How to stop my players' metagaming from ruining the game

[hobbitkniver]

I have been the DM for my friends who were new to DnD many times without issue, but I recently began to DM for people who know the rules quite well. They constantly complain any time I deviate from the rules and constantly use their knowledge of the game in inappropriate ways. It has become problematic as they won't accept the prices that npcs pay for items and instead insist they should get 100% book price when selling all magic items. Any time I create an item from scratch, they try to estimate the price based on similarities to items from books. It has gotten to the point where they will challenge me on the monster's attack modifiers, AC, and other abilities. One player seems to memorize the stats of monsters in is free time and convinces the other players that I am cheating them. They whine about the difficulty even though they crush every encounter and have never been even remotely in danger.

They refuse to roleplay, complain about too much combat, start texting if I spend time on story, and have no useful skill ranks between them. I just can't figure out what they want. My biggest problem as a DM is that I'm too easy on the players, so it's pretty shocking to me that there's so much complaining about difficulty. I have never had so much issue with people not accepting the numbers I give for items, monsters, ect.

Is there any way to give them what they want or do they just want to complain about something? I suspect the latter may be the case because I got complaints for making them split 200 gold between four people and it doesn't get easier than that. Either way, I'm sure the playground has some useful or at least interesting thoughts on the issue of metagaming and players that think they know the world (custom setting) better than the DM.

[Demidos]

Show them this post (or maybe a slightly kinder rant), then ask them what they want?

Alternately, maybe let one of them DM?

Edit: Alternately, reskin monsters so as to make them unrecognizable -- e.g., use a displacer beast's statblock for the next guy they fight, but make him look humanoid so they don't know exactly what he can do. If they can't know what a monster's stats will be, perhaps they'll stop trying to metagame their way through it.

[Kesnit]

It has become problematic as they won't accept the prices that npcs pay for items and instead insist they should get 100% book price when selling all magic items.

Point out that selling price is 50% market value.

It has gotten to the point where they will challenge me on the monster's attack modifiers, AC, and other abilities. One player seems to memorize the stats of monsters in is free time and convinces the other players that I am cheating them.

I had a player who did that, so I reskinned everything. Orcs were green army men. An ooze was Jell-o. A balor became Cthulhu.

complain about too much combat,

What are their complaints (other than it is "too hard")?

start texting if I spend time on story,

Ban phones/iPads/laptops from the table.

and have no useful skill ranks between them.

Give them skill challenges.

[Blackhawk748]

Wow, your players seem a tad bitchy. I had PCs like this once, needless to say i no longer DM for them. Its hard enough DMing when the players LIKE what your doing, when they complain about everything you just stop caring.

[nedz]

Sounds like a play-style mismatch.

Maybe they like kick-in-the-door style gaming ? At least that's what it sounds like from your description. You could try something old-school like the Tomb of Horrors — only don't let on or someone is likely to read the module

You could run home-brew monsters — just re skinning a stat block is the easy bake method here.

Run an Aboleth, or anything which uses Illusions, so that they don't know what they are up against — until it's too late.

[hobbitkniver]

Alternately, maybe let one of them DM?

I'm not sure why, but they really don't like this idea. I think they are probably afraid of being responsible for such a tough crowd.

What are their complaints (other than it is "too hard")?

It's mostly the frequency of combat, but they don't actually try to participate in any other aspects of the game.

Wow, your players seem a tad bitchy. I had PCs like this once, needless to say i no longer DM for them. Its hard enough DMing when the players LIKE what your doing, when they complain about everything you just stop caring.

This is absolutely where I'm headed. Writing for sessions has become such a chore.

[Arbane]

Play something else? Like a really rules-light game like Fate or Risus.

or Paranoia...where knowing the rules is treason.

[Roncorps]

I don't think that will help you, but I always listen to what my players say about the rules and etc. but I make a point about "Eh, I'm the king here so last word is mine". They are happy with it, we talk about rules frequently and sometimes, it"s change my view of it.

So, from your story, it's more because they are a bunch of "I-wanna-have-it-all-my-way" than cooperative players.

[Petrocorus]

They constantly complain any time I deviate from the rules and constantly use their knowledge of the game in inappropriate ways. It has become problematic as they won't accept the prices that npcs pay for items and instead insist they should get 100% book price when selling all magic items. Any time I create an item from scratch, they try to estimate the price based on similarities to items from books. It has gotten to the point where they will challenge me on the monster's attack modifiers, AC, and other abilities. One player seems to memorize the stats of monsters in is free time and convinces the other players that I am cheating them. They whine about the difficulty even though they crush every encounter and have never been even remotely in danger.

