Magic the Gathering XX: KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANS!!!

[IthilanorStPete]

A couple questions about order of events here. I've been playing DotP 2015, as I mentioned earlier, and I want to make sure I'm not learning things the wrong way. Here's two scenarios.


- A Trained Caracal (1/1 lifelink) and an Ajani's Pridemate (currently 6/6) attack. The opponent only has a 1/2 to block with, so he blocks the Trained Caracal. Does he take 6 damage or 7? What if the Trained Caracal had First Strike?

He would take 6 damage. As all damage resolved, you (the controller of the Caracal/Pridemate) would gain 1 life; this would then trigger the Pridemate's ability. The Pridemate's ability would then resolve and grant it an additional counter, but it would be after damage had been dealt. If the Caracal had first strike, the Pridemate would trigger and gain an additional counter before regular damage resolved, and would thus deal 7 damage.

- A player casts Nimbus Wings on Hero of Iroas. The opposing player interrupts with Nullify. Does Hero of Iroas get the +1/+1 counter or not? Is there a similar scenario where the answer is different?

The Hero would gain the counter. Heroic triggers when a spell targeting a creature with heroic is cast, not when the spell resolves; even if the spell is countered, the heroic ability has still gone on the stack and resolved. A different situation would be with something with constellation, such as Eidolon of Blossoms. Constellation triggers when an enchantment enters the battlefield; if you play an enchantment and it's countered, it goes directly to the graveyard, doesn't enter the battlefield, and thus doesn't trigger constellation.

[sonofzeal]

First scenario, 6 damage. Combat damage happens, as part of that lifelink happens and so you gain 1 life. Then triggers get put on the stack (Such as pridemate getting a +1/+1 counter), then once those have resolved (you can cast instants here) you move to the next step, which is technically end of combat, but very rarely do people bother with doing things separately on that step so it moves to the second main phase. If the carcel had first strike, there's two combat damage phases, so the trigger would be put on the stack after the first (strike) combat damage phase, then regular damage happens after that so pridemate does 7 damage.

Hero of Iroas gets a +1/+1 counter because the heroic trigger is on casting the spell, not on resolution. In fact, if there wasn't the counterspell, hero would get the counter, THEN the aura would be attached. This is occasionally relevant in situations I can't remember right now.

Good, the game got it right on both. I wasn't sure, as it seemed a little counter-intuitive, but the way you explain it works.


What if, instead of Nullify on the Nimbus Wings, the opposing player had cast Shock on Hero of Iroas? Does the +1/+1 counter go on, then Shock resolves, then the Nimbus Wings goes on?

[ChaosOS]

Good, the game got it right on both. I wasn't sure, as it seemed a little counter-intuitive, but the way you explain it works.


What if, instead of Nullify on the Nimbus Wings, the opposing player had cast Shock on Hero of Iroas? Does the +1/+1 counter go on, then Shock resolves, then the Nimbus Wings goes on?

Stack goes First In Last Out. Upon casting Nimbus Wings, stack is

Heroic Trigger
Nimbus Wings

By casting shock, you make it

Shock
Heroic Trigger
Nimbus Wings


However, you could intentionally decide to let the heroic trigger resolve, then cast a spell before the aura does. That would be relevant with cards like Smite the Monstrous and some aura that granted say hexproof or indestructibility.

[sonofzeal]

Stack goes First In Last Out. Upon casting Nimbus Wings, stack is

Heroic Trigger
Nimbus Wings

By casting shock, you make it

Shock
Heroic Trigger
Nimbus Wings


However, you could intentionally decide to let the heroic trigger resolve, then cast a spell before the aura does. That would be relevant with cards like Smite the Monstrous and some aura that granted say hexproof or indestructibility.

Ah - so, in the previous instance, the stack is.....

Nullify
Heroic Trigger
Nimbus Wings

....with the effect of Nullify sending Nimus Wings to the graveyard but without removing Heroic Trigger from the stack?

You can see why I'm a little confused. :P

[ChaosOS]

Ah - so, in the previous instance, the stack is.....

Nullify
Heroic Trigger
Nimbus Wings

....with the effect of Nullify sending Nimus Wings to the graveyard but without removing Heroic Trigger from the stack?

You can see why I'm a little confused. :P

Yes, that is the stack

[Duck999]

Ahhh, the stack, the most annoying thing for new players. Anyone have a good way to explain it? The way I explain it is just imagine that all the cards are stacked upon each other in the order they are played, then they happen from the top to bottom. So, like the cards are stacked... in a stack... like the stack... yeah.

[ChaosOS]

Basically just literally stacking cards is the best way to remember first in last out.

[Duck999]

Basically just literally stacking cards is the best way to remember first in last out.

First in last out is also useful, but yeah, I always explained it as just stacking cards.

[sonofzeal]

Stacks are easy. It's just when there's things like Heroic Trigger activating before the thing that's causing it to activate that can be a bit counter-intuitive. In the above situation, it was me playing Nullify to counter an Aura comming down, and being caught off guard when the Heroic Trigger still went off even though the Aura had been countered.

