Common Sense v. D&D

[eggynack]

I didn't actually "note it's definitely possible". Allow me to clarify that I in fact noted that it's definitely impossible without the use of magic and supernatural abilities. Falling off a plane and surviving, on the other hand, is possibly even without focusing on "I'm going to build a character whose schtick is surviving falls"

But the issue is, that totally matches common sense (or at least regular sense). People have fallen out of plane and survived. People have been stabbed and survived .People have gotten shot in the head and survived. Nobody has currently lifted a bridge, to my knowledge. The reason common sense doesn't necessarily match the game rules is because common sense also doesn't match reality.

[TypoNinja]

That will have to be an issue of interpretation and taste. I have always thought of high-level D&D characters more like Aragorn and Gandalf, supremely capable individuals who are still human.

It's been brought up before, but generally LotR characters are not very high level. As you noted, they are still human (Or you know not, as the case may be, yay other races!).

D&D leaves normal human behind pretty quickly, 5th level or so tops. The power scale is just that high. First level PC's are Olympic Champions, you are the pinnacle of your species at 1st level, now start adding class levels.

By tenth level, we aren't even pretending to not be superhuman anymore, even stripped of magical gear and not including spell casters simple class features make characters superhuman. Even the rather mundane Barbarian has DR 2/- at this point, which means that while playing a drunken game of darts you could accidentally bury one in his eye (crit) and he'd just pull it back out and keep going, completely unharmed.

Think of the major problems for most of your favorite fantasy series, how low level do you have to be to solve them? The battle of Helms Deep could be ended by 5-6 guys with a wand of fireball, never mind the really nasty stuff like Cloud Kill. My D&D group actually played in a Westeros setting game. We bent it over fast, even with no caster PC's and no access to magic items. D&D just scales up that fast.

Its the difference between Hero and Superhero. And D&D leaves normal Hero behind pretty rapidly.

[Venger]

this article lays out pretty well how many iconic fictional characters, especially the lotr crew, are very low level when put in terms of D&D.

superheroes is putting it mildly. by level 20, even the worst classes are basically gods in D&D.

[TypoNinja]

this article lays out pretty well how many iconic fictional characters, especially the lotr crew, are very low level when put in terms of D&D.

superheroes is putting it mildly. by level 20, even the worst classes are basically gods in D&D.

If you are a 1st level commoner, how do you tell the difference between a 20th level caster, and a God?

Can he...

Bring back the dead? Check.

Stop time? Check.

Kill with a glance or a word? Check.

Bestow powers on others? Check.

Even your clerics would get spells, the only power you'd lack would be divine salient abilities, and those are pretty reproduceable until you you climb the Divine Ranks a bit.

[Mcdt2]

I didn't actually "note it's definitely possible". Allow me to clarify that I in fact noted that it's definitely impossible without the use of magic and supernatural abilities. Falling off a plane and surviving, on the other hand, is possibly even without focusing on "I'm going to build a character whose schtick is surviving falls"

While it is true that it's far more difficult to be that strong without magic, it's certainly doable. Off the top of my head:
Half-Minotaur (+1 LA) Orc Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 1/War Hulk 10/Any 2
18 Base Str
+4 Orc
+12 Half Minotaur (+4 racial, +8 size)
+20 War Hulk
+5 level up bonuses
+4 Rage
+6 Frenzy
=69 Str while rage/frenzying, 59 otherwise, without any magic or supernatural abilities at all. Your large size gives x2 carrying capacity, so you could lift 179,200 lbs as a heavy load, allowing you to easily lift that 50 ton bridge over your head. While raging and frenzying, in fact, you could lift almost 360 tons.

Of course, you're a mindless hulking beast who's a TPK waiting to happen, but this was just a quick example. Probably a better idea to go with a Goliath and take Mountain Rage (assuming that it lets you qualify for Frenzied Berserker; dubious), and/or Reckless Rage for another +2 Str/Con in rage (along with -2 AC). That way, you can be intelligent when you need to and "hulk out" when it's bridge throwing time.

[Fax Celestis]

A 20th level Fighter is lying in his bed, soundly asleep.
A 1st lvl commoner sneaks into his room, draws his knife and slits the Fighters throat.
The Fighter mutters in his sleep, swats the commoner away from his face like an annoying fly (killing him instantly), turns over and sleeps on, completely unaffected.

Yay hit points!

Relevant to your post.

