irrelevant to how evil they acted. Most camps didn't even have killing people in mind, if more people are dying from poor living standards and over-work then keeping them in that environment isn't that different to directly killing them.

Accelerator might not have an ideology but he does also have a world view where the clones aren't human. Its pretty much just him making excuses since he's probably noticed otherwise subconsciously and he treats humans terribly anyway. It does allow him to adjust his thinking latter, which again is him lying to himself to make himself feel more logically consistent but is still reasonable character growth.

The other big difference is that Concentration Camp workers are adults.

I'm not trying to convince you to like him as a character, but I think most of his fans like him because they find him interesting, not because they find him sympathetic. I don't think the way different people respond to characters differently is really something you can debate in the normal 'attempting to convince people' sense.

Personally I find Saber to be an even more boring terrible character than Shirou and find the idea of keeping her and removing Shirou to be pointless.

If he wants to seek redemption he needs to find some other thing to do than continue fighting, even if it might be more work for him. Something more constructive and positive.

He has a selfish limited world view, so his attempts at redemption are limited only to correcting his own personal mistakes, not actually balancing out the evil he did with good. They fact that he's kind of terrible at trying to redeem himself is an actual part of his characterisation.

Turning him into an actual good guy not just a sociopathic anti-hero would be even worse writing.

One reason why some people may enjoy him is that he's sort of a Clown. We laugh at Clowns because they break social norms of what's acceptable. Some characters are entertaining because we know they're bad people.

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And I was talking obviously talking about MISAKA, who is a singular character at least throughout the timeframe of the show. It appears that they lost the ability to link up memories after the project was cancelled and will probably develop more distinct identities, but they haven't yet.

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There are two MISAKA who get a focus in Railgun. 10032 (first one Touma meets who survives and shows up a few more times in Index) and 9982 (first one who meets Misaka in Railgun and dies). These are treated as completely separate characters by most fans. If they're one character in multiple bodies, then Accelerator clearly didn't kill them, which goes against what you've already said about Accelerator.

They still have their mental link, that's made pretty clear in Index. Only one of the original clones (19090) isn't linked to the others and has a more distinct personality. Since their powers work the same way Level Upper works they'd be level 1 or 0 if the network went away.

[Mx.Silver]

Well, that's the first series of FMA wrapped-up again - which, in the interests of easing discussion with less confusion, I'm considering rebranding it FMA: Motherhood.
It still holds-up very well, enough that it could still probably be called a classic. It's certainly still one of Bones' high-points. Has it's flaws (don't try to think too much about the geography of the setting), but then so does pretty much everything. Even the great works (some might say especially the great works).

Spoiler: on the ending

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And just as it was the first time I saw it, my biggest problem with the ending is that Wrath doesn't get any real screen time in the epilogue segment. Because it would have been a final knot in his and Izumi's stories, as well as that of the homonculi in general.

Other than that I don't have any real complaints about it (nitpicks about Envy's actual appearance and Hoheneim's decay just sort of stopping notwithstanding). Yes, the earth stuff is a bit superfluous/self-indulgent, but fits the internal logic the series is going for well-enough that it doesn't really matter. If nothing else, it does at least get some originality points for not just making the other side of The Gate some variety of afterlife.

In other, less positive, news I also saw the first few epsiodes of Code Geass. I was not all surprised to find out afterwards that the series was lco-created by the same chap who was largely responsible for Valvrave. Because while nothing in was quite at that level of ridiculous, it's definitely well along that road. Lelouch's 'tactical genius' in the first battle starts at "Just as planned" levels, and I get the distinct impression things are only going to get worse from here on out.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, that's the first series of FMA wrapped-up again - which, in the interests of easing discussion with less confusion, I'm considering rebranding it FMA: Motherhood.
It still holds-up very well, enough that it could still probably be called a classic. It's certainly still one of Bones' high-points. Has it's flaws (don't try to think too much about the geography of the setting), but then so does pretty much everything. Even the great works (some might say especially the great works).

Spoiler: on the ending

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And just as it was the first time I saw it, my biggest problem with the ending is that Wrath doesn't get any real screen time in the epilogue segment. Because it would have been a final knot in his and Izumi's stories, as well as that of the homonculi in general.

Other than that I don't have any real complaints about it (nitpicks about Envy's actual appearance and Hoheneim's decay just sort of stopping notwithstanding). Yes, the earth stuff is a bit superfluous/self-indulgent, but fits the internal logic the series is going for well-enough that it doesn't really matter. If nothing else, it does at least get some originality points for not just making the other side of The Gate some variety of afterlife.

You should watch the follow-up movie, Conquerer of Shamballa. I'm not quite sure if it's actually good, but I liked it.

[Hazzardevil]

I liked it.
I also liked the other film, "Sacred Star of Milos" which could fit into either from memory and goes part way through the series.

[Sith_Happens]

In other, less positive, news I also saw the first few epsiodes of Code Geass. I was not all surprised to find out afterwards that the series was lco-created by the same chap who was largely responsible for Valvrave. Because while nothing in was quite at that level of ridiculous, it's definitely well along that road. Lelouch's 'tactical genius' in the first battle starts at "Just as planned" levels, and I get the distinct impression things are only going to get worse from here on out.

Lelouch's planning/commanding acumen is actually one of the few things that doesn't get more and more ridiculous as the series progresses, with the notable exception of the absurd number of random people that it periodically turns out he's somehow had enough time off-screen to walk around geass-ing.

[Duck999]

Lelouch's planning/commanding acumen is actually one of the few things that doesn't get more and more ridiculous as the series progresses, with the notable exception of the absurd number of random people that it periodically turns out he's somehow had enough time off-screen to walk around geass-ing.

It's not that he had enough time off screen. He just so happens to avoid the cameras while he's doing it. The show would not want us knowing his plans ahead of time. That would be wrong.

[Mx.Silver]

Lelouch's planning/commanding acumen is actually one of the few things that doesn't get more and more ridiculous as the series progresses, with the notable exception of the absurd number of random people that it periodically turns out he's somehow had enough time off-screen to walk around geass-ing.

I can actually believe that. After all, in episode two the success of his plans hinges on his prediction of the arrival (to the middle of an active combat zone) of an unarmoured, unescorted, unguarded train carrying a shipment of unpiloted, unsecured yet still completely battle-ready mechs which have all conveniently had their IFFs deactivated. So given that it starts out at 'universe bending over backwards to lend a hand' levels, there probably isn't all that much further it can go

[tensai_oni]

You should watch the follow-up movie, Conquerer of Shamballa. I'm not quite sure if it's actually good, but I liked it.

I disagree. It had some neat moments but overall it was pretty bad. The pacing was off, characterisation was off, and it introduced some ideas and then didn't do them justice at all.

Completely skippable. It gives a kind of resolution to the original anime version of FMA, but that resolution is underwhelming.

[Hazzardevil]

I can actually believe that. After all, in episode two the success of his plans hinges on his prediction of the arrival (to the middle of an active combat zone) of an unarmoured, unescorted, unguarded train carrying a shipment of unpiloted, unsecured yet still completely battle-ready mechs which have all conveniently had their IFFs deactivated. So given that it starts out at 'universe bending over backwards to lend a hand' levels, there probably isn't all that much further it can go

I'm quite happy with how they did the plans in the first series, but the second series gets worse, with giant weapons replacing clever plans.

[DoctorFaust]

Aaaand there's the darkness I was expecting from YuYuYu.

[Terraoblivion]

Yes, but with a somewhat unusual angle. Also, the fact that there are four episodes left almost certainly means that there are some further twists of some kind coming up, because without further revelations or a change in attitude due to them or something, filling out four more episodes with something interesting seems like it'd be hard.

