Blood Bowl in the Playground II: It's Going To Be Elves Again, Isn't It?

[Silfir]

Right! If that's how it's going to be, you just made The List!

*takes out a small notebook and the stub of a pencil, carefully and painstakingly writes down the word 'S-I-L-L-F-I-R' and puts both away*

....I have a list now, by the way.

I'm hurt you didn't have one already, and I wasn't on it. Back at the Amazon training fields, we've put up sacks of potatoes, soaked them in beer and stapled mops to them and are now practicing our hitting on them two hours per day. If you were wondering about the shrill screams of delight from the stands as Angtrek was turned into goop, wonder no more; of course our scouts weren't going to miss an opportunity to watch a team of Orcs doing what they're best at to people* that deserve it done to them.

* - I'm stretching the limits of the word a bit here.

Please forgive me if this next bit sounds a little bit like a soapbox, but I feel that I have a significant perspective on this issue. Not only is it my team that these contested inducements has been used against, but after playing Brother Oni I immediately replaced my dead Runner and another player's SPP racked up an advance, so my TV is just as high as it was before - I'm 60pts clear of the next closest rival, and well over 400pts above the current lowest in the League, whom I have yet to play - and as such I would suspect to see Bad Habits and the rest to be used against me in the future (Particularly now, as it has been publically pointed out that it's something that works.... )

And to that, I say: Fine.

I don't have many rerolls, and I know that it's a weakness of my team. I'm fine with that - in fact, I congratulate Firedaemon33 and Brother Oni for taking advantage of it, because it was certainly unexpected. Quite frankly, I'm happy to leave an open invitation to any of my opponents to use whatever inducements that they like, because I'm just here to enjoy playing Blood Bowl, which is even better when my opponent gets to one-up me sometimes and thus enjoy THEMSELVES too.

That being said, I appreciate that some of you don't like them because they're not "core", and that's fine too. To that, I suggest that we don't worry about any kind of hard- or soft-ban on anything, because that will just split the 'board into the For and Against factions, so someone is going to get upset whichever way it goes.
Rather, I recommend the traditional rule that we used to use when I regularly played Blood Bowl as the board game: Just ask your opponent before you play, and make sure that they don't mind. If not; fair enough, they want core Blood Bowl and a 'traditional' game. If they DO let you use them, then clearly they want mayhem and craziness, which are also traditional to Blood Bowl!

So, let's all shake hands, dust off, be friends and get back to the far more important issue of kicking Elves in the teeth, shall we?



Speaking of which.... Dibs!

Look at that, a dwarven coach speaking words of wisdom... There a beer shortage going on?

At any rate, it's a measured response to this issue that I can only get behind.

Also glad to see that the Axebeardaxe family is keeping up the tradition tradition unperturbed!

[Wraith]

I'm hurt you didn't have one already, and I wasn't on it.

You want to go on the list again? Huh? You can end up on it again if you want!

Back at the Amazon training fields, we've put up sacks of potatoes, soaked them in beer and stapled mops to them and are now practicing our hitting on them two hours per day.

....Well, this isn't even remotely fair, because I don't think I can respond to that without being hit with a Forum ban for outrageous sexism against ladies.

Well... I say "ladies".....

At any rate, it's a measured response to this issue that I can only get behind.

I see what you did there.... and I don't like it.

If you were wondering about the shrill screams of delight from the stands as Angtrek was turned into goop, wonder no more.....

Somewhere out there, a mother Dwarf is crying into her luxurious, silken beard. I hope you're proud of yourself, you monster.

[Brother Oni]

Apparently, I utterly underestimated Brother Oni's cold-hearted disregard for the suffering of others.

We's orcs are made fer fightin' an' winning!

I've mentioned my feelings on fouling before (and yes, I am aware that I am the only person in the league with a Dirty Player on my team!) but in this particular instance we'd each spent 14 turns flailing around the pitch, botching GFI rolls left, right and center. I didn't think that my luck would allow me to do any damage, while at the same time probably getting sent off for my trouble. I was out of substitutes, and really wanted to keep the numbers advantage. Hence, the traditional offensive with the Trollslayer.

