Belkar vs. Durkula (D&D combat)

[Breccia]

Obviously, in the comic (or any other story) a combat can go however the author wants. We also know that Belkar is a particularly cunning little bastard, able to use the environment to his advantage in a fight (as shown in his fight against Miko). I'm not asking about either of those.

My question is 100% pure rules based (and, therefore, not especially relevant to the story -- but I am curious). Based on what we know/think we know about both Belkar and Durkula in a 3E setting, including their game stats and magic items, is it reasonably possible for Belkar to reduce Durkula to 0hp (misting him) in a fair one-on-one match in an environment with minimal wood, fire, and holy items? By "fair" I mean "one of them does not murder the other in his sleep" basically, but both sides can use whatever abilities they have access to, with no outside interference from any bystanders.

My gut says "no" but I haven't played 3E in a while. Can a ranger/barbarian hybrid take out a vampire cleric of equal level (and therefore, the vampire having a higher ECL) in a cage match?

[oppyu]

From what little I've gleaned of D&D by reading the comic, Belkar can't hurt not-Durkon and he doesn't have the will saves to defend himself from any of Durkon's vampire or cleric abilities. It'd be Belkar v. Malack round two.

[Keltest]

From what little I've gleaned of D&D by reading the comic, Belkar can't hurt not-Durkon and he doesn't have the will saves to defend himself from any of Durkon's vampire or cleric abilities. It'd be Belkar v. Malack round two.

Don't forget, Belkar has his fancy psionic knife now.

That said, Durkon is a caster and Belkar is hilariously poorly optimized, beyond even "this is more fun than killing people with save-or-die spell" level. Unless Durkon literally just sat there and let Belkar stab him to death, Im pretty sure Durkon would win hands down.

[factotum]

Even before he was made a vampire, Durkon was one of the more powerful members of the Order--he's a cleric, which gives him powerful offensive and defensive spells, while also being at least as good at fighting as Belkar and better armoured to boot. Now he's a vampire, and gains massive damage reduction and a bunch of other abilities? The fight probably wouldn't even get to the third round!

[Reddish Mage]

We already know Durkula can one-shot Belkar with the vampire dominate ability. However, even if Belkar had acquired immunity, even if Durkula wasn't using his instant kill (or close to it) touch spells, even if he didn't use his fancy magic items or his active vampire abilities (any of which by themselves means automatic win). Durkula still has fast healing and potentially still has more hit points (hit dice increase to d12 though Durkula lost Durkon's enormous con bonuses), an increased armor class, and hits real hard with the vampire strength bonuses.

SO even if Durkula choose to face Belkar in a purely physical conflict Durkula would win. With Durkula's active vampiric and clerical abilities (either by themselves) it is not even a contest. Belkar will likely go down within two rounds.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It is very unlikely, from a game standpoint alone, that Belkar could win. We have seen how well the High Priest of Hel can dominate him, and that is only one of the many advantages he has over Belkar. Belkar is pretty weak, aside from his collision dagger.

[137beth]

To stand a chance, Belkar would need to gain better resistance or immunity to mind-affecting effects, and immunity to ability drain/negative levels. Neither of which he had by the end of book five, and one of which he did not have even more recently.

[Nomrom]

Would the whole rest of the OOTS together even be able to take on Durkula? He was possibly the strongest individual member even before he got all of his vampire bonuses.

[Keltest]

Would the whole rest of the OOTS together even be able to take on Durkula? He was possibly the strongest individual member even before he got all of his vampire bonuses.

That depends. Are they strategizing at all? If Belkar stays out of the fight (or even more radically, stays back and hurls rocks or something) I think they have a fair chance.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Would the whole rest of the OOTS together even be able to take on Durkula? He was possibly the strongest individual member even before he got all of his vampire bonuses.

It depends on the situation. If the High Priest of Hel takes them by surprise and takes out some of the Order, then probably not. If they take him by surprise, they stand a much better chance. At an even standoff the High Priest of Hel might be able to dominate some of them, in which case the Order will probably go down.

[Zweisteine]

Well, the first step is obviously to refer to their statblocks, courtesy of the latest Class and Level Geekery thread.

Sticking just with Durkon's Dominate ability, I think Belkar's fate is sealed.

The DC should be about 19 (10+14HD/2+2 charisma). Belkar's will save isn't go to be anything over +4, because of his low wisdom and multiclassing (max base will save for a level-16 Rng 11+/Brb 1+ is +5).

So Durkon will win in one or two rounds, unless Belkar gets lucky and kills him first (which would require a critical hit).

But we already knew that.

Other tricks Durkon could pull include Antilife Shell, which would keep Belkar at range.

He could cast and hold Harm, and start making slam attacks. If he hits, Belkar would have to make a will save (DC 20-23) to take half of 140 damage, and he would gain 2 negative levels no matter what. He could do the same thing more slowly with inflict spells, while healing himself as necessary.

As most fights, this follows the general pattern of primary caster beats non caster.

[factotum]

So Durkon will win in one or two rounds, unless Belkar gets lucky and kills him first (which would require a critical hit).

Aren't undead immune to critical hits?

[colanderman]

Belkar's a chef. He of all PCs should be able to find a creative way to gain a couple rounds head-start vs. Durkula using some specially-prepared garlic.

[Gray Mage]

Aren't undead immune to critical hits?

Yes, they are.

As for if the rest of the order joins in, we do know someone that has a sword enchanted to do more damage on undead and knows a technique to stop spellcasters.

[dancrilis]

It depends on the strategy.

For example - Durkon is in the open and Belkar is hidden.

Turn 1: Belkar has acquired a wand of greater dispel magic and hits Durkon's staff with it, suppressing it (rolls a 3), Belkar is still hidden.
-Durkon has no idea his staff is useless.
Turn 2: Belkar hits Durkon with the wand of greater dispel magic removing his protection spell, Belkar is still hidden.
-Durkon is panicking and tries to use his staff.
Turn 3: Belkar hits the staff again for good measure, he is still hidden.
-Durkon is ash.

Rules wise there is nothing preventing Belkar from doing this (or a variant) and while he might need to get lucky to roll as needed there is nothing preventing it from working rules wise.

If Belkar attacks with his currently known items - and directly - he is likely dead.

[Reddish Mage]

Yes, they are.

As for if the rest of the order joins in, we do know someone that has a sword enchanted to do more damage on undead and knows a technique to stop spellcasters.

If you're wondering what Greenhilt vs. Durkula is going to be like, my guess is you are going to find out pretty soon!

[Gray Mage]

It depends on the strategy.

For example - Durkon is in the open and Belkar is hidden.

Turn 1: Belkar has acquired a wand of greater dispel magic and hits Durkon's staff with it, suppressing it (rolls a 3), Belkar is still hidden.
-Durkon has no idea his staff is useless.
Turn 2: Belkar hits Durkon with the wand of greater dispel magic removing his protection spell, Belkar is still hidden.
-Durkon is panicking and tries to use his staff.
Turn 3: Belkar hits the staff again for good measure, he is still hidden.
-Durkon is ash.

Rules wise there is nothing preventing Belkar from doing this (or a variant) and while he might need to get lucky to roll as needed there is nothing preventing it from working rules wise.

If Belkar attacks with his currently known items - and directly - he is likely dead.

We have no evidence that Belkar has any ranks in UMD, though.

If you're wondering what Greenhilt vs. Durkula is going to be like, my guess is you are going to find out pretty soon!

That's my guess too. I'm really looking foward to it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

We have no evidence that Belkar has any ranks in UMD, though.

Another problem is that Greater Dispel Magic is too high of a level to put into a wand.

[137beth]

It could be put into a staff or scroll, though. But UMD is not a class skill for either barbarian or ranger.

[dancrilis]

We have no evidence that Belkar has any ranks in UMD, though.

Absence if evidence is not evidence of absence (although I will concede that in general usage it is better to assume an absence unless evidence is provided to the contrary). Rules wise he might have it for the purpose of this conversation. It is irrelevant anyway as I will mention below*.

Another problem is that Greater Dispel Magic is too high of a level to put into a wand.

Fair enough 'Dispel Magic' would work just as well. It is irrelevant anyway as I will mention below*.

*Yes what either of you said was correct but I did cover myself with the following quote.

Rules wise there is nothing preventing Belkar from doing this (or a variant)

Even if the core scenario I listed would not work - a variant could.
If the wand restrictions are the core problem for example we can give him a ring instead and accomplice the same.

The initial questions were:

Based on what we know/think we know about both Belkar and Durkula in a 3E setting, including their game stats and magic items, is it reasonably possible for Belkar to reduce Durkula to 0hp (misting him) in a fair one-on-one match in an environment with minimal wood, fire, and holy items? By "fair" I mean "one of them does not murder the other in his sleep" basically, but both sides can use whatever abilities they have access to, with no outside interference from any bystanders.

Can a ranger/barbarian hybrid take out a vampire cleric of equal level (and therefore, the vampire having a higher ECL) in a cage match?

The answer to this depends on 'fair' (for example some might say that a man to man close combat fight between them is not 'fair', others might say that anything sneaky is not 'fair', others might say that Dominate is not 'fair', etc etc), and on 'cage' (assuming the universe/multiverse/omniverse - as you like - is a closed system, it could be viewed as a cage).
So assuming that Belkar is allowed to prepare for the fight against a probably much more dangerous opponent (in the interest of fairness) than it is possible rules wise for Belkar to destroy the Durkon's body.

In fact even without preparation if the fight is fair than Belkar will have a fair chance, assuming you define a fair fight as one where both combatants have a fair change.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Absence if evidence is not evidence of absence (although I will concede that in general usage it is better to assume an absence unless evidence is provided to the contrary). Rules wise he might have it for the purpose of this conversation. It is irrelevant anyway as I will mention below*.


Fair enough 'Dispel Magic' would work just as well. It is irrelevant anyway as I will mention below*.

*Yes what either of you said was correct but I did cover myself with the following quote.

Even if the core scenario I listed would not work - a variant could.
If the wand restrictions are the core problem for example we can give him a ring instead and accomplice the same.

The initial questions were:


The answer to this depends on 'fair' (for example some might say that a man to man close combat fight between them is not 'fair', others might say that anything sneaky is not 'fair', others might say that Dominate is not 'fair', etc etc), and on 'cage' (assuming the universe/multiverse/omniverse - as you like - is a closed system, it could be viewed as a cage).
So assuming that Belkar is allowed to prepare for the fight against a probably much more dangerous opponent (in the interest of fairness) than it is possible rules wise for Belkar to destroy the Durkon's body.

In fact even without preparation if the fight is fair than Belkar will have a fair chance, assuming you define a fair fight as one where both combatants have a fair change.

I will grant you that if Belkar has ranks in UMD then it is there is a way he could defeat Durkon (although on the ship it probably wouldn't be too hard to find shadow in time). However, since I doubt he has any ranks or that he has access to many magic items, I do not find it to be a plausible outcome. (I also doubt this problem will be resolved by the use of magic items, but that's outside of the scope of this thread).

[factotum]

Yeah, I've no doubt that it's *possible* within the rules for Belkar to somehow cheese his way to victory in a fight with Durkula. I just find it vanishingly unlikely he would ever do so because (a) it probably requires him to possess skills and abilities he never bothered with or (b) requires him to be considerably more intelligent and prone to planning ahead than he has ever been seen to be. In any "realistic" fight, Durkula wins convincingly.

[dancrilis]

Agreed in principle - I do think Belkar has more low cunning than he is given credit for and might be able to manage something sneaky, and I would given situations for how these might play out ... but frankly after reading my above post I am too shocked at both my spelling and grammar to bother.

[Reddish Mage]

It could be put into a staff or scroll, though. But UMD is not a class skill for either barbarian or ranger.

The fact is that UMD is the most powerful skill even if it is cross-class but it's highly implausible to think Belkar put skill points towards this since we've seen no evidence and his character concept bends towards being laughably non-optimized, for those not in the know of D&D let's review the traits made fun of in the comic: Belkar is a halfling ranger with wisdom as a dump stat (meaning he can't use spells, his most powerful class feature), laughable spot checks and a single rank in survival.

Yeah, I've no doubt that it's *possible* within the rules for Belkar to somehow cheese his way to victory in a fight with Durkula. I just find it vanishingly unlikely he would ever do so because (a) it probably requires him to possess skills and abilities he never bothered with or (b) requires him to be considerably more intelligent and prone to planning ahead than he has ever been seen to be. In any "realistic" fight, Durkula wins convincingly.

I think its worse than you are allowing. Belkar can't win even with cheesing in anything resembling a real fight.

[factotum]

I think its worse than you are allowing. Belkar can't win even with cheesing in anything resembling a real fight.

He quite handily beat Crystal one-on-one--admittedly, she's an assassin not a fighter, so hardly well optimised for the sort of fight she was in at that point, but he beat her in a straight-up fight without a whiff of cheese to be seen. He was also able to hold off Crystal and Bozzok fighting together, and considering we know Bozzok had a few levels on him, that's no mean feat. Therefore Belkar is at least *somewhat* competent as a fighter.

[Murk]

I think the problem here indeed is that the character of Belkar doesn't really follow the straight D&D rules. He's horribly unoptimized and probably not a good fighter. However, in the comic he is still respected as a warrior and able to decapitate enemies without a problem.

It seems to me there is something hidden about Belkar that no one knows yet. How else is he able to adventure? (He was even able to do it solo!) He is probably already an epic level ranger just pretending to be lower level. Or a demigod? The brother of the MitD? SNARL JUNIOR?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think the problem here indeed is that the character of Belkar doesn't really follow the straight D&D rules. He's horribly unoptimized and probably not a good fighter. However, in the comic he is still respected as a warrior and able to decapitate enemies without a problem.

It seems to me there is something hidden about Belkar that no one knows yet. How else is he able to adventure? (He was even able to do it solo!) He is probably already an epic level ranger just pretending to be lower level. Or a demigod? The brother of the MitD? SNARL JUNIOR?

A lot of the people he beats up are either relatively peaceful or a lower-level than he is. It is interesting that he was able to hold off Bozzok, though.

[Keltest]

A lot of the people he beats up are either relatively peaceful or a lower-level than he is. It is interesting that he was able to hold off Bozzok, though.

Well, at the end of the day, in spite of his equipment choice, Bozzok is at least primarily a rogue, correct? While he is obviously more optimized towards melee than Haley is, he still isn't meant to be fighting a fair fight.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, at the end of the day, in spite of his equipment choice, Bozzok is at least primarily a rogue, correct? While he is obviously more optimized towards melee than Haley is, he still isn't meant to be fighting a fair fight.

That's true. However, Bozzok is at a fairly high level (at least 19) so I'd expect to do a little better.

[Keltest]

That's true. However, Bozzok is at a fairly high level (at least 19) so I'd expect to do a little better.

Belkar may have had cleric dude cast some spells on him before going out to combat.