Emphasis mine.
You should remember them that you're the DM. You make the rules. The books explicitly say the DM has the right to do anything and everything and you can houserule whatever you want and change whatever stat of whatever monsters, NPC, items, etc.
If they are not fine with that, then they should read the PHB and the DMG again.

They refuse to roleplay, complain about too much combat, start texting if I spend time on story, and have no useful skill ranks between them. I just can't figure out what they want.

They don't want roleplay, they don't want combats, they don't want story, they don't have skills so they don't want non-combat challenge, apparently. So basically they want nothing? Do they want mystery / investigation style game? Have they told you anything about what they want?

My biggest problem as a DM is that I'm too easy on the players, so it's pretty shocking to me that there's so much complaining about difficulty. I have never had so much issue with people not accepting the numbers I give for items, monsters, ect.

Is there any way to give them what they want or do they just want to complain about something? I suspect the latter may be the case because I got complaints for making them split 200 gold between four people and it doesn't get easier than that. Either way, I'm sure the playground has some useful or at least interesting thoughts on the issue of metagaming and players that think they know the world (custom setting) better than the DM.

Sadly, my first thought was to tell you to find other players. Not very constructive, i know.
I think you should ask them what kind of game they want. You won't solve anything without that.

[Honest Tiefling]

Remember, you can lead a dragon to royalty, but you cannot make it eat them. Your players just seem uninterested in story. Don't take it personally, just some people wanna have fun in that way.

I would comment on what I see as bad manners, but I say tackle that issue first. Tell them how you wish to DM ( presumably, with story, in-character knowledge, etc.) and see if a comprimise can be reached. Ask them what they like in a game. And I don't mean this rudely, but perhaps a multiplayer video game or a more combat focused system would appeal to them.

The reason I say tackle that issue first is that, hopefully, if they see you want a more RD centric game they'll stop metagaming. They might not see an issue if they think of it as a fun fantasy miniatures war game.

Sadly, some people just have incompatible desires.

[Tragak]

"Metagaming" isn't the problem here.

If you don't talk to your players out-of-game (what kind of game does everybody want to play, can everybody help each other [NOT everybody put the whole burden on you, everybody help each other] to get what everybody else wants out of the same game), then in-game band-aids (redesigning items, monsters, encounters) are not going to fix anything.

[Troacctid]

Maybe your players would be happier with a different system.

[Galen]

One player seems to memorize the stats of monsters in is free time and convinces the other players that I am cheating them.

This is a line that cannot be crossed. Either he recants his accusations entirely, or you will no longer DM for him. There can be no middle ground. If the trust relationship between player and DM is this much broken, one of them must walk.

[emeraldstreak]

I have been the DM for my friends who were new to DnD many times without issue, but I recently began to DM for people who know the rules quite well. They constantly complain any time I deviate from the rules and constantly use their knowledge of the game in inappropriate ways. It has become problematic as they won't accept the prices that npcs pay for items and instead insist they should get 100% book price when selling all magic items. Any time I create an item from scratch, they try to estimate the price based on similarities to items from books. It has gotten to the point where they will challenge me on the monster's attack modifiers, AC, and other abilities. One player seems to memorize the stats of monsters in is free time and convinces the other players that I am cheating them. They whine about the difficulty even though they crush every encounter and have never been even remotely in danger.

They refuse to roleplay, complain about too much combat, start texting if I spend time on story, and have no useful skill ranks between them. I just can't figure out what they want. My biggest problem as a DM is that I'm too easy on the players, so it's pretty shocking to me that there's so much complaining about difficulty. I have never had so much issue with people not accepting the numbers I give for items, monsters, ect.

Is there any way to give them what they want or do they just want to complain about something? I suspect the latter may be the case because I got complaints for making them split 200 gold between four people and it doesn't get easier than that. Either way, I'm sure the playground has some useful or at least interesting thoughts on the issue of metagaming and players that think they know the world (custom setting) better than the DM.

Frankly, you should throw the towel on this group and let someone else DM or leave it altogether.

That being said, if you really want to continue I suggest you move your setting/campaign to a New World exploration one; they'll be the first explorers. No infrastructure to rely on, no NPCs economy, no nothing. Everything around is unexplored. And so on.

[Petrocorus]

Maybe your players would be happier with a different system.

If that was not for the "too many combats" thing, i would have advised Dungeonquest.