Here's one more compound question.....


I have a Battering Krasis (2/1 evolving) on the field. I play a Paragon of the Eternal Wilds. Does the Krasis become 3/2 or 4/3?

Let's say, next turn, the Krasis is at 4/3 and, with PotEW still out, I play a Primal Huntbeast. Does the Krasis evolve or not?

[Duck999]

It would evolve first, then get the +1/+1, making it a 4/3. When you play Primal Huntbeast, it would not evolve since it's power/toughness is 4/3, and the Huntbeast is only a 3/3.

[sonofzeal]

It would evolve first, then get the +1/+1, making it a 4/3. When you play Primal Huntbeast, it would not evolve since it's power/toughness is 4/3, and the Huntbeast is only a 3/3.

I'm pretty sure the game got that wrong, then. It got the +1/+1, then checked for evolving. I might be wrong though.

As for the latter, I guess the fact that Huntbeast comes in as a 4/4 due to PotEW doesn't count, only the card's listed value? What about Kicked cards like Jorga Warcaller? If I paid 9 mana for Jorga, would he trigger evolving or not? And is it the same for Hydras with mana costs of "XG"?

Again, I appreciate you guys putting up with my barrage of newbie questions. :)

[IthilanorStPete]

It would evolve first, then get the +1/+1, making it a 4/3. When you play Primal Huntbeast, it would not evolve since it's power/toughness is 4/3, and the Huntbeast is only a 3/3.

This is incorrect. As soon as Paragon enters, Battering Krasis immediately becomes a 3/2; Paragon's effect is a continuous effect which applies immediately, it's not a trigger. Krasis's evolve ability checks 3/2 against 2/2 and fails to trigger. Similarly, with the Huntbeast, the Huntbeast enters play as a 4/4, triggering evolve; there's no point where Huntbeast is on the field but not receiving the effect from Paragon.

I'm pretty sure the game got that wrong, then. It got the +1/+1, then checked for evolving. I might be wrong though.

As for the latter, I guess the fact that Huntbeast comes in as a 4/4 due to PotEW doesn't count, only the card's listed value? What about Kicked cards like Jorga Warcaller? If I paid 9 mana for Jorga, would he trigger evolving or not? And is it the same for Hydras with mana costs of "XG"?

Again, I appreciate you guys putting up with my barrage of newbie questions. :)

Warcaller and Hydras will generally trigger evolve; because the ability says "enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters", they have those immediately. A creature with a triggered ability that added counters (such as Oran-Rief Survivalist), would use only its base stats to check for evolve.

[Duck999]

I suppose that makes some sense. It enters the battlefield at the same time it gives everything else +1/+1. The game can be confusing sometimes.

[IthilanorStPete]

A good thing to know is how to identify activated abilities, triggered abilities, and static abilities:
-Activated abilities are written as "Cost: Effect". When they're activated, the cost is paid immediately, the ability goes on the stack; when the ability resolves, the effect happens.
-Triggered abilities (generally) begin with "At...", "When...", or "Whenever...". Whenever the trigger event occurs, the ability goes on the stack; when the ability resolves, the effect happens.
-Static abilities are written as statements that don't fit one of the above categories. Their effects are active continuously whenever the permanent with the ability is on the battlefield (or the card is in the appropriate zone for abilities that have effects in other zones).

[sonofzeal]

So "static" (not a game term, but you know what I mean) is faster than "instant"?

[Boci]

So "static" (not a game term, but you know what I mean) is faster than "instant"?

Yes. All "instant" means is that it can go on the stack at any time, before another action already on the stack resolves, but if the action isn't on the stack it cannot be beaten.

[IthilanorStPete]

Yes. All "instant" means is that it can go on the stack at any time, before another action already on the stack resolves, but if the action isn't on the stack it cannot be beaten.

What Boci said. "Static ability" actually is a game term, but it's part of the rules, not on the cards.

[Boci]

Also another thing that a new player may be unclear on (it caught me out) is that once blockers are declared, killing the blocking creature doesn't prevent the attacking creature from being counted as blocked.

[sonofzeal]

Also another thing that a new player may be unclear on (it caught me out) is that once blockers are declared, killing the blocking creature doesn't prevent the attacking creature from being counted as blocked.

...a fact which makes things like Bloodflow Connoisseur all the more fun to play with. Especially with Act of Treason. I figured that one out for myself!

[ChaosOS]

One thing I will say is that static abilities can still interact in interesting effects. Case in point, Rite of Reflection (kicked) targeting an opposing Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.

So, Rite of Replication resolves, leaving me with 5 elesh norn tokens and you with the original

State based actions are checked simultaneously. All of your creatures get -10/-10 and the non Elesh Norn creatures you have get +2/+2 from yours. Simultaneously, all of my creatures get +10/+10 if they're not my Elesh Norn Tokens, and my Elesh Norn tokens get +8/+8. Any creatures that are below 0 toughness go to the graveyard. However, at the same time I have to pick one of my tokens and sacrifice the rest due to the legendary rule.

Next round of State Based Actions. Now, your Elesh Norn is most likely dead due to the -10/-10, unless she was equipped or had auras or something else going on. That leaves me with one elesh norn, giving my other creatures +2/+2, and all of your creatures -2/-2.



Another example of fun rules interaction is how the Scapeshift deck in modern gets kills. Have 7 lands out, cast Scapeshift, shifting into Valakut plus 6 mountains (Those are often dual type lands such as Steam Vents or Stomping Ground). All of the mountains see each other entering the battlefield, getting 18 points of damage in. Often people take some damage from their lands, so that's often lethal. If you need more damage just get more lands out or finish with lightning bolts or something.

[Androgeus]

So "static" (not a game term, but you know what I mean) is faster than "instant"?

I wouldn't say faster as that implies they take time to apply. They just are.

Another example of fun rules interaction is how the Scapeshift deck in modern gets kills. Have 7 lands out, cast Scapeshift, shifting into Valakut plus 6 mountains (Those are often dual type lands such as Steam Vents or Stomping Ground). All of the mountains see each other entering the battlefield, getting 18 points of damage in. Often people take some damage from their lands, so that's often lethal. If you need more damage just get more lands out or finish with lightning bolts or something.

Note that if I destroy on of the mountains before the damage is dealt then you won't deal any damage. This is because of the if in the middle of Valakut's ability (an inverting if) is checked both when it triggers and when the ability resolves.

If you really want to get in to fun with triggers, play with warp world.

[Ninjaman]

So "static" (not a game term, but you know what I mean) is faster than "instant"?

Then allow me to blow your mind by telling you that layers mean some static effects are "faster" than others. But this isn't something you are expected to know.

That reminds me of a question I saw once:
You have two opalescence, a humility, a life and limb,a Xenograph on saproling and a blood moon. They have all been put into play with warpworld, meaning you choose the timestamps. What are the possible outcomes?

[Androgeus]

Then allow me to blow your mind by telling you that layers mean some static effects are "faster" than others. But this isn't something you are expected to know.

Layers is more to do with the order to apply effects rather than timings (well ok timestamps still effect things). I just felt that using faster implied that static effects took time to apply.

If I had the time I would sort your humility/opalescence question, but I don't.

[Sith_Happens]

[Snip]

I think this is a good place for a variation on the stock "RPG problems" advice: Do the other players in question actually mind you (potentially) winning all the time? If not, do your worst.

I've been playing DotP 2015, as I mentioned earlier, and I want to make sure I'm not learning things the wrong way.

As far as I know Duels of the Planeswalkers is completely rules-correct (barring bugs, of course), though it's still useful to know why certain situations turn out the way they do.

If I had the time I would sort your humility/opalescence question, but I don't.

[Lhurgyof]

I think this is a good place for a variation on the stock "RPG problems" advice: Do the other players in question actually mind you (potentially) winning all the time? If not, do your worst.

They don't seem to really mind. They understand that my decks are generally better than theirs. The only problem is that they'll get burned out after a couple stomp fests and stop playing for the day.

With the current spoilers for Commander 2014 up, I have a question about running a certain card in a deck of mine (spoiled for spoilers):

Spoiler: It's a secret to everybody

Show

I have a Grixis "SuperVillains" EDH deck, and I was wondering if the new Ob Nixilis would be good in it. Teferi is pretty much auto-included due to how well he works with superfriends, and I like that Ob can produce pretty beefy blockers for himself.

Here's the deck list, any advice based on the spoiler or not would be helpful: E. V. I. L.

[Ninjaman]

Here's the deck list, any advice based on the spoiler or not would be helpful: E. V. I. L.

Tibalt seems bad. Also I noticed that you are playing bloodgift demon but not phyrexian arena.

[Lhurgyof]

Tibalt seems bad. Also I noticed that you are playing bloodgift demon but not phyrexian arena.

Yeah, Tibalt has always been meh. I could probably pull him for one of the C14 cards.

I need creatures, as I have very few in the deck. Or are you saying I should have both ? If so, sure, but what should I pull?

[Ninjaman]

Yeah, Tibalt has always been meh. I could probably pull him for one of the C14 cards.

I need creatures, as I have very few in the deck. Or are you saying I should have both ? If so, sure, but what should I pull?

Why do you need creatures in your superfriend's deck? Both tezz's seem cuttable. Sarkan doesn't seem very good. Lily of the dark realms seem bad. Pyromaster and nalaar are both weak. Decree of Annihalation I am not sure of. Burnished Hart is just bad. Cut Scroll Rack because you don't play fetches. Cut Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief. Cut Dragonmaster outcast. Cut Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind.

I would add:
Five lands
Phyrexian Arena
Blue sun's zenith
More card draw
In Garruk's Wake

[Sith_Happens]

>Planeswalkers that can be commanders.

I actually feel like that should be the general rule, but there are a lot of 'walkers that would be hella OP as commanders.

[Ninjaman]

>Planeswalkers that can be commanders.

I actually feel like that should be the general rule, but there are a lot of 'walkers that would be hella OP as commanders.

Which ones would be OP?