[Necroticplague]

While it is true that it's far more difficult to be that strong without magic, it's certainly doable. Off the top of my head:
Half-Minotaur (+1 LA) Orc Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 1/War Hulk 10/Any 2
18 Base Str
+4 Orc
+12 Half Minotaur (+4 racial, +8 size)
+20 War Hulk
+5 level up bonuses
+4 Rage
+6 Frenzy
=69 Str while rage/frenzying, 59 otherwise, without any magic or supernatural abilities at all. Your large size gives x2 carrying capacity, so you could lift 179,200 lbs as a heavy load, allowing you to easily lift that 50 ton bridge over your head. While raging and frenzying, in fact, you could lift almost 360 tons.

Of course, you're a mindless hulking beast who's a TPK waiting to happen, but this was just a quick example. Probably a better idea to go with a Goliath and take Mountain Rage (assuming that it lets you qualify for Frenzied Berserker; dubious), and/or Reckless Rage for another +2 Str/Con in rage (along with -2 AC). That way, you can be intelligent when you need to and "hulk out" when it's bridge throwing time.

Or on a somewhat Simpler Note:
Half-Goristro Human Fighter 5/Warhulk10/wwhatever1:
18 base.
+24 half-goristro (+8 racial, +16 size)
+20 War hulk
62 STR

However, your size is also set to Huge, which gives a x4 multiplier to your capacity. You could constantly lift that 50 tons over your head. It would constantly slow you down, but you could do it. With a mere 1 feat used (Natural Heavyweight), your capacity would double, turning that bridge into just a medium load.

But still, the point stands no matter how you cut it: "epic" deeds of superhuman ability are quite possible before the game technically hits "epic", even without taking magic into account.

[Arbane]

"Hey, you know how those guys are each killing one guy per second without taking significant injuries? And they've already killed half of us? Yeah, let's keep fighting them and getting murdered instead of running away."

Hiariously, Basic D&D (you remember, the 'kiddie' simplified version?) actually HAD rules for monster morale. Most enemies were likely to flee if you hurt them badly or killed enough of their allies. (Except undead, which tended to fight to the last zombie, which is part of why they were so scary.)

But really, the absence of rules for morale just means that the DM will have to (ugh) 'roleplay' those doomed mooks.

[Curmudgeon]

wizard throws a fireball at a rogue, the rogue gets a decent roll and stands there spinning in place "evading" all damage.

There's nothing relating to common sense about a Wizard throwing a Fireball. Given that the Fireball isn't sensible, the Rogue evading it is.

[TypoNinja]

Hiariously, Basic D&D (you remember, the 'kiddie' simplified version?) actually HAD rules for monster morale. Most enemies were likely to flee if you hurt them badly or killed enough of their allies. (Except undead, which tended to fight to the last zombie, which is part of why they were so scary.)

But really, the absence of rules for morale just means that the DM will have to (ugh) 'roleplay' those doomed mooks.

Didn't Heros of Battle give us morale rules?

There's nothing relating to common sense about a Wizard throwing a Fireball. Given that the Fireball isn't sensible, the Rogue evading it is.

I know a guy who stopped playing because this fact (and similar) just bugged him too much. Dude couldn't let go.

"Its a 20 foot room and a 40 foot fireball, where the hell are you evading to?"

Man, its magic, it doesn't have to be logical, it just has to say that's the way it works.

[eggynack]

Man, its magic, it doesn't have to be logical, it just has to say that's the way it works.

Alternatively, it actually is logical, because the fireball doesn't necessarily occupy the entire area it's in. Seems like an argument supported by the fact that there's a reflex save in the first place, because I don't think a passed save necessarily leads to movement out of your square. Either way, I suppose.

[Curmudgeon]

I know a guy who stopped playing because this fact (and similar) just bugged him too much. Dude couldn't let go.

"Its a 20 foot room and a 40 foot fireball, where the hell are you evading to?"

Man, its magic, it doesn't have to be logical, it just has to say that's the way it works.

The explosion creates almost no pressure.

An explosion which creates almost no pressure is slow enough to evade. You can watch the individual tendrils of flame, and slip between them if you're sufficiently adroit (Evasion). Heck, even those who don't have that training (class feature) can bypass half the damage if they've got decent reflexes: the Fireball is just that slow.

[Svata]

I know there's no support for it anywhere, but I've always fluffed evasion as him being so damned good that he momentarily becomes ethereal, but can only maintain it long enough to dodge the blast.

[Necroticplague]

I know there's no support for it anywhere, but I've always fluffed evasion as him being so damned good that he momentarily becomes ethereal, but can only maintain it long enough to dodge the blast.

I always thought of it as being like dodges in some video games: with proper timing, you can make the attack hit you when your invincible against it. The reflex save indicates how good your timing was.

[Psyren]

Evasion explicitly states you must have room to move (RC 113). Having said that, a fireball does not perfectly fill every cube of its area either.

[Elkad]

Wearing Full Plate 24/7? Sure!

Dunno about full plate, but I've spent a fair amount of time wearing a flak vest, helmet, and wads of pouches and such with canteens, bayonet, ammo, pistol, etc.
You don't take the time to remove 60lbs of various gear until you are going to sleep for more than 2 hours straight. Pull your blanket out and drape it over everything. Leaving your helmet on is actually a fair substitute for a pillow.

(And wandering off-topic, sleeping in a helmet saved a friend of mine. 10 ton 6x6 truck ran over his HEAD. Cracked the Kevlar, no damage to him.)

2. You hear an explosion 100 feet away. "Lets go investigate"

"March towards the sound of the guns" is an old military adage.

More recently, look at the Boston Marathon bombing footage. Most people started running away. But a small percentage ran towards the explosion.

[Frozen_Feet]

Common misconception, actually.

"Common sense" has so much overlap with "common misconceptions" that they're almost synonymous.

Have done this several times in RL. The fact that the company I own deals in military equipment has much to do with this, but this does not strike me as a counter to common sense.

Any reason or rationalization specific to some vocation or field of expertise is excluded from "common sense" for the simple reason of being uncommon.

Common sense is not the same as "logical". Common sense is not the same as "possible within limits of physics". Common sense is intented to be "what even the average uneducated person could know", but in practice ends up being "what the average uneducated person believes he knows".

[Sir Garanok]

Having the chance to become a god among mortals and living a commoner's life because its dangerous.

And you have hit points.

[daremetoidareyo]

Evasion explicitly states you must have room to move (RC 113). Having said that, a fireball does not perfectly fill every cube of its area either.

Further, a rogue with quick reflexes can lift up a hewn cobblestone and use it as a shield at the last minute, or flip his back pack around and use that to absorb the flames, or simply dive behind another, slower party member, "drafting" them in a way for the heat sink their body provides behind themselves.

[TypoNinja]

Further, a rogue with quick reflexes can lift up a hewn cobblestone and use it as a shield at the last minute, or flip his back pack around and use that to absorb the flames, or simply dive behind another, slower party member, "drafting" them in a way for the heat sink their body provides behind themselves.

This is similar to the closest thing we got got logical with stuff like evasion and improved evasion. You manage to turn at the perfect angle to minimize the damage, that kind of thing.

[Vogonjeltz]

Eh, I think the D&D rules are actually common sense for the most part. Here's a smattering of the ones claimed that I don't agree with:

3. I move and attack THEN you move and attack

I don't think this one is fair. The rules themselves indicate the actions are happening simultaneously, this is just mechanics so that people can actually play the game. It's just a simulation of how it would work.

Wearing Full Plate 24/7? Sure!

Sleeping in plate armor fatigues the characters, that would tend to simulate this not being wise.

Or did you just mean wearing armor for long periods of time while awake should be exhausting? I don't know that I agree. Is there any reason armor isn't simply like having heavy clothes? Why wouldn't a very strong person be capable of functioning in it over long periods of time?

*thank you sonofzeal for the explanation further down.

Wood is not damaged by fire.

Things that can live forever without any energy supply.

Merchants that trade items valuable enough to buy a small kingdom regularly, and don't own a small kingdom.

1) What? "Vulnerability to Certain Attacks Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object’s hardness." Wood is fairly well known as being vulnerable to fire, and the PHB instructions on this provide several common sense examples where this occurs. For some reason the SRD20 fails to mention that this is all at DM discretion, so any failure of common sense is directly the fault of the DM.

2) Everything that's non-living (afaik) is explained as being powered by some other energy source (undead are powered by negative energy from the negative energy plane, for example).

3) Eh in whose rules? There are defined limits on the maximum gold value of items that can be sold/bought in settlements of given sizes, and there are also rules for the total wealth in those settlements. The total wealth vastly exceeds the maximum value of items sold/bought, and that's just for a single town/city, not a whole kingdom.