[GreyBlack]

I have been the DM for my friends who were new to DnD many times without issue, but I recently began to DM for people who know the rules quite well. They constantly complain any time I deviate from the rules and constantly use their knowledge of the game in inappropriate ways. It has become problematic as they won't accept the prices that npcs pay for items and instead insist they should get 100% book price when selling all magic items. Any time I create an item from scratch, they try to estimate the price based on similarities to items from books. It has gotten to the point where they will challenge me on the monster's attack modifiers, AC, and other abilities. One player seems to memorize the stats of monsters in is free time and convinces the other players that I am cheating them. They whine about the difficulty even though they crush every encounter and have never been even remotely in danger.

They refuse to roleplay, complain about too much combat, start texting if I spend time on story, and have no useful skill ranks between them. I just can't figure out what they want. My biggest problem as a DM is that I'm too easy on the players, so it's pretty shocking to me that there's so much complaining about difficulty. I have never had so much issue with people not accepting the numbers I give for items, monsters, ect.

Is there any way to give them what they want or do they just want to complain about something? I suspect the latter may be the case because I got complaints for making them split 200 gold between four people and it doesn't get easier than that. Either way, I'm sure the playground has some useful or at least interesting thoughts on the issue of metagaming and players that think they know the world (custom setting) better than the DM.

Please refer your players to Dungeon Master's Guide pg. 6, section: Adjucating.

When everyone gathers around the table, you're in charge. That doesn't mean you can tell people what to do outside the boundaries of the game, but it does mean that you're the final arbiter of rules within a game.

If they cannot accept this utter indictment, then I suggest telling them this:

[atemu1234]

I mostly DM for new players, so I can't really help with the bit about extreme knowledge of the game.

But I do ban cellphones; I only allow things like Ipads if they have PDFs of D&D stuff on it. I use the caller method, where all the group's actions are given to one of the players and that player tells me.

If you have a problem with a player or two, tell them what they're doing wrong. Tell them you're the DM, point out Rule 0, show it to the entire group to get your point across. Don't be mean, but tell them that quite frankly they need to pay attention to story and not complain about odd monsters. I homebrew enough of my stuff and add class levels to most monsters so the PCs rarely know what's coming. I don't know if this works here, but it's the closest I can advise.

[Tohsaka Rin]

They won't roleplay, and they don't like combat. Story puts them to sleep.

....

WHAT.

That's 90% of the game (hyperbole, I know, but still) gone.

Sit them down, and ASK them WHAT they want out of the game. DO NOT let them avoid the question. DO NOT start the session until you get an answer. Don't be rude, don't raise your voice unless they repeatedly talk over you. Just make your position clear and firm. Don't give them wiggle-room to worm out of this.

There's literally nothing to DO otherwise in the game. If they either repeatedly refuse, or just give vague answers, tell them that until they can actually tell you what there is in the game for them to do that interests THEM, DnD is cancelled.

Then leave the table.

Can't play sports if nobody will take the field. Game called on account of zero sportsmanship.

[137beth]

They won't roleplay, and they don't like combat. Story puts them to sleep.

....

WHAT.

That's 90% of the game (hyperbole, I know, but still) gone.

Sit them down, and ASK them WHAT they want out of the game. DO NOT let them avoid the question. DO NOT start the session until you get an answer. Don't be rude, don't raise your voice unless they repeatedly talk over you. Just make your position clear and firm. Don't give them wiggle-room to worm out of this.

There's literally nothing to DO otherwise in the game. If they either repeatedly refuse, or just give vague answers, tell them that until they can actually tell you what there is in the game for them to do that interests THEM, DnD is cancelled.

Then leave the table.

Can't play sports if nobody will take the field. Game called on account of zero sportsmanship.

Emphasis mine.
I don't even think that that was a hyperbole. Certainly as far as what the rules are about it is not. Maybe you could get a rules-heavy 3.5 game with minimal combat by using almost exclusively rules from the DMGII, Stronghold builder's guide (3.0), a couple sections of complete scoundrel, and....maybe some 3rd party stuff (101 additional skill uses? Ultimate campaign?) But even a majority of CScoundrel is focused on combat.
If the players dislike combat, and don't want to roleplay, and don't like the story...it's going to be hard to enjoy 3.5.

[Petrocorus]

Emphasis mine.
I don't even think that that was a hyperbole. Certainly as far as what the rules are about it is not. Maybe you could get a rules-heavy 3.5 game with minimal combat by using almost exclusively rules from the DMGII, Stronghold builder's guide (3.0), a couple sections of complete scoundrel, and....maybe some 3rd party stuff (101 additional skill uses? Ultimate campaign?) But even a majority of CScoundrel is focused on combat.

And what is not focused on combat is about solving OOC challenges with skills, deductions and roleplay. That they don't like either.