I'm of the opinion that fouling is a legitimate part of the game, although late game fouling for the sake of crippling the opposing team going forwards is just spiteful and mean, especially since you don't get SPPs for it.

Brother Oni played somewhat carefully and conservatively

*Stands up*

(a compliment, before you ask)

*Sits down again*

Rather, I recommend the traditional rule that we used to use when I regularly played Blood Bowl as the board game: Just ask your opponent before you play, and make sure that they don't mind. If not; fair enough, they want core Blood Bowl and a 'traditional' game. If they DO let you use them, then clearly they want mayhem and craziness, which are also traditional to Blood Bowl!

I feel that this is the best approach going forwards.

Speaking of which.... Dibs!

Khorak the Minotaur does not respect the Dibs system

Get in line lads - I get the first crack at him, unless the High Elves manage to do it next week... nope, can't keep a straight face while saying that.

[LCP]

Get in line lads - I get the first crack at him, unless the High Elves manage to do it next week... nope, can't keep a straight face while saying that.

Oh, I thought Luzahn was talking about a player in the Daggers.

[Luzahn]

Oh, that was referring to the Daggers blitzer - If i had an elf with the Space Corps, I'd be overjoyed. Well, half the team would want to "purge the xenos filth," but it would be great while it lasted.

Still, I assumed Brother Oni was just talking about murdering my teams in general, which I actually can't in good conscience object to. I mean, my entire philosophy up until now has been "murder it with dark elves."

[LCP]

So Khorak does get first stomp

[Thufir]

I should mention that I may have overstated my anger in my previous post, and I'm certainly not annoyed enough by this to quit the league mid-season, but I wanted to make it abundantly clear from the off that I am not OK with this.

That being said, I appreciate that some of you don't like them because they're not "core", and that's fine too. To that, I suggest that we don't worry about any kind of hard- or soft-ban on anything, because that will just split the 'board into the For and Against factions, so someone is going to get upset whichever way it goes.
Rather, I recommend the traditional rule that we used to use when I regularly played Blood Bowl as the board game: Just ask your opponent before you play, and make sure that they don't mind. If not; fair enough, they want core Blood Bowl and a 'traditional' game. If they DO let you use them, then clearly they want mayhem and craziness, which are also traditional to Blood Bowl!

This is the most reasonable solution, though I would be in favour of a blanket ban once we reach the playoffs, since that's serious-time for the people who want to win.
Also I'm 99% certain their inclusion in the Legacy League was an oversight, so please don't use them there.

[Brother Oni]

Oh, that was referring to the Daggers blitzer - If i had an elf with the Space Corps, I'd be overjoyed. Well, half the team would want to "purge the xenos filth," but it would be great while it lasted.

I thought you meant your ISC STR2 Guard Blitzer got a stay of execution with a ridiculous good level up.

Still, I assumed Brother Oni was just talking about murdering my teams in general, which I actually can't in good conscience object to. I mean, my entire philosophy up until now has been "murder it with dark elves."

It's not me that you should be worried about - my team has managed 1 fatality and 8 casualties, while the Sun's Children has 4 fatalities and 13 casualties. Even Measured Response has more fatalities and casualties than me.

So Khorak does get first stomp

Awww.

Give him a couple of good kicks from me then.

[LCP]

Should've asked, actually - Luzahn, when are you free?

[Luzahn]

I will be free Wednesday afternoon and the weekend.

[LCP]

I think afternoon in the States is probably some ungodly hour over here. I'm busy Sunday; Saturday then?

[Luzahn]

Should work, although I can probably manage to play early enough on Wednesday that it would only be around 8-10 PM in the UK or something.

[LCP]

OK then, let's try Wednesday.

[Maethirion]

Maethirion: I'm free most evenings. Monday OK? What times GMT are you available?

Sorry I missed Monday, I'm free this coming evening GMT, and tomorrow evening as well if either of those work for you?

[LCP]

Afraid I'm going to be AFK this evening. I'm scheduled to play Luzahn tomorrow, but if the times work out I could do two games in a row.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Question for the thread: other than watching Wraith's videos, is there a way I can watch y'all's games without purchasing the game through Steam?

I taught myself to play with the DS version of the game, but I suspect that its AI was rather limited, and I'd like to see the actual games to understand just how badly it'd go for me were I to try and join.

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[Silfir]

It looks like Blood Bowl: CE will be on 60% sale until the 24th. It's been on 80% at least once, though, and goes on sale pretty often, so can't blame you for waiting.

At any rate, unless like Wraith's the games were recorded manually I fear you're out of luck. Now that you mention it, though, I don't see the harm in recording my own next match. I'm not sure if live commentary wouldn't harm my concentration too much, but I can definitely add some after the game is over.

Though this reminds me; UnnamedProtag, when will your Ulthuan Army Team be available for a beating fair and sportswomanlike contest?

[Luzahn]

Question for the thread: other than watching Wraith's videos, is there a way I can watch y'all's games without purchasing the game through Steam?

I taught myself to play with the DS version of the game, but I suspect that its AI was rather limited, and I'd like to see the actual games to understand just how badly it'd go for me were I to try and join.

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

There are a few youtube videos of Blood Bowl matches that could be used to get a sense of how the game works. cKnoor's stuff is an obvious choice; he's actually created a sort of guide/let's play of matches against humans.


I'll add that the best way to learn the game is to pick it up yourself; I'm usually up for a match in the open league upon request, and I'm sure others are as well.

...Speaking of which, I need to go make some Lizards for that.

[Thufir]

Question for the thread: other than watching Wraith's videos, is there a way I can watch y'all's games without purchasing the game through Steam?

I also have some videos from a while back of my matches back in the first two seasons. I've been meaning to get back to that, though I've given up on the idea of making videos of all my matches and figure I'll just pick specific ones I want to talk about in future. In any case, here's the playlist of all the ones I did get done.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There are a few youtube videos of Blood Bowl matches that could be used to get a sense of how the game works. cKnoor's stuff is an obvious choice; he's actually created a sort of guide/let's play of matches against humans.


I'll add that the best way to learn the game is to pick it up yourself; I'm usually up for a match in the open league upon request, and I'm sure others are as well.

As I said, I'm mostly aware of the rules and gameplay (although not the stranger team-specific rules like vampire's bloodlust), so I (foolishly?) think I'm well covered there. I gave a try at watching let's plays on youtube but the search was remarkably poor in its quality of results - I like playing dwarves, and I specifically searched for them, and yet somehow I was never shown Wraith/The Illusionist's videos.

The videos I did watch fell into "take too much time explaining minutia I already know or don't care about" (a well-recommended video turned out to be 20 minutes of renaming your team players) or, on the other extreme, actual games but with some ridiculous moves such as attempting the pass/GFI/tackle before positioning of the players, and other quite questionable behaviours. I may not be a great player, but even I know "first do all the moves that don't require rolling dice". I don't have the patience to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

I figure, though, that if I watch your videos and I have questions, there is a very good chance that I can get answers from you guys. And I do know that I will see PvP gameplay, which I can't guess otherwise from the video titles, more often than not.

-----

In any case, thank you guys. I'll check out the links provided tonight.

Grey Wolf

[Wraith]

My videos were pretty much inspired by the Youtuber, TotalBiscuit The Cynical Brit.

About 18 months ago he played a short league against some of the Gamestation guys as a Chaos Dwarf team (so, reasonably similar to my Dwarfs), against the likes of Dodger (who played Amazons), AngryJoe (Necromantic) and Jesse Cox (Wood Elves).
While he's a veteran player and most of his opponents were/are newbies, there's a lot of inspiration in there for me since the matchups are kinda similar to several in the GitP League. Similarly, all the matches are recorded live so while there is some banter going on the players are still having to obey the time limit, and so there's more actual playing (if badly) than there is prattling.

I figure, though, that if I watch your videos and I have questions, there is a very good chance that I can get answers from you guys.

Happy to help, if I can

[Thufir]

or, on the other extreme, actual games but with some ridiculous moves such as attempting the pass/GFI/tackle before positioning of the players, and other quite questionable behaviours. I may not be a great player, but even I know "first do all the moves that don't require rolling dice". I don't have the patience to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

I can't promise my videos will be entirely free from that sort of stuff, everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but I try to point it out when it happens. Also you're unlikely to get Dwarf advice from my videos, as I don't like them much, and the video of my one match against Dwarfs doesn't work for some reason.
And I'd second Luzahn's suggestion of just giving it a go. I'm also generally up for open league matches (keep meaning to actually pursue some, but then there's always something else I want to be doing...)

Edit @^: Pretty sure TB was part of my inspiration as well. I enjoyed watching his gamestation blood bowl videos, though personally I wouldn't be too keen to try recording commentary live. I like to concentrate while I'm actually playing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Happy to help, if I can

Actually, there is one question that has been preying my mind for the longest time: what is the purpose of the deathroller? Put another way, how should it be used? I expect I will be able to discern an answer from your videos, since it seems you field one, but it was the one standard dwarf piece I couldn't get in the DS version, so I have not had the chance to ever use it. My guess is that you use it to manufacture an opening for an easier first touchdown?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[Silfir]

Actually, there is one question that has been preying my mind for the longest time: what is the purpose of the deathroller? Put another way, how should it be used? I expect I will be able to discern an answer from your videos, since it seems you field one, but it was the one standard dwarf piece I couldn't get in the DS version, so I have not had the chance to ever use it. My guess is that you use it to manufacture an opening for an easier first touchdown?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

My recommendation for any questions of this type is BBTactics. Here is the article on the Deathroller found on the site, but there are tons more about the individual teams and most of their players, as well as general ones about individual skills or the game in general.

The Deathroller, as far as I understand it, can bring with it a lot of hitting and injury power, is fairly reliable for a big guy because he can often block with three dice, has lots of useful skills both for blitzing and holding a position (a 7 Strength piece with Stand Firm is basically impossible to get out of the way), and the combination of Break Tackle and downright enormous Strength allows the Deathroller to relatively feasibly dodge into three or more tackle zones to blitz a ball carrier. On the other hand, he represents a lot of TV and is available for half the game at most unless you induce bribes.

[Brother Oni]

In addition to the above, that STR7 means the average STR3 player needs the help of 4 players to get even a 1 die block on the thing, plus it gets 3 dice blocks on everything except the heavy hitters of an opposing team. As Silfir said, Break Tackle with STR 7 means it can dodge into 3 tackle zones with only a 3+ (it should be a 2+ but the Dodge table doesn't go up that high), putting it on par with an AG6 playerelf, and it would still typically get a 2 dice block with no help whatsoever.

It basically goes wherever it wants, hitting whatever it wants. Its only weakness is its limited time on the pitch to pick up SPPs, which means its often lamenting the lack of Block even with 3 dice blocks.

As for going up against one, it wasn't too bad with the orcs' high AV, but a squishier team is liable to just get chewed up and to add injury to insult, just before the dwarves can score, the deathroller can also foul with a bonus to success and you won't care if he gets sent off as he's going off anyway.

I may not be a great player, but even I know "first do all the moves that don't require rolling dice".

It's knowing when to follow this rule and when not, that makes for the interesting plays - for example, do you run that free catcher forward and go for a pass, or do you risk dodging your ball carrier out of a TZ first for a handoff instead? Do you move up your players now to assist this block or wait until some pushing has gone on so they can move up to assist another more important block?
In general, I find it better to plan for unexpected failure (as mentioned in my last match report, I surrounded the loose ball with 4 of my 8 remaining players before even attempting to pick up the ball) even if it means giving up an advantage elsewhere. Teams with more skills and hence available rerolls, can opt for riskier but more advantageous plays (if my thrower was available, I would have moved more players up to try and break through instead).

