New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 26 of 26
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Crusader

    The idea behind this was to make a Holy Version of the Warlock using the same Divine Patron , Pact Boons and Pact Magic Features.

    I used the Archangels from Diablo is my Patrons simply because I've been working on a Diablo Campaign lately.

    A couple design concepts I wanted to keep in mind while creating this class are as follows:

    • A sword and Shield Fighting Style
    • A versatile character with Tank, DPS and Healer Sub Classes
    • I did not want to overshadow the Paladin or Warlock
    • Similar Melee Abilities as a pact blade warlock and increased defense to compensate for loss of extreme, damage and range through Eldritch Blast



    The biggest concern people give me is that all sub classes can be good with melee by selecting the right Blessings. This is by design. Warlocks use Eldritch blast, which was designed different from the other cantrips in order to allow warlocks to do competitive sustained damage - unlike the other casters, eldritch blast is supposed to be their main source of damage. Crusaders lose Eldritch blast and in fact have no cantrips, and are designed to have melee weapons be there main source of damage. Just like all Warlocks can improve their Eldritch Blast, so can all Crusaders improve there melee attacks

    I am mostly happy with the Invocations (Blessings) I really would love some ideas with these and would to atleast add 1 more unique blessing per aspect.

    Let me know what you think, I'd appreciate constructive criticism and any suggestions I'd hope you first refer to my design concepts and keep those in mind.

    Thanks everyone.

    Change Log

    v1.3
    Change all the things!
    Last edited by Ramshack; 2014-10-24 at 11:27 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Pramxnim's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Burnaby, BC
    Gender
    Male

    Thumbs down Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    You said you wanted constructive criticism, so don't be upset when I state my honest opinion: Your class is overpowered as all hell (or heaven, in this case).

    Ask yourself why you would ever play a Warlock over this class, and I bet you couldn't come up with an answer. You've added so much stuff to the class that takes it closer in power level to what a gestalt character might look like, and the rules for creating them aren't even released yet (as of this writing). Let's take a look at the extra features this class gets over the Warlock:

    • Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: The only full caster class to get access to these without multiclassing is the Cleric. You even gave them a d10 hit dice. For ALL levels of the class. This means the Crusader is as tough as all melee classes, and as powerful a spellcaster as a Warlock. Too much power at no cost.
    • Fighting Style: More free stuff that the Warlock doesn't get.
    • Extra Attack: This is the big one. A normal Warlock needs an invocation to get this. Even then, he will have a lower AC because he can't just focus on STR and wear heavy armor like the Crusader can. Full spellcasters don't get Extra Attack without some cost (Bards give up a subclass for the same ability and gets it a full level late).
    • War Magic: This is a level 18 Fighter ability, obtained at level 7. The Warlock doesn't get this. No classes get this ability. It's completely out of line with other abilities gained at the same level.


    What does a Warlock get that a Crusader doesn't? Cantrips, or more specifically, Eldritch Blast. They have to invest an Invocation for that damage to be competitive, and even then, they get overshadowed by the Crusader simply taking one Blessing at level 11 (Punish the Wicked). They get behind even more if the Crusader takes another Blessing (Versatile Strike). Warlocks sacrifice a lot to get the ability to be competent in melee with his Pact Weapon. The Crusader doesn't have to try, he gets to be better than the Warlock with minimal effort.

    The above should be more than enough reason to seriously rethink your image of the class and modify it to better fit into 5e's power curve. Your Blessings and Patron features are also out of whack. Let me list a few offenders

