Rules That Don't Make Sense

[nedz]

Spontaneous characters cannot use the Quicken Metamagic or any other meramagics that reduce casting times (effectively). A quickened Spell from a spontaneous caster would have a casting time of a Full-round Action.

Read my post again. Pay particular attention to the bold parts of the quotes.

[dascarletm]

Read my post again. Pay particular attention to the bold parts of the quotes.

Read the special part of your first quote.

[georgie_leech]

Read the special part of your first quote.

Their point is that bumping it up to a full round action shouldn't do anything, because full round casting times can be Quickened normally.

[dascarletm]

Their point is that bumping it up to a full round action shouldn't do anything, because full round casting times can be Quickened normally.

But the special clause is pointed out that the feat cannot be used spontaneously. Specifically sorcerer, bard etc. casting. That is all. End of discussion.

[Bloody Peasant!]

Can we talk about armored spellcasting? What the damn hell were they thinking making it so hard for arcane spellcasters to cast spells in armor? They did realize that mage armor lasts 1 hour/level, right? Sometimes it just amazes me how little understanding most of the developers had of their own system. Polymorph any object isn't broken but a sorcerer in full plate is?

And what about divine spellcasters? How come they get off scot free? Their spells have somatic components too. Or is this just another example of the developers figuring for some reason that divine magic is weaker than arcane magic because there aren't as many blasting spells?

[georgie_leech]

But the special clause is pointed out that the feat cannot be used spontaneously. Specifically sorcerer, bard etc. casting. That is all. End of discussion.

No one is saying it doesn't. We're saying it's a rule that makes no sense; it's a rule that exists that way "because we said so," rather than the logical outgrowth of the spontaneous metamagic rules that it portrays itself as.

[Extra Anchovies]

Can we talk about armored spellcasting? What the damn hell were they thinking making it so hard for arcane spellcasters to cast spells in armor? They did realize that mage armor lasts 1 hour/level, right? Sometimes it just amazes me how little understanding most of the developers had of their own system. Polymorph any object isn't broken but a sorcerer in full plate is?

And what about divine spellcasters? How come they get off scot free? Their spells have somatic components too. Or is this just another example of the developers figuring for some reason that divine magic is weaker than arcane magic because there aren't as many blasting spells?

I think part of the justification for divine casting having no ASF is that they also use the holy symbol as a focus, and are effectively casting their spells through the holy symbol. Most of the things like that (wizards don't wear armor, only rogues can find/disable traps, etc) are carried-over thematic decisions from earlier editions (and by earlier I mean White Box).

[Qwertystop]

So, ever want to force someone to waste a standard action in combat when trying to talk to you? Well just make an item with your name as the command word. It now takes a standard action to say your name.

So do we base this off of Ghost Sound (cheers) or Silent Image (fireworks)?

Actually, would it be cheaper to do an item of both together or of Minor Image?

[The Random NPC]

And what about divine spellcasters? How come they get off scot free? Their spells have somatic components too. Or is this just another example of the developers figuring for some reason that divine magic is weaker than arcane magic because there aren't as many blasting spells?

I remember hearing that divine casters got so many benefits because no one wanted to play them. They just kept giving them stuff until someone was willing to play it.

[torrasque666]

Probably because everyone originally thought of them as Heal-bots.

[Venger]

Can we talk about armored spellcasting? What the damn hell were they thinking making it so hard for arcane spellcasters to cast spells in armor? They did realize that mage armor lasts 1 hour/level, right? Sometimes it just amazes me how little understanding most of the developers had of their own system. Polymorph any object isn't broken but a sorcerer in full plate is?

And what about divine spellcasters? How come they get off scot free? Their spells have somatic components too. Or is this just another example of the developers figuring for some reason that divine magic is weaker than arcane magic because there aren't as many blasting spells?

it is impossible to overstate the designers' lack of basic competence with the system.

They didn't think people would cast mage armor that often since that's totally a slot you could use for awesome spells like burning hands, man

Yes, divine's "lack of blasting" (which really isn't true. even just in core, druid's one of the best lists to blast) was part of the reason they're allowed to ignore ASF.

They also thought that stealing/destroying/sundering/etcing the divine caster's holy symbol would be more of a thing than it is. as it stands, most people just sort of ignore/forget about it or agree not to mess with it in the interests of more enjoyable play, like not targeting the wizard's spellbook or not making the pally fall every 5 minutes.

I remember hearing that divine casters got so many benefits because no one wanted to play them. They just kept giving them stuff until someone was willing to play it.

this is because, as we all know from reading about the "playtesting" for 3.x, no one really did anything with their characters. the sample druid never wildshaped once, and the sample cleric essentially did nothing but healbot. if that's all the playtesters observed the class doing and thus assumed that's all it was capable of, they would wrongