Liches

[Gallazius]

Dming a campaign in Thay for Feurune and i have a question pertaining to the future and some other additional little ones.


How powerful should a lich be? I have players who are seeking lichdom also dry lich and i am unsure just how powerful they can be. I am fairly familiar but certain things are lost on me.

Can liches control the undead? I don't mean as a spell but more so an ability. Whats the best way to do this other than being a cleric?

The setting is forgotten realms and hence liches are going to be more powerful naturally but do they get additional powers? I know theirs a book somewhere for liches and they have unique abilities in it. Its the same collection as the vampire hunting one and ghost hunting.

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Player wise - does a pure wizard of equal lv stand a chance against a lich or dry lich? If not - is their a prestige that could even the field in terms of power?
Also does a sorceror/incantrix of equal lv stand a chance?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The Lich Template requires a feat and a caster level of 12 before you can kiss your mortal life behind. Without tricks, that means you have a spellcaster typically capable of throwing down at least 6th level spells and has 12 levels under their belt. Naturally, as with just about everything in 3.5, there's a way to get there early. On the lower end of the optimization spectrum, things like spellgifted can shave a level off. Higher end, you're looking at Master Spellthief Ultimate Magi stacking their caster levels to crazy amounts due to how nuts that feat can get.

That being said, I'm not sure how fast you could actually become a lich via these tricks. I know someone used a Hexblade combination to get the template with I think practiced spellcaster and maybe another trick or two. That's not quite as impressive since that class is a half-caster, so you're fighting to get the template "on time" at 12th level.

As for Dry Lich, using the more liberal (and mathematically accurate meaning) of "or" in regards to casting three spells from a selection of two domains, a cleric with both of said domains can enter Walker in the Waste at 4th level. That pushes the template back to 13th level, one after your standard just-lich Lich. If anyone knows a trick to get Archivists to cast spells up their level-grade beyond buying scrolls of the ranger or paladin version where your hypothetical spell is a lower level, you'd be able to get the Dry Lich Template at 11. Sadly, I do not think this is possible.


I know between Dragon magazines and the monster manuals, there are other Lich templates. I believe Dragon has the Suel Lich, but that's more of a Greyhawk thing. If I recall correctly, Monsters of Faerun has either the Baelnorn or the Good Lich template. Those probably aren't what you're looking for, but they're there.


EDIT: As for the question, the templates give a string of immunities and stat adjustments. A 12th level wizard versus a 12th level wizard lich is at a slight disadvantage, all other things being equal. That being said, very really are all other things equal.

[Lightlawbliss]

In my experience, lichdom is weaker then the level adjustment required for it. LA 4 is a massive hit to a caster by all accounts, and a lich doesn't really make up for that.

For comparison, say an 11th lvl wizard turn lich, now ECL 15. A 15th lvl wizard has gained the use of 7th and 8th level spells over the lich, as well as more slots in other levels of spells and an increased caster level. That is a massive power jump. Most of a Lich's LA adjustment is the fact they are hard to really kill, but that ability is trading time for 10k gold. you can buy 12 true resurrections with the cost of becoming a lich so I hope coming back to life isn't the main reason for becoming one.

[OldTrees1]

Liches don't have any special ability to control undead from being a lich. Lichdom takes a caster and adds: Fear, Nasty Necrotic Touch and True Immortality(return after bodily destruction). Any caster can become a lich.

However it is common for a Lich to have a necromancy background to better mesh with the necromancy flavor of the lich. This background can come in the form of Cleric, Specialist Wizard, Dread Necromancer, or other avenues. The background usually is where the control of undead comes from. Each backgound controls undead through different means with much overlap. Command Undead(2nd level spell), Rebuke Undead(class feature), Animate Dead(2nd-4th level spell), Leadership(feat), and Animate Dread Warrior(6th level spell).

WotC thinks that a Lich/Dry lich is equal power with a Wizard of their level+4/+5 (Lich/Dry lich has +4/+5 level adjustment respectively). However an accurate measurement depends on the optimization level of your group. An incantrix sor/wiz will probably be equal or greater power than a single classed lich wizard (based on the average optimization level of players that use the incantrix prestige class). In my group I give the Lich/Dry lich a +2/+3 level adjustment(aka the Lich/dry lich is 2/3 levels behind the group).

[Zanos]

Lichs are scary because they're usually wizards who have an unlimited amount of time to leverage their massive intelligence scores to scheme. If you're running a Lich as an NPC, they should be extremely crafty, paranoid, plan for every contingency, and have schemes within their schemes.

Mechanically, I'd rather be a Wizard 15 than a Lich Wizard 11. It's all about spells.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Lichs are scary because they're usually wizards who have an unlimited amount of time to leverage their massive intelligence scores to scheme. If you're running a Lich as an NPC, they should be extremely crafty, paranoid, plan for every contingency, and have schemes within their schemes.

Mechanically, I'd rather be a Wizard 15 than a Lich Wizard 11. It's all about spells.

Your avatar is especially on point here.

I will echo what others have said: if it's for a player that wants to be undead, eating the 10 levels in Walker in the Waste is probably better than getting the Dry Lich template with the +5 LA rather than via the class. If they wish to be an arcane spellcaster, there's always Necropolitan out of Libris Mortis. Necropolitan is a little bare-bones in that it really just gives you the undead type, but it's there. Level adjustment above +3 is hard to overcome. Less HD means less HP, skills, and everything else. While it is possible to overcome some LA (either by the LA buy-off rules or just eating 1 or 2 levels lost), higher level spells get very good as you work your way from 1st-2nd on up to 9th level.

[Chronos]

For practical purposes, there really isn't such a thing as taking the Dry Lich template other than through the class. You can only take the template if you can craft the canopic jars, and you can only craft the canopic jars if you're a Walker in the Waste. Which really leads one to question just what the LA is there fore: One interpretation is that you get stuck with it even if you get the template from the class.