    • Can't Escape Justice: This is better than the Sentinel feat because it works against teleportations, and by RAW, even forced movement. Nothing else grants an opportunity attack on forced movement. This ability being better than a feat also means it's better than the corresponding Fighter level 6 ability. It's out of line with the rest of 5e.
    • Justice is Blind: Truesight is a 6th level spell. No one else can learn it at level 10. Plus you can cast it again every short rest? No spell at 6th level or above refreshes on a short rest.
    • Judgment: 10d10 damage is in line with other Pact Boon abilities at this level. The Paralyzed condition without a save is not. The Fiend's ability banishes the enemy, removing them from combat but keeping them safe from harm for 1 round. This ability sets up the enemy to die to a slew of auto-crits from you and your party.
    • Heedless: Free temporary hp every fight that grant you advantage on every attack? This is much better than the Fiend's corresponding ability. Easy advantage is also really powerful at all levels of play. With your high AC (19 AC at level 1 is possible) it's also much harder to remove the temp hp, pretty much letting you have advantage against foes at little cost.
    • Counter-Strike: This is a level 14 Barbarian Path ability, granted at level 6. Way above the curve. You also don't specify what exactly you mean by "struck" and "counter-strike". Can the counter-strike be a spell? It very well could be with this class.
    • Never Miss: This is part of the Rogue's capstone class feature, granted at level 10. It looks like you just cut out the noncombat portion and left the meat of the ability in, without any adjustments at all. That's just lazy design, with little regard for balancing.
    • Spirit of Solarian: What action is it to activate this ability? Is it just for free? Also the amount of buffs you get from this ability could be compared to the Paladin's capstone features. So much for not overshadowing them. The Crusader gets a comparable ability 6 levels earlier than them, access to 9th level spells, Invocations and the ability to dip 2 levels to get all the Smite they need (since this class' spell list isn't that impressive)
    • Reliable Ally: Easy advantage is really, really strong. This is almost no cost, and can be gotten at level 1. Much too strong for the level.
    • Spell Block: 1/short rest completely counterspell something that only targets you using no actions whatsoever? Hi there Finger of Death bye Finger of Death. This blocks everything from the lowliest of Charm Persons to the deadliest Power Word Kill. What's better? No real resource cost, and recharges on short rests. This is comparable to a capstone ability (could be better because it requires no action)
    • Divine Intervention: The listed action is a reaction, but a reaction to what? There is no condition that triggers this, and the ability is very strong. Immunity to spell effects is comparable to one of the uses for Wish, and Wish only blocks ONE spell or magical effect (albeit for a much longer period). If I assume correctly and your intent was to let the Crusader use this in response to a harmful effect, it's an even better version of Spell Block, and that ability was broken.
    • Armor of Light: Resistance to mundane abilities at low cost in a low level game is very strong. You're basically a raging barbarian all day every day until you find better uses for your bonus action (of which there are many with this class if you go the Angel of Hope route, but other routes can still find good use for this ability)
    • Punish the Wicked: It's the Warlock's Lifedrinker ability, obtained one level earlier, and applies to ALL weapon attacks, not just those granted by the Pact Weapon. There is no restriction of Pact Boons, so you could pick one of the other two really strong Boons (The Portent ability is very strong, and so is getting 3 cantrips when the class normally gets none). Crusader is also more poised to use this ability, since they have proficiency with heavy armor and can dump Dex to the ground, allowing them to use a weapon with a higher damage die to get even MORE damage while still maintaining a high AC.
    • Repelling Strike: No save push or prone is stronger than the Shield Master feat, which only allows you a shove attempt (but doesn't guarantee success).
    • Versatile Strike: This brings the Crusader up to Great Weapon Fighting Fighter level dps (even better if you also have Punish the Wicked). 1d10+2 is better than 1d12 rerolling 1s and 2s, and the Paladin gets to add a potential 1d10+12 damage to each of his attacks before magic damage.


    If you found some abilities underwhelming, it is likely because you were comparing them with most of the abilities this class gets, which all happen to be overpowered in relation to other available options. If you don't want to read through all this criticism, I have a tl;dr at the bottom.

    TL;DR: The class is too strong. Can fight AND cast spells and does each better than a normal class would. Abilities are wildly inappropriate for their levels and are often too strong for 5e. Pls nerf.
    My current homebrews

    The gods play with dice and parchment!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Hey man I appreciate the constructive criticism.

    I'll rework some of the abilities, but I didn't think some were as strong as you pointed out.

    The warlock can do 1d10+cha 4 times up to 300 feet away with 10 foot knock back per round. I didn't think allowing the Crusader to do 1d10 +wis +str x2 a round when in melee was that out of line and had to use a bonus action to to get 1/4 the knock back effect.

    I'll respond to each other critique in a moment but in terms of damage potential the warlock still out classes the Crusader significantly.
    Last edited by Ramshack; 2014-10-22 at 08:20 AM.
    My Homebrew:

    5e Crusader

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    Crusader

    The idea behind this was to make a Holy Version of the Warlock using the same Divine Patron , Pact Boons and Pact Magic Features.

    I used the Archangels from Diablo is my Patrons simply because I've been working on a Diablo Campaign lately.

    A couple design concepts I wanted to keep in mind while creating this class are as follows:

    • A sword and Shield Fighting Style
    • A versatile character with Tank, DPS and Control Options.
    • Three unique and flavorful Arche Types
    • I did not want to duplicate the Paladin
    • I did not want to overshadow the Paladin
    • Wanted to favor melee over spells



    I know the Invocations (Blessings) need the most work. I really would love some great ideas on these. Spell list could also use some consolidation.

    My initial thoughts are I'm happy with the class, I currently think it's pretty balanced, some features may be a little under whelming.

    Let me know what you think, I'd appreciate constructive criticism and any suggestions I'd hope you first refer to my design concepts and keep those in mind.

    Thanks everyone.
    I agree with Pramxnim, this overshadows so many in battle with offensive, defensive, and control options it really needs to be cut down.
    1. The 5e Paladin shouldn't be your point of balance here. While other mundanes are still competitive its ability to deliver heavy and save-suck type hits are immense. Additionally many of its spells and oaths bring in a lot of defense.
    2. While I believe the Warlock has a bit of a clunky design and a bit of a haphazard treatment with invocations it at least has a few good things to keep it from being the all-character. One is that its Pact Boons are strictly tied with certain invocations. This means that a Pact of the Tome couldn't possibly be a melee gish because its specialty is utility casting allowing it to use any spell that is a ritual and the Extra Attack as well as Charisma bonus damage was strictly tied with the Pact of the Blade. Yours has no such restrictions with any Archetype or Aspect can be used in whatever way and you will still be a melee, defense, and control monster.
    3. If you are going to keep the Warlock design and melee base you might have to consider not having 6-9 spells and stagger the spell levels out while ressurrecting the more powerful spells in your Angels. This would also entail that you would move the archetypes to later levels.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pramxnim View Post
    You said you wanted constructive criticism, so don't be upset when I state my honest opinion: Your class is overpowered as all hell (or heaven, in this case).

