New thread about the tripping, cleaving, weapon damage and special abilities

[ShurikVch]

From the Simple Raw Thread for 3.5 #28:

Spoiler: #961

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Me:
Q 439

How will interact Curling Wave Strike with Cleave/Great Cleave/Supreme Cleave, or Mighty Cleaving weapon?

Spoiler: #962

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Andezzar:
A 439

There is no special interaction. Since you cannot do damage with Curling Wave Strike, you cannot trigger cleave. If you deal enough damage to trigger a cleave, you can use the extra melee attack(s) to perform a trip.

Spoiler: #964

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Me:
Q 439a

What if it was Flaming/frost/shock/corrosive weapon?
You hit (touch attack), deal d6 energy damage, target drops (prone), Cleave triggers?...

Spoiler: #965

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Andezzar:
A 439a

No. The Corrosive/Flaming/Shocking WSAs only add extra damage. On an attack that does not deal damage you do not get extra damage. Causing a creature to be prone is not enough to trigger a cleave

Spoiler: #966

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Me:
RAW, please.
Weapon deal extra energy damage "on a successful hit".

Spoiler: #967

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Andezzar:

Trip is clearly a successful hit, otherwise target wouldn't be tripped.

The point is that a trip attack does not deal zero damage but null damage. Just as you cannot boost the CON of a CON Ø creature you cannot add damage to an attack that deals Ø damage. Ø +1d6 does not compute.

Spoiler: #968

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Me:
"on a successful hit".
Hit is successful
Prove me wrong

Spoiler: #969

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Curmudgeon:
The successful hit is only the first of two requirements. The second is that it delivers extra or bonus damage. From the Glossary:

bonus

A positive modifier to a die roll. In most cases, multiple bonuses from the same source or of the same type in effect on the same character or object do not stack; only the highest bonus of that type applies. Bonuses that don't have a specific type always stack with all bonuses.

If there is no damage die roll, you cannot modify it with extra damage.

Spoiler: #971

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Me:
Fine-sized dagger have no damage dice.
Do you mean flaming fine-sized dagger wouldn't burn at touch?

Spoiler: #972

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Fax Celestis:
Correct. It would never inflict damage to modify.

In any case, this is getting out of the scope of this thread. Make a new thread, please.

So, as Fax Celestis said, I made a new thread.

What's you think about this stuff?

And, also, what's the point of existence of fine-sized daggers, if it even impossible too use it's special abilities?

[OldTrees1]

Fine sized daggers have undefined damage if they exist(existence in not guaranteed)

[ShurikVch]

Fine sized daggers have undefined damage if they exist(existence in not guaranteed)

Existence of one fine-sized dagger is just a matter of successful Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12 check

Also, I, personally, think, "here is no damage die roll, you cannot modify it with extra damage" is just a blah-blah-blah. Undead can modify their touch attack with negative energy

[Fax Celestis]

Existence of one fine-sized dagger is just a matter of successful Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12 check

Also, I, personally, think, "here is no damage die roll, you cannot modify it with extra damage" is just a blah-blah-blah. Undead can modify their touch attack with negative energy

Really? That's interesting. Show me.

[OldTrees1]

Existence of one fine-sized dagger is just a matter of successful Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12 check

Also, I, personally, think, "here is no damage die roll, you cannot modify it with extra damage" is just a blah-blah-blah. Undead can modify their touch attack with negative energy

Creation of a fine sized dagger is just a matter of a Craft check if fine sized daggers exist. The undefined(not the same as 0) damage die makes existence not guaranteed(weapons with defined weapon damage dice do exist even if not created).

As for the touch attack, are you sure that is a modification and not the defined damage dice of race/template X's touch weapon?

[Fax Celestis]

Creation of a fine sized dagger is just a matter of a Craft check if fine sized daggers exist. The undefined(not the same as 0) damage die makes existence not guaranteed(weapons with defined weapon damage dice do exist even if not created).

As for the touch attack, are you sure that is a modification and not the defined damage dice of race/template X's touch weapon?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/...htm#weaponSize They appear on this table.

[ShurikVch]

As for the touch attack, are you sure that is a modification and not the defined damage dice of race/template X's touch weapon?

Ghost without the Corrupting Touch, or Draining Touch...

[OldTrees1]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/...htm#weaponSize They appear on this table.

I see the "-" on the table. I count that as undefined rather than 1d0.

Ghost without the Corrupting Touch, or Draining Touch...

Hmm.

[ShurikVch]

Really? That's interesting. Show me.

Spoiler

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[Fax Celestis]

Attack
A ghost retains all the attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect creatures that are not ethereal.

Corrupting Touch (Su)
A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack deals 1d6 points of damage. Against ethereal opponents, it adds its Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls. Against nonethereal opponents, it adds its Dexterity modifier to attack rolls only.

Not "deals an additional +1d6 damage". Not "deals an extra 1d6 damage". Just "deals 1d6 points of damage". Fixed value, not based upon size or other modifiers. Flat 1d6.

[ShurikVch]

Not "deals an additional +1d6 damage". Not "deals an extra 1d6 damage". Just "deals 1d6 points of damage". Fixed value, not based upon size or other modifiers. Flat 1d6.

Because usually touch attack doesn't deal any damage. Come on, it's just a touch!
But even if ghost in question had in life some damage-dealing touch attack, he can't use it on non-ethereal enemies.

[Fax Celestis]

Because usually touch attack doesn't deal any damage. Come on, it's just a touch!
But even if ghost in question had in life some damage-dealing touch attack, he can't use it on non-ethereal enemies.

Correct, which is why this ability is phrased as it is.

[ShurikVch]

What's about the Shocking Net?

This idea is hardly new - not just entangle the enemies, but zap them with electricity as well!

But net, as described, doesn't do any damage. Does it mean shocking special ability wouldn't work?

What's about the Balor's flaming whip? Yes, it do nonlethal damage... To someone with less than 3 natural AC! Even small Ice Paraelemental wouldn't be burned by it (despite it's Cold Subtype!) because of 4 natural AC

[Fax Celestis]

Negated damage is not the same thing as "deals no damage".

[Zilzmaer]

What's about the Shocking Net?

This idea is hardly new - not just entangle the enemies, but zap them with electricity as well!

But net, as described, doesn't do any damage. Does it mean shocking special ability wouldn't work?

I've never heard of a shocking net; source?

What's about the Balor's flaming whip? Yes, it do nonlethal damage... To someone with less than 3 natural AC! Even small Ice Paraelemental wouldn't be burned by it (despite it's Cold Subtype!) because of 4 natural AC

A balor's whip is not a common whip; it follows different rules, and is described as doing such.

A balor’s +1 flaming whip is a long, flexible weapon with many tails tipped with hooks, spikes, and balls. The weapon deals bludgeoning and slashing damage, in addition to fire damage.