[Maethirion]

Afraid I'm going to be AFK this evening. I'm scheduled to play Luzahn tomorrow, but if the times work out I could do two games in a row.

That would work from me. I'll be around from... 8ishpm to about midnight your time I think, so if you're fine with that, that seems the best way to do it.

[Wraith]

Actually, there is one question that has been preying my mind for the longest time: what is the purpose of the deathroller? Put another way, how should it be used? I expect I will be able to discern an answer from your videos, since it seems you field one, but it was the one standard dwarf piece I couldn't get in the DS version, so I have not had the chance to ever use it. My guess is that you use it to manufacture an opening for an easier first touchdown?

Due to Elf-related mishaps, I do not debut my Deathroller until Game 6 against Spartak's Blud Bowl Klub, so while you will eventually see one in action, the key word there is "eventually".

Those who have already talked about it have touched upon what a Deathroller does, so I'll try not to repeat too much of it. What I use mine for, generally speaking, is Solving Problems.

Problems such as, my opponent's Big Guy player.
With the exception of a Treeman, a Deathroller is the single strongest model in the game, and it virtually always gets 2-Dice-For blocks against Trolls, Ogres, Yhetees and even Blitzing Minotaurs.
This is a massive advantage for a Dwarf team. With any team you can take down Big Guys without a Big Guy of your own, but you usually need at least 3 of 4 players to do it reliably, and this can be a challenge when a) you have a pathetic movement and can't always get that many players together, and b) the Big Guy is there to be beating down your normal guys, so by the time you have 4 guys together you might need 1 or 2 more to account for injuries and Stunned players.
The Deathroller doesn't care about that - it eats other Big Guys, taking out what might be the most threatening opposing player by itself, leaving the rest of your team to wreak havoc while your opponent still needs to get together *5* of his s3 players to get even a Single-Dice Block.

Problems, also, such as Cages.
With s7 and Break Tackle, a Deathroller can pretty much go wherever it wants on a 2+, and when it gets there it can happily Blitz through a wall of 3 other players (assuming the Cage is made up of a 3x3 Blob) and still have a 2-Dice-For roll most of the time. Juggernaut will make up for not having Block, and if anything makes life even easier by turning Both Down rolls into a Push, shunting players aside and exposing the ball carrier more easily.

And, as I most often do, problems such as controlling small crowds of your opponents' players for long periods of time.
As I said above, it takes 5 players of s3 to create a Single-Dice block against a s7 player, so if your opponent decides he wants to take down your Deathroller he's going to have to commit half of his team to do it, or at least one of his special players like a Big Guy (or anyone with Dauntless, for that matter), so you're almost guaranteed to out-number them elsewhere.
And if they decide NOT to commit such a big force to taking out one player, then they are accepting that they're going to get one player knocked over per turn and (if you're really good at positioning) up to 4 others are going to find themselves in an enemy tackle zone and be unable to fight back, or risk a Dodge roll to get away, until the end of the drive.

So, yeah. Whatever your opponent has that you don't like, can be solved by liberal applications of Deathroller.

==============

Unrelated topic: Shishnarfne! When would you like to jump up and down on the faces of the Hammersjurg Destroyers, sir? I'm free for all this coming weekend.

[LCP]

The Rampagers have suffered their first loss of the Legacy League, losing to the Daggers 0-2. Ellllvvvves!

Ag5 Blitzer's still alive, for anyone who wants a pop at him.

[Luzahn]

The Rampagers have suffered their first loss of the Legacy League, losing to the Daggers 0-2. Ellllvvvves!

Ag5 Blitzer's still alive, for anyone who wants a pop at him.

Oh, we actually have two of those.

But yeah, he's doing quite well for himself. Snagged the MVP too. Really, a large part of my success there was a very lucky stab-injury on the enemy star player on the first turn. Losing that added strength meant my leaping horrors could pretty much go wherever they wanted. So long as they didn't snake-eyes.

[Thufir]

I was watching that match with all its AG5 Leap Guard ridiculousness, and going "How did I beat these guys with a starting Nurgle team again?"