    Ask yourself why you would ever play a Warlock over this class, and I bet you couldn't come up with an answer. You've added so much stuff to the class that takes it closer in power level to what a gestalt character might look like, and the rules for creating them aren't even released yet (as of this writing). Let's take a look at the extra features this class gets over the Warlock:
    The warlock is considered the best ranged blaster in the game. able to to do essentially 4d10+20 a round with 40' Knock Back from 300+ feet away. All because of a single Cantrip Eldrichtblast which is missing from this class. I've even banned it so the Book of Light Feature can't grant a cantrip from the Warlock list. Additionally the Warlock has better overall casting. They have a custom spell list of their own unique spells. While this class has a nerfed list of Cleric Spells.
    • Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: The only full caster class to get access to these without multiclassing is the Cleric. You even gave them a d10 hit dice. For ALL levels of the class. This means the Crusader is as tough as all melee classes, and as powerful a spellcaster as a Warlock. Too much power at no cost.
    • Fighting Style: More free stuff that the Warlock doesn't get.
    • Extra Attack: This is the big one. A normal Warlock needs an invocation to get this. Even then, he will have a lower AC because he can't just focus on STR and wear heavy armor like the
      Crusader can. Full spellcasters don't get Extra Attack without some cost (Bards give up a subclass for the same ability and gets it a full level late).
    This is basically making up for the lack of being the single best ranged damage class in the game. Without the extreme range (300+ feet), damage (4d10 +20) and utility (10' knock back per hit) of Eldricht Blast and making the Crusader go into melee I thought this would balance out. By removing the Cantrip section of the Spell Casting Ability and more importantly the removal of Eldricht Blast I added these. So a net loss of 4 Cantrips, and Eldritch Blast essentially what is an attack option that scales to 4 attacks by level 20. I've added a Second Melee attack, A Fighting Style to replace the Cantrips and Heavy armor to compensate for the range.
    • War Magic: This is a level 18 Fighter ability, obtained at level 7. The Warlock doesn't get this. No classes get this ability. It's completely out of line with other abilities gained at the same level.
    You're absolutely right too strong, i'll remove it.

    What does a Warlock get that a Crusader doesn't? Cantrips, or more specifically, Eldritch Blast. They have to invest an Invocation for that damage to be competitive, and even then, they get overshadowed by the Crusader simply taking one Blessing at level 11 (Punish the Wicked). They get behind even more if the Crusader takes another Blessing (Versatile Strike). Warlocks sacrifice a lot to get the ability to be competent in melee with his Pact Weapon. The Crusader doesn't have to try, he gets to be better than the Warlock with minimal effort.

    The above should be more than enough reason to seriously rethink your image of the class and modify it to better fit into 5e's power curve. Your Blessings and Patron features are also out of whack. Let me list a few offenders
    The Crusader still has to invest blessings/invocations to make their weapon attack to be competitive. This isn't a warlock direct clone, i'm changing the warlock base from a range blaster to a melee fighter. The crusader has to invest just as many invocations to be as good as melee as the warlock can, only the crusader will never be as good at range as the warlock is. You can use your own argument against you and say the Warlock doens't even have to try to be way better at ranged than the crusader, while the crusader still has to invest invocations to be as good as the Warlock can be in melee.

    [*]Can't Escape Justice: This is better than the Sentinel feat because it works against teleportations, and by RAW, even forced movement. Nothing else grants an opportunity attack on forced movement. This ability being better than a feat also means it's better than the corresponding Fighter level 6 ability. It's out of line with the rest of 5e.
    I said I was unhappy with this too, i'll revisit.

    [*]Justice is Blind: Truesight is a 6th level spell. No one else can learn it at level 10. Plus you can cast it again every short rest? No spell at 6th level or above refreshes on a short rest.
    I'll revisit this too
    [*]Judgment: 10d10 damage is in line with other Pact Boon abilities at this level. The Paralyzed condition without a save is not. The Fiend's ability banishes the enemy, removing them from combat but keeping them safe from harm for 1 round. This ability sets up the enemy to die to a slew of auto-crits from you and your party.
    I'll change this to be an exact Hurl Through Hell duplicate, so the target is off the battlefield for a turn
    [*]Heedless: Free temporary hp every fight that grant you advantage on every attack? This is much better than the Fiend's corresponding ability. Easy advantage is also really powerful at all levels of play. With your high AC (19 AC at level 1 is possible) it's also much harder to remove the temp hp, pretty much letting you have advantage against foes at little cost.
    The idea behind advantage was that the Pact of the Fiend can gain Temp HP multiple times an encounter, so I wanted to do something to set the on initiative apart. I can switch this to be an exact duplicate of the warlock ability. Though to be fair advantage is pretty common, Barbarians can get it every attack at level 2, and give it to all adjacent allies for free with wolf totem at level 3.