[Sith_Happens]

I can actually believe that. After all, in episode two the success of his plans hinges on his prediction of the arrival (to the middle of an active combat zone) of an unarmoured, unescorted, unguarded train carrying a shipment of unpiloted, unsecured yet still completely battle-ready mechs which have all conveniently had their IFFs deactivated.

I distinctly remember the train being escorted by a single Sutherland, which is something I guess (pretty sure they weren't expecting the enemy to have an ace pilot). As for knowing it was coming, Lelouch probably did see the cargo on his map and the resistance fighters just turned off the mechs' IFFs upon stealing them.

So given that it starts out at 'universe bending over backwards to lend a hand' levels, there probably isn't all that much further it can go

Funny thing is, the universe actually spends most of its time bending over backwards to screw him over. Starting with "Lloyd gets cleared to bring Suzaku to every battle ever because reasons" and escalating from there.

[Terraoblivion]

Universe bends over backwards to make him and Suzaku the two most important people on the planet. Which means that Lelouch has to keep making brilliant plans and winning and Suzaku keeps being able to foil them.

Also, episode 8 of Amagi Brilliant Park was amazing. Quite possibly the funniest episode of anime I've watched since the rugby episode of Fumoffu!, and that's a very high bar to even get close to. It also continues to remind us that theme park mascots are menaces to society and we shouldn't forgot it.

[DoctorFaust]

Yes, but with a somewhat unusual angle. Also, the fact that there are four episodes left almost certainly means that there are some further twists of some kind coming up, because without further revelations or a change in attitude due to them or something, filling out four more episodes with something interesting seems like it'd be hard.

I imagine that the last four episodes will probably be dealing with the fallout of what Yuki and Togo learned this episode. And who knows, maybe they'll pull a rage against the heavens type thing.

Oh, and I found out that there's a prequel light novel that's currently being published, and apparently, it's even goddamn darker. Not entirely sure if this is within the purview of this thread, but I feel it's relevant enough to be discussed.

Spoiler: Washio Sumi Is a Hero

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Turns out that Togo might not actually be named Togo. She was Washio Sumi, and she used to be a magical girl like you, until she took a mankai to the knee. Both knees, in fact. And the brain.

[Mx.Silver]

Re:Conqueror of Shambalambarambadingdong, I don't have a particularly strong desire to watch it, although I'll probably end-up doing so anyway before Brotherhood. The other film I don't care about, as I generally don't bother with midquels.

I distinctly remember the train being escorted by a single Sutherland, which is something I guess (pretty sure they weren't expecting the enemy to have an ace pilot). As for knowing it was coming, Lelouch probably did see the cargo on his map and the resistance fighters just turned off the mechs' IFFs upon stealing them.

The only Sutherlands there are the ones chasing Kallen, who's only there because that's where Lelouch told her to go. In regards to how Lelouch knew they were there, I'm not entirely sure how he's supposed to have seen what was inside it. The most we get is that he noticed it would be difficult for the Britanians to bring in reinforcements, which I have difficulty believing is enough simply because that train has no business being there at all in anything resembling a sane universe. Leaving aside the lunacy of sending a bunch of unguarded, unsecured military hardware onto the opposite side of a battlefield from the field HQ, there's no reason to bring in unpiloted mechs when it's established that they're already very short on pilots.

In regards to the IFF thing, the subs on the UK Bluray version have one of the rebels commenting that the fact that the mechs are sans IFFs makes the situation feel like a trap.

[Eldariel]

Y'know, since they're animating stuff outside the on-screen events on the VN, you know what might happen in this new FSN anime?

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Assassin vs. Berserker! That has to be one of the biggest off-screen moments of awesome.

[Pronounceable]

Y'know, since they're animating stuff outside the on-screen events on the VN, you know what might happen in this new FSN anime?

I doubt that's gonna happen but it'd be so hypey if it did. I suspect what we're gonna see are the little snippets from opening (Lancer vs Berserker, Caster dogfight, Saber and bone army). Then again, maybe they're messing with us and none of that will happen.

The upcoming episode is certainly getting at least one new scene though, preview had a new line not from anywhere in VN.

[HMS Invincible]

FSN Ep 8, I forget, which servant killed Rider, was it caster class or Archer class? I never was quite sure in the visual novel.

[Pronounceable]

^^Welp. They did stick with original fridging. There was a new scene and it made no sense whatsoever. And it's probably partly crappy subtitles fault but the mystery aspect was far too forced. This is what happens when you don't adapt. Now I'm convinced they're gonna play an even dumber scene later on straight too.

FSN Ep 8

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It's not a servant.

No wait, there's 2 new things and the second one is utterly ridiculous.

Spoiler: big HF spoilage

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There's no way in hell Rider would activate the field if it was gonna harm Sakura. Shinji would've had to blow his solitary command seal and Rider would be freed of its binding immediately.

[HMS Invincible]

Spoiler: ep 8

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I call BS, and want to know what you think happened. Because what you're claiming doesn't make sense, maybe they mixed some HF into this route?

^^Welp. They did stick with original fridging. There was a new scene and it made no sense whatsoever. And it's probably partly crappy subtitles fault but the mystery aspect was far too forced. This is what happens when you don't adapt. Now I'm convinced they're gonna play an even dumber scene later on straight too.

Spoiler

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It's not a servant.

No wait, there's 2 new things and the second one is utterly ridiculous.

Spoiler: big HF spoilage

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There's no way in hell Rider would activate the field if it was gonna harm Sakura. Shinji would've had to blow his solitary command seal and Rider would be freed of its binding immediately.

[Pronounceable]

ep 8 spins me right round

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Nope, they're doing it straight. It wasn't a servant in VN either, there's an even worse scene coming up in like 2 episodes where the culprit is revealed by doing something even more ludicrous. You should remember that from VN as the dumbest scene ever.

...
I like the bloody eye though. And the warp in. There was good visuals.

[HMS Invincible]

Ok, I checked again, you're right. It's incredibly stupid.

[DoctorFaust]

I actually thought that episode was pretty good. Got to see the whole rainbow of tsundereness, even if Rin hasn't shown much character besides; got to see Shinji enough for me to remember why I hate him and want to punch the bitch out of him; and we got to see Ufotable try to animate the SHAFT head tilt. Not a whole lot that I would've changed in this episode, besides the first-person murderer scene and pacing of Saber's fight.

Also, I finally got far enough into Railgun for Accelerator to show up, and I can see my opinion of him going one of two ways. Either I'm going to end up liking him if he's written well, like with Ladd, or I'm going to end up hating his guts if he isn't. I'm genuinely hoping for the former.

[Eldariel]

Y'know, in spite of UBW being my favorite route I seem to have censored this whole scene from my mind entirely. Well, I remember the golems and Shirou's demeanor and Archer coming late but that's about it.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Wut the wut just happened in UBW??? I...was not expecting things to take that turn.

(Saber got a pretty sick minion-fighting scene though.)

[Terraoblivion]

Nasu's writing and ability to plot or keep his own ideas straight asserted itself. Producing a very nicely directed scene that makes no goddamn sense and makes several characters come out looking both OOC and generally pretty badly. Really, it was an utterly terrible, extremely stupid scene that I've heard several people independently confirm isn't substantially altered from the VN. But even if I hadn't, I would have expected it to be since I've had a distinct impression of both sense and competence from the director and scriptwriter and this was lacking in either of those qualities.

[Nerd-o-rama]

So I don't have a Crunchyroll membership and don't quite remember from the VN, but if memory serves, we're complaining about

Spoiler: Spoilers past the point of the anime

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Rider getting killed by Kuzuki somehow, right? Did I remember that happening correctly?

With a side order of the anime adding flourishes that seem OOC for Rider, right?

Neither of those is the least likely thing that happens on this route, although it is probably the most anticlimactic Servant death.