It just seems like a false interpretation. It comes across as somewhat circular, but when you're dealing with characters that can fall out of a plane and live,

I agree adventurers are remarkable people, but this has happened for normal humans: https://www.google.com/#q=man+surviv...ling+6.5+miles
http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...safety/4344036

Any reason or rationalization specific to some vocation or field of expertise is excluded from "common sense" for the simple reason of being uncommon.

So Common Sense isn't really that desirable a state of being anyway, because it's apt to be wrong or have misconceptions about how the universe and the things in it work?

[Wolfepuppy]

That will have to be an issue of interpretation and taste. I have always thought of high-level D&D characters more like Aragorn and Gandalf, supremely capable individuals who are still human.

Sorry Gandalf was not human, that is all

[Slipperychicken]

Hiariously, Basic D&D (you remember, the 'kiddie' simplified version?) actually HAD rules for monster morale. Most enemies were likely to flee if you hurt them badly or killed enough of their allies. (Except undead, which tended to fight to the last zombie, which is part of why they were so scary.)

But really, the absence of rules for morale just means that the DM will have to (ugh) 'roleplay' those doomed mooks.

3.5 does have some vestigial morale rules in Heroes of Battle, but I find them pretty lacking.

I haven't seen or played Basic, but WotC already confirmed that morale is going to be in the 5th edition DMG. I'm just hoping they get it right this time around.

[Venger]

Sorry Gandalf was not human, that is all

Neither was Aragorn, for that matter.

[eggynack]

I agree adventurers are remarkable people, but this has happened for normal humans: https://www.google.com/#q=man+surviv...ling+6.5+miles
http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...safety/4344036

Yeah, brought that argument back into it later. Really though, I think the claim holds up for any sort of common sense based on what one would reasonably assume of the character's capabilities. Unless a big discrepancy between capability in one area and capability in another can be shown, then it makes limited sense to argue that a given feat makes no sense for that character's nature.

[Vogonjeltz]

Yeah, brought that argument back into it later. Really though, I think the claim holds up for any sort of common sense based on what one would reasonably assume of the character's capabilities. Unless a big discrepancy between capability in one area and capability in another can be shown, then it makes limited sense to argue that a given feat makes no sense for that character's nature.

Agreed, I'm pretty willing to suspend disbelief for games.

[Deadline]

2. You hear an explosion 100 feet away. "Lets go investigate"

The best part about this quote is that I can't tell if you are mocking the "go towards the dangerous catastrophe" mentality, or if you are mocking the distance penalties to Listen checks.

[Thanatosia]

A 20th level Fighter is lying in his bed, soundly asleep.
A 1st lvl commoner sneaks into his room, draws his knife and slits the Fighters throat.
The Fighter mutters in his sleep, swats the commoner away from his face like an annoying fly (killing him instantly), turns over and sleeps on, completely unaffected.

Yay hit points!

Coup de grace exists in D&D. lv1 commoner just needs to take a full round action. Poor fighter probably never had skillpoints to spare to invest in getting a higher Listen check then he had at lv1 too more the likely.

[Svata]

Coup de grace exists in D&D. lv1 commoner just needs to take a full round action. Poor fighter probably never had skillpoints to spare to invest in getting a higher Listen check then he had at lv1 too more the likely.

*cough* (beat you to it last page)

I believe the assassination attempt would be a coup-de-grace. Still unlikely to kill, but at least it requires a DC 21-25 (DC of 15+ damage, auto-crit, max damage, 8-12 STR) fort save. At least a 5% chance to fail, probably more unless they're above ~15th level.

[Vortenger]

Any reason or rationalization specific to some vocation or field of expertise is excluded from "common sense" for the simple reason of being uncommon.

Common sense is not the same as "logical". Common sense is not the same as "possible within limits of physics". Common sense is intented to be "what even the average uneducated person could know", but in practice ends up being "what the average uneducated person believes he knows".

I must agree to disagree. Most folks I know that show a modicum of common sense hold that sense of any kind is anything but common.

Common sense is that which sensible people hope everyone knows. YMMV.

How does the frequency of the explosions dealt with on a day to day basis change what is sensible in response? (Common or otherwise.) Are you saying that it would be less sensible to run towards the explosion if my occupation dealt with less explosive ordinance? The profession I'm in has no bearing on whether the instinct to check on my contemporaries regardless of personal risk is sensible or not.