    [*]Counter-Strike: This is a level 14 Barbarian Path ability, granted at level 6. Way above the curve. You also don't specify what exactly you mean by "struck" and "counter-strike". Can the counter-strike be a spell? It very well could be with this class.
    Absolutely right I forgot this was a level 14 barbarian ability it will be changed.
    [*]Never Miss: This is part of the Rogue's capstone class feature, granted at level 10. It looks like you just cut out the noncombat portion and left the meat of the ability in, without any adjustments at all. That's just lazy design, with little regard for balancing.
    I'll look into this further

    [*]Spirit of Solarian: What action is it to activate this ability? Is it just for free? Also the amount of buffs you get from this ability could be compared to the Paladin's capstone features. So much for not overshadowing them. The Crusader gets a comparable ability 6 levels earlier than them, access to 9th level spells, Invocations and the ability to dip 2 levels to get all the Smite they need (since this class' spell list isn't that impressive)
    Sorry this was supposed to be an Action to Activate. Additionally it's basically combining the level 1 channel divinity ability of the Devotion Paladin and the level 3 Barbarian Frenzy. I didn't think getting those 2 at level 14 was that out of line. Love more opinions on this.

    [*]Reliable Ally: Easy advantage is really, really strong. This is almost no cost, and can be gotten at level 1. Much too strong for the level.
    With Barbarians being able to give all adjacent allies advantage for free at level 3, I didn't think using a bonus action was out of line. I'd love more thoughts.

    [*]Spell Block: 1/short rest completely counterspell something that only targets you using no actions whatsoever? Hi there Finger of Death bye Finger of Death. This blocks everything from the lowliest of Charm Persons to the deadliest Power Word Kill. What's better? No real resource cost, and recharges on short rests. This is comparable to a capstone ability (could be better because it requires no action)
    This was supposed to be a reaction and was an oversight on the description. The idea was a free use of the spell counter-spell. Didn't seem game breaking.

    [*]Divine Intervention: The listed action is a reaction, but a reaction to what? There is no condition that triggers this, and the ability is very strong. Immunity to spell effects is comparable to one of the uses for Wish, and Wish only blocks ONE spell or magical effect (albeit for a much longer period). If I assume correctly and your intent was to let the Crusader use this in response to a harmful effect, it's an even better version of Spell Block, and that ability was broken.
    The reaction would be if an ally was about to be injured or if you're about to be injured you can activate this as a reaction. The description is poorly written. The idea was a reverse hurl through hell, I remove 1 ally from the battle field for 1 round and come back healed.

    [*]Armor of Light: Resistance to mundane abilities at low cost in a low level game is very strong. You're basically a raging barbarian all day every day until you find better uses for your bonus action (of which there are many with this class if you go the Angel of Hope route, but other routes can still find good use for this ability)
    You're correct I'll change this. I threw the invocations together at the last minute.

    [*]Punish the Wicked: It's the Warlock's Lifedrinker ability, obtained one level earlier, and applies to ALL weapon attacks, not just those granted by the Pact Weapon. There is no restriction of Pact Boons, so you could pick one of the other two really strong Boons (The Portent ability is very strong, and so is getting 3 cantrips when the class normally gets none). Crusader is also more poised to use this ability, since they have proficiency with heavy armor and can dump Dex to the ground, allowing them to use a weapon with a higher damage die to get even MORE damage while still maintaining a high AC.
    Yes it applies to all weapons because all arche types are melee builds, it was supposed to be at level 12, not 11 that was an oversight and will be fixed. Again trading 4d10 + 20 ranged attacks for potentially 2d10 +20 melee attacks seems on par for me.

    [*]Repelling Strike: No save push or prone is stronger than the Shield Master feat, which only allows you a shove attempt (but doesn't guarantee success).
    The Warlock gets 4 free 10ft shoves an attack. Using a bonus action seemed okay for this. I'll look into, as I said wasn't happy with invocations.

    [*]Versatile Strike: This brings the Crusader up to Great Weapon Fighting Fighter level dps (even better if you also have Punish the Wicked). 1d10+2 is better than 1d12 rerolling 1s and 2s, and the Paladin gets to add a potential 1d10+12 damage to each of his attacks before magic damage.
    Was trying to come up with something similar to Agonizing blast. Level 2 invocation that increases your base damage. An invocation to increase from 1d8 to 1d10 bringing it inline with Eldricht Blast of the same level, again only melee and not ranged.

    If you found some abilities underwhelming, it is likely because you were comparing them with most of the abilities this class gets, which all happen to be overpowered in relation to other available options. If you don't want to read through all this criticism, I have a tl;dr at the bottom.

    TL;DR: The class is too strong. Can fight AND cast spells and does each better than a normal class would. Abilities are wildly inappropriate for their levels and are often too strong for 5e. Pls nerf.
    I agree some items were out of line i'll work on those. I'd appreciate it you could read through my responses maybe better understand what I was trying to accomplish and let me know on this.