If the players dislike combat, and don't want to roleplay, and don't like the story...it's going to be hard to enjoy 3.5.

Indeed, given that there almost nothing left then.

[Psyren]

They won't roleplay, and they don't like combat. Story puts them to sleep.

....

WHAT.

That's 90% of the game (hyperbole, I know, but still) gone.

Sit them down, and ASK them WHAT they want out of the game. DO NOT let them avoid the question. DO NOT start the session until you get an answer. Don't be rude, don't raise your voice unless they repeatedly talk over you. Just make your position clear and firm. Don't give them wiggle-room to worm out of this.

There's literally nothing to DO otherwise in the game. If they either repeatedly refuse, or just give vague answers, tell them that until they can actually tell you what there is in the game for them to do that interests THEM, DnD is cancelled.

Then leave the table.

Can't play sports if nobody will take the field. Game called on account of zero sportsmanship.

This. You're really at an impasse until you know, clearly, what they want.

[Arcanist]

Alternately, maybe let one of them DM?

This is the best thing to do. Ask them to DM for a few games or set up a DM rotation and have everyone take control of the story for a moment. During these times, take the time to note the kinds of stories that they run and when you feel you have enough information, run a story that appeals to them.

Setting up rules like "no phones" or "no OOG talking" is unnecessary, but if you feel they might help instead of hurt your game, by all means impose them. Good luck and enjoy your game.

[Yahzi]

What they want is to not get away with sh*t. But you can't ask them this, because they don't know.

What they really want is to be scared for their character's lives, engaged with their character's fates, concerned about their character's NPC friends. They want the world to be believable and dangerous so that when they do win, it's rewarding.

The way I would deal with a group like this would be a sandbox. First, reduce the rules down to a subset you feel comfortable with. Ban a few spells if you want, or even classes. During play, if they correct you, just make a note of it for next time - the rules don't really matter as long as they don't change. Create a world instead of a plot (although you can put a few plots in the world if you want, but remember, the plot is for them to survive and prosper, nobody cares about whatever drama your NPCs have going on). Don't panic - there are good guides on sandbox worlds and all you need at the start is one town and one dungeon. Start them out at 1st level. Roll all dice in the open. Above all enforce the rule of no take-backs: once a result has been announced, that's it. You tell them the AC, they roll, if they say they missed then they missed. Full stop. If they forgot a bonus then fine they can use it next time. And then... let them die. Over and over again, until they redefine the game as "surviving a single night."

Once they get used to the idea that 1st level characters die at the drop of a dice, they'll start thinking about what they want to do rather than just "kick door fight." When they come up with creative solutions (flood the dungeon to kill the monsters) let them work once, but then adjust the next encounter so it doesn't (the goblins on the 2nd level opened a drain so their level didn't get flooded).

They'll either quit on you because of the iron discipline, or they'll rediscover why they liked RPGs in the first place. Either way is a win for you.

[Melcar]

Show them this post (or maybe a slightly kinder rant), then ask them what they want?

Alternately, maybe let one of them DM?

Edit: Alternately, reskin monsters so as to make them unrecognizable -- e.g., use a displacer beast's statblock for the next guy they fight, but make him look humanoid so they don't know exactly what he can do. If they can't know what a monster's stats will be, perhaps they'll stop trying to metagame their way through it.

I like this idea of mixing up the stats blocks...

What I would do was tell them your feeliings and concern. Tell them that you are not there for them to have fun, your are all gathered so ALL of you can have fun, and the way the DM has fun is delivering interesting stories and challenges. And tell them that you do not like their meta-gaming, and that it is your prerogative as a DM to determine everything in the campain and that you do not what to hear any crap about it. If they do not respond well to this, then ask them what they would like, and see if its something that can be combined with your wishes. If not, then I guess there is not much to do.

Show them this post if all else fails.

[Chester]

What surprises me the most about this is the fact that "veteran players" (or whatever you'd call them) can't separate player knowledge from character knowledge (they talk openly about monster stats).

I had a somewhat noob player in our campaign who would look up the stats of every monster we fought. A simple "hey man, that's kind of not cool" was all it took to stop that. Seems like that won't work with this group, though.

We use Google Hangout with the Roll20 app. You're not having fun with this group; online options provide you with a wider outlet to find players who appreciate the game.

Move on.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Players that memorize a game's rules usually want that skill of theirs to matter.
In short, when you got munchkins, you can't satisfy them with easy combat or with homebrewed combat because their munchkinry doesn't come into play. Much like you need a good story to satisfy roleplayers, you need hard, by-the-rules encounters to satisfy munchkins.

2) Players that are rules-focused dislike it immensely when the rules change.
This doesn't apply only to DnD. Lots of card game players, board game players and chess players have specific sets of rules they prefer to play in, and many of them won't even discuss the idea of rules-changes. It might even happen in athletics, on occasion.

3) Players with the above issues often don't realize that they have them.
They either don't see something wrong with this or can't express what is wrong with the game, exactly. They'll often get annoyed and bitchy without realizing why the game doesn't satisfy them.




Solutions:

A) Find another DM. Not everyone can satisfy players of this type and still enjoy DMing.

B) Use rules-exact, hard, non-straightforward combat. Play to their strengths and they'll love you for it. For example, sic them a few half-black dragon firetrolls. In order to win, they'll have to realize normal damage is useless (using in-game or metagame skills) then find a way to overcome the issue. Or sic them a succubus disguised as a damsel in distress, or flirty barmaid or quest-giver that uses her social bonuses plus special abilities to defeat them - unless they find her out first.

C) Use a plot hook that will draw in munchkins. High-stealth thief to defeat their low perception and steal a couple of their magic items while they sleep will immediately cause outrage in such a group - especially if you do it by-the-rules instead of fiat, AND write down the relevant rolls to prove it weren't by fiat. See how they immediately hunt the thief for stealing from them and incidentally follow the plot.

[Astralia123]

I never GMed such a tough group, but I have been on the complaining side for numerous times.

It is the case where PCs are not satisfied, but are possibly unaware on what aspects they are unsatisfied. You are possibly not doing well enough, and some of the PCs (problematic type) may wish to gain extra advantage by complaining or arguing the rules, or they may just wish to show how they are good at the rules.

You may wish to, say, change to some more exciting plot to interest them. They already show a lot of signs of uninterested.
And about problematic PCs, I tend to point out directly that some their expectations are not realistic, or some behaviours are inappropriate. Complaining and unnecessary rule arguing are on the list. I'm not totally against rules arguing, but I am usually the winner.
As advice to GMs who are not that of a lawyer type, I would say, I'm-the-boss type of claim doesn't quite impress the rules lawyers, but you should make a point on "common sense/fun first".

[Kelb_Panthera]

Swat them with a steel folding chair and say "No! Bad players! Quit your whining!" Make sure to emphasize each of those exclamation points with another swat.

What? ..... It's no less reasonable than they're being.

Seriously though, you need to be firm with them. Demand that they stop whining about what you're doing wrong, you heard them the first X times, and tell you what they -do- want.

Then inform them, if you're so inclined, that the rules are what -you- say they are and if the book disagrees then -it- is wrong. If they can't deal with that, they're free to walk away or run the game themselves.

I prefer to cleave pretty close to RAW, myself, but the rules aren't the important thing here. The rules -have- to take a back seat to the DM's authority over the game. If they want you to take on the responsibility of building a world, populating it, and planning plots and quests then they -have- to cede you the authority to adjudicate those things.

[Melcar]

I have tried being the complaining one, but that was when I had built my character upon a rule. When that rule was not followed my whole build fell. I was annoyed or angry that the DM disregarded the rule, because that made me feel that he disregarded my character, feelings and well the point and power of my character was reduced to zero.

This could have been solved by some more openness between DM and players when first starting out. A discussion about what the players feel is the right amount of rules vs. fiat and how much RAW vs. RAI, and finally how much homebrew can be or should be added by DM and players alike.

It has taken me 10 years of playing before I figured this out... but it also took some years and different campaigns before it became an issue. When we started out we knew so little and knew none of the loops, no TO and knew none of the cheese we know now... only then did it actually become a problem for us... luckily we are in a good process of turning this around... we have tried our version of Tippyverse, so to speak. (And I mean that not in a derogatory way).

[animewatcha]

What is the cr for invisible spell Disjunction automatic reset spell trap? If they want to continue pulling this crap, one mysteriously goes off. Since they care about the rules so much, they should know where to find every single item for caster level ( item's will save can wind up larger than wielder's right based on caster level ? ). You kick back and read a book while they look. If they refuse to look, item is destroyed. Spellbook types likely won't like this since boccob's spellbook ( 1k pages and likely their spellbook ) is a magic item and if it goes poof, so do the spells within. If they spend the time doing other things, their stuff gets destroyed. As per the rules of disjunction spell, they have to roll for EVERY magic item.

If they get fussy from their stuff being harassed too many times, walk out the room and A if it your house ) spend the time to catch up on your shows or B if you are at a friends ) start up the car to go home.