    Thanks
    Last edited by Ramshack; 2014-10-22 at 09:36 AM.
    My Homebrew:

    5e Crusader

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    I agree with Pramxnim, this overshadows so many in battle with offensive, defensive, and control options it really needs to be cut down.
    1. The 5e Paladin shouldn't be your point of balance here. While other mundanes are still competitive its ability to deliver heavy and save-suck type hits are immense. Additionally many of its spells and oaths bring in a lot of defense.
    2. While I believe the Warlock has a bit of a clunky design and a bit of a haphazard treatment with invocations it at least has a few good things to keep it from being the all-character. One is that its Pact Boons are strictly tied with certain invocations. This means that a Pact of the Tome couldn't possibly be a melee gish because its specialty is utility casting allowing it to use any spell that is a ritual and the Extra Attack as well as Charisma bonus damage was strictly tied with the Pact of the Blade. Yours has no such restrictions with any Archetype or Aspect can be used in whatever way and you will still be a melee, defense, and control monster.
    3. If you are going to keep the Warlock design and melee base you might have to consider not having 6-9 spells and stagger the spell levels out while ressurrecting the more powerful spells in your Angels. This would also entail that you would move the archetypes to later levels.
    I agree I've swung the first round of nerf bats to the class. But I'm concerned people are getting to caught up with the melee improvements without considering the loss of the ranged components from the warlock class.

    There are only 3 invocations that require a specific pact boon to select. And the one I think most people are thinking of is Life Drinker. It seems like you're concerned all 3 arch types have access to this one Invocation.

    However I think it's important to consider that I've removed the class defining feature from the warlock, Eldritch Blast. Without this single cantrip the cast goes from a sustained ranged dps power house to a second rate caster limited to 1 6th level, 1 7th level, 8 th level and 1 9th level spell per day.

    To compensate for this feature I've tried to Enhance the Crusader's melee abilities. 1 Die increase for HP since they can't blast from 300 feet anymore, A second attack for free since they don't have Eldritch Blast that automatically scales to 4 attacks. And Invocations or this case Blessings that improve the melee attack for all Archtypes just like there are invocations that improve Eldritch blast for all arche types.

    I hope this might help clarify the design choices.
    Last edited by Ramshack; 2014-10-22 at 09:26 AM.
    My Homebrew:

    5e Crusader

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    I agree I've swung the first round of nerf bats to the class. But I'm concerned people are getting to caught up with the melee improvements without considering the loss of the ranged components from the warlock class.

    There are only 3 invocations that require a specific pact boon to select. And the one I think most people are thinking of is Life Drinker. It seems like you're concerned all 3 arch types have access to this one Invocation.

    However I think it's important to consider that I've removed the class defining feature from the warlock, Eldritch Blast. Without this single cantrip the cast goes from a sustained ranged dps power house to a second rate caster limited to 1 6th level, 1 7th level, 8 th level and 1 9th level spell per day.

    To compensate for this feature I've tried to Enhance the Crusader's melee abilities. 1 Die increase for HP since they can't blast from 300 feet anymore, A second attack for free since they don't have Eldritch Blast that automatically scales to 4 attacks. And Invocations or this case Blessings that improve the melee attack for all Archtypes just like there are invocations that improve Eldritch blast for all arche types.

    I hope this might help clarify the design choices.
    1. Actually there is 5, as I said the extra attack or Thirsting Blade is solely with the Pact of the Blade. Also, two are with the Pact of The Chain even though it is the inferior choice. The point is the Archetypes merely just give you more abilities of a certain kind while still having a commanding gish chasis. In order to give perspective your chasis gives about the same kind of base benefit as a College of Valor bard with more defense and hit points.
    2. While it most certainly stacks up to be one of the better blasting cantrips it actually isn't the best in ranged damage output. You can expect at the point where you get 4 blasts that they will have a +3 bow along with the Dexterity to damage. A Fighter can pick up Archery style for 2 more attack along with Sharpshooter they can trade 5 attack for 10 damage which then they still has the same attack as you. Additionally, many of maneuvers can use ranged attacks.
    3. But they use 3 invocations to do so, not class features.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2014-10-22 at 09:54 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    1. Actually there is 5, as I said the extra attack or Thirsting Blade is solely with the Pact of the Blade. Also, two are with the Pact of The Chain even though it is the inferior choice. The point is the Archetypes merely just give you more abilities of a certain kind while still having a commanding gish chasis. In order to give perspective your chasis gives about the same kind of base benefit as a College of Valor bard with more defense and hit points.
    2. While it most certainly stacks up to be one of the better blasting cantrips it actually isn't the best in ranged damage output. You can expect at the point where you get 4 blasts that they will have a +3 bow along with the Dexterity to damage. A Fighter can pick up Archery style for 2 more attack along with Sharpshooter they can trade 5 attack for 10 damage which then they still has the same attack as you. Additionally, many of maneuvers can use ranged attacks.
    3. But they use 2 invocations to do so, not class features.
    Simple solution is to replace Second Attack and make it an Invocation then. I just assumed the Crusader having 2 free attacks wouldn't cause such an out cry, considering that the warlock uses Eldritchblast which scales to 4 attacks.
    My Homebrew:

    5e Crusader

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    Simple solution is to replace Second Attack and make it an Invocation then. I just assumed the Crusader having 2 free attacks wouldn't cause such an out cry, considering that the warlock uses Eldritchblast which scales to 4 attacks.
    It isn't the Extra Attack, it is the fact that in comparison a fighting warlock only has a buffed cantrip to contend against you when you have class features that can absorb it while having very similar casting on top of melee lock down as well as damage. If they would bring back ki weapons a Monk has four attacks and can transform them into d10's at the same levels as the 4 blasts. In fact I think people would say that is the last thing to take away as it goes against the image of a Crusader.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    It isn't the Extra Attack, it is the fact that in comparison a fighting warlock only has a buffed cantrip to contend against you when you have class features that can absorb it while having very similar casting on top of melee lock down as well as damage. If they would bring back ki weapons a Monk has four attacks and can transform them into d10's at the same levels as the 4 blasts. In fact I think people would say that is the last thing to take away as it goes against the image of a Crusader.
    I would entreat you to please reread the document with the changes. Many of the class features have been removed or changed.

    I would still ask you to keep an open mind to the fact that yes the character will have better melee combat in exchange for limited to non existent ranged combat. You also act as if the Warlock doesn't have class features of their own.

    Also the class can't really do all those things at once, you only choose one patron.
    Last edited by Ramshack; 2014-10-22 at 12:08 PM.
    My Homebrew:

    5e Crusader

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Currently working on creating aspect specific invocations/blessings
    Last edited by Ramshack; 2014-10-22 at 04:06 PM.
    My Homebrew:

    5e Crusader

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Comparing this against the Crusader I knew and loved in 3.5:

    1) Probably one of the more iconic stances (Martial Spirit) is nowhere in here in any form. I would almost suggest trying to come up with a version of it to swap for "Shared Strength" under Auriel.

    2) A glance at the PHB tells me that your spell progression is way too fast. I would push the fifth level spells out to level 14 or 15.

    3) Kinda feels like you're missing a lot of the crusader mechanics. At this point it just looks like a divine warlock had a baby with a fighter. If you really want this to be more melee-oriented, I would suggest converting the spellcasting to be a part of the melee. For example, you could tie a Cure Light Wounds spell to an attack, trading the damage for the spell's effects (on yourself or another target?), which is somewhat similar to how Maneuvers worked. Though you might have to reduce what spells would work this way.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Starcofski View Post
    Comparing this against the Crusader I knew and loved in 3.5:

    1) Probably one of the more iconic stances (Martial Spirit) is nowhere in here in any form. I would almost suggest trying to come up with a version of it to swap for "Shared Strength" under Auriel.

    2) A glance at the PHB tells me that your spell progression is way too fast. I would push the fifth level spells out to level 14 or 15.

    3) Kinda feels like you're missing a lot of the crusader mechanics. At this point it just looks like a divine warlock had a baby with a fighter. If you really want this to be more melee-oriented, I would suggest converting the spellcasting to be a part of the melee. For example, you could tie a Cure Light Wounds spell to an attack, trading the damage for the spell's effects (on yourself or another target?), which is somewhat similar to how Maneuvers worked. Though you might have to reduce what spells would work this way.
    Thanks for the input, I tried allowing some capabilities of using spells with attack actions and was told it was too over powering :)

    Additionally the spell casting progression should be identical to the warlocks in the PHB.

    Finally this class is pretty much a divine warlock with fighter lol. I didn't mean to intend to try and recreate the crusader from any previous editions.
    My Homebrew:

    5e Crusader

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Class has had a major over haul.

    Redid Class Features, Pact Boons, Divine Patron Features and a big update to the Blessings (invocations)

    I would like to create a few more unique Aspect blessings.

    Let me know what you guys think.
    My Homebrew:

    5e Crusader

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Seems reasonably balanced at first look.

    My only concern, looking over this version, is that its pact-blade equivalent is rather pointless, as it is not the prerequisite for anything. Admittedly, a +0 magic sword you can summon from nowhere is more useful for a melee class than a warlock, but it seems slightly disappointing.

    Additionally, the wording on the invocation extra attack needs to be clear that it does not stack with other Bonus Attacks.

    Overall, it seems slightly on the powerful side (with both powerful spells and effective melee), but it is probably barely alright.
    My main complaint at the moment is that it gets a D10 hit-die and all armor proficiencies with everything else. Nothing in specific seems too good, but it seems like a bit much overall.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rysan Marquise View Post
    Seems reasonably balanced at first look.

    My only concern, looking over this version, is that its pact-blade equivalent is rather pointless, as it is not the prerequisite for anything. Admittedly, a +0 magic sword you can summon from nowhere is more useful for a melee class than a warlock, but it seems slightly disappointing.
    This is a concern of mine too, the invocations/blessings aren't complete yet. If you have any suggestions I'd love to get some ideas.

    Additionally, the wording on the invocation extra attack needs to be clear that it does not stack with other Bonus Attacks.
    I can fix this - Completed

    Overall, it seems slightly on the powerful side (with both powerful spells and effective melee), but it is probably barely alright.
    My main complaint at the moment is that it gets a D10 hit-die and all armor proficiencies with everything else. Nothing in specific seems too good, but it seems like a bit much overall.
    This seems to be everyone's gut feelings. But my take on this, and if the community feels otherwise I'll be up for making changes. But Warlock can do Eldritch Blast as their primary attack evrey round, it starts as 1d10 and scales as you level to 4 1d10 attacks. Additionally you can use invocations to add cha damage to damage, 300 foot range and automatical knock back on each hit.

    The Crusader gets no cantrips to attack with each range, and has no scaling ranged attacks. He will do less damage in melee than the warlock can do at range. This is why I felt the higher durability and melee bonuses balanced out.

    Essentially the Crusader is trading a Max 4d10 +20 at 300 range + 40ft knock back with Eldritch Blast for a Max 2d10 +20 Melee attack + 1d10 HP and Armor Proficiency. Note it takes 3 invocations to boost Eldritch Blast and it takes 4 Blessings to boost the Crusaders Melee attacks and after all that ANY Crusader pact can only be as good as the Pact Blade Warlock in melee and not better.


    Thank you for your feedback though I really appreciate it. If you can think of other ways to balance the Eldritch Blast vs No Eldritch Blast equation please let me know. I've already made several and am open to everyone's input :)
    Last edited by Ramshack; 2014-10-23 at 09:31 AM.
    My Homebrew:

    5e Crusader

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    Class has had a major over haul.

    Redid Class Features, Pact Boons, Divine Patron Features and a big update to the Blessings (invocations)

    I would like to create a few more unique Aspect blessings.

    Let me know what you guys think.
    While things are better you are outright copying the Warlock. You shouldn't have changed the Aspect of Fate and the Aspect of Courage needs to be changed as well. The Aspect of Wisdom needs to be modified, maybe more so with its invocation. Let the Warlocks be the utility caster and maybe the buddy guy(even though it is the worst of the options now) as all they can have at that point is Eldritch Blast boosts in which they may have 3 or 4 invocations left. Also, since Spirit of Solarion is level 14 and once a day just let them have a bonus action attack.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2014-10-23 at 09:52 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    Essentially the Crusader is trading a Max 4d10 +20 at 300 range + 40ft knock back with Eldritch Blast for a Max 2d10 +20 Melee attack + 1d10 HP and Armor Proficiency. Note it takes 3 invocations to boost Eldritch Blast and it takes 4 Blessings to boost the Crusaders Melee attacks and after all that ANY Crusader pact can only be as good as the Pact Blade Warlock in melee and not better.


    Thank you for your feedback though I really appreciate it. If you can think of other ways to balance the Eldritch Blast vs No Eldritch Blast equation please let me know. I've already made several and am open to everyone's input :)
    Well, to be fair here you must remember that Mage Armor is only one better than light armor. Your guy can pick up defense style and still the spell is only competitive in that area if they have max dexterity. Also the magic weapon rule will likely have a +3 weapon here and technically just by temporarily grasping his weapon he has a two-handed weapon so Great Weapon Mastery becomes an option. Meaning he is likely to deal 2d10+46, which actually isn't half bad of a trade.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    You misunderstand something important.

    Yes, your spell selection is compared to warlock, but you need to look at your damage output in an absolute sense.

    At level 10, your damage output-base, is roughly equivalent to 4 1d6 weapon damage basic attacks(2d6+ability mods). Additionally, you can apply hunters mark.

    At 4d6 +4x Ability Mod +2d8 damage, you are basically comparable to a level 11 fighter at level 11 in terms of melee damage output, while practically ignoring all your spells and powers.


    If the class had a D8 HD, or had slightly less features, I think I would be OK with this.



    As far as your Aspect of Courage, I think I would recommend something like:

    Armor of Light: Req: Aspect of Courage.
    You can now summon a glowing armor of light alongside your Pact Blade. Same rules for storing/recalling your pact armor. It cannot be summoned over already placed armor, but may be any type of armor itself. This may be any type of armor, and you are automatically proficient in it.

    Armor of Hope: Req: Armor of Light. Level 11
    You may use your Armor of Light to protect you from certain doom. When you would be brought to 0 health by an attack, you may expend your armor of light to only fall to 1 health. On the following turn, you may recall your Armor of Light as usual.


    Incidentally, this also lets you remove heavy armor proficiency.



    Anyway, I think you are placing far too much of a focus on Eldrich Blast. It is a powerful ability, but it is an *unusually* powerful ability. Rather than think of what you are getting for not having eldrich blast, you should compare your general ability as a class. Crusaders are powerful spellcasters, roughly a '3/4's caster. In addition to this you want to give them broad proficiencies, a high HD, and unique powers.

    The closest class to them is a Ranger or a Paladin. Comparing them along this level it is easy to feel that they are just sorta too good.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    Well, to be fair here you must remember that Mage Armor is only one better than light armor. Your guy can pick up defense style and still the spell is only competitive in that area if they have max dexterity. Also the magic weapon rule will likely have a +3 weapon here and technically just by temporarily grasping his weapon he has a two-handed weapon so Great Weapon Mastery becomes an option. Meaning he is likely to deal 2d10+46, which actually isn't half bad of a trade.
    Ah I can see where that was the problem, I should clarify the Blessing, i only meant it to increase the die from 1d8 to 1d10 i didn't mean it to allow for use with Great Weapon Mastery or other 2 handed features.
    My Homebrew:

    5e Crusader

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rysan Marquise View Post
    You misunderstand something important.

    Yes, your spell selection is compared to warlock, but you need to look at your damage output in an absolute sense.

    At level 10, your damage output-base, is roughly equivalent to 4 1d6 weapon damage basic attacks(2d6+ability mods). Additionally, you can apply hunters mark.

    At 4d6 +4x Ability Mod +2d8 damage, you are basically comparable to a level 11 fighter at level 11 in terms of melee damage output, while practically ignoring all your spells and powers.


    If the class had a D8 HD, or had slightly less features, I think I would be OK with this.



    As far as your Aspect of Courage, I think I would recommend something like:

    Armor of Light: Req: Aspect of Courage.
    You can now summon a glowing armor of light alongside your Pact Blade. Same rules for storing/recalling your pact armor. It cannot be summoned over already placed armor, but may be any type of armor itself. This may be any type of armor, and you are automatically proficient in it.

    Armor of Hope: Req: Armor of Light. Level 11
    You may use your Armor of Light to protect you from certain doom. When you would be brought to 0 health by an attack, you may expend your armor of light to only fall to 1 health. On the following turn, you may recall your Armor of Light as usual.


    Incidentally, this also lets you remove heavy armor proficiency.



    Anyway, I think you are placing far too much of a focus on Eldrich Blast. It is a powerful ability, but it is an *unusually* powerful ability. Rather than think of what you are getting for not having eldrich blast, you should compare your general ability as a class. Crusaders are powerful spellcasters, roughly a '3/4's caster. In addition to this you want to give them broad proficiencies, a high HD, and unique powers.

    The closest class to them is a Ranger or a Paladin. Comparing them along this level it is easy to feel that they are just sorta too good.
    Thank you for the good input, I do like the blessing ideas you included.

    Also Hunter's Mark is only available to one of the Arch Types, and should probably be removed since I changed the theme of that Patron from a seeker of justice to a defender/support
    My Homebrew:

    5e Crusader

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Armor of Hope: Req: Armor of Light. Level 11
    You may use your Armor of Light to protect you from certain doom. When you would be brought to 0 health by an attack, you may expend your armor of light to only fall to 1 health. On the following turn, you may recall your Armor of Light as usual.
    As written this seems open to abuse, and you could essentially avoid a killing blow every other round.

    If I drop the Proficiency to Medium, and add the armor of light feature, remove the hunter's mark from the expanded spell list from the Justice Arche Type and Clarify that Versatile Swings does not make the weapon eligible for any other benefit of using a 2 handed weapon all move the class in the right direction?
    My Homebrew:

    5e Crusader

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Clearwater FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    While things are better you are outright copying the Warlock. You shouldn't have changed the Aspect of Fate and the Aspect of Courage needs to be changed as well. The Aspect of Wisdom needs to be modified, maybe more so with its invocation.
    I've been thinking of this and what gifts an angel might bestow upon their champion while it was easy to copy the Warlock ideas from a balance stand point It would be nice to design unique gifts that are balanced.
    My Homebrew:

    5e Crusader

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    Ah I can see where that was the problem, I should clarify the Blessing, i only meant it to increase the die from 1d8 to 1d10 i didn't mean it to allow for use with Great Weapon Mastery or other 2 handed features.
    Then the invocation is next to useless. In order to enforce what I mean every fighting style is statistically better. 3.X Weapons Focus is better. Honestly, I don't mind the way I saw it. You must understand though that because this is the case you shouldn't be outright copying everything of the Warlock as in the end all it would have is Eldritch Blast and a few different pact spells.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    I've been thinking of this and what gifts an angel might bestow upon their champion while it was easy to copy the Warlock ideas from a balance stand point It would be nice to design unique gifts that are balanced.
    The Aspect of Fate at first actually was a very interesting idea. Warlocks don't have much in terms of playing luck. Plus the idea wasn't at all that imbalanced. Two rolls in which you replaced anyone else's before you ever knew the roll. It provided a potential buff or debuff but with variability because they could easily be 2 middle rolls. The only thing I would do at that point is keep it to yourself, this puts it in relation to the Wild Magic Sorcerer because he has to have a Wild Surge at a random time for his single advantage roll. Then it would slowly add one until you have about 5 in the end for the day. You could easily make about 3 invocations using this. One that rolls twice for each roll choosing which ones you want. Second that gives it to others in a certain range. Third that outright just lets you take a specified number rather than a roll.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2014-10-23 at 11:53 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2017

    Default Re: 5e Crusader Class Homebrew [PEACH]

    You have any plans of including the other archangels like Mathael or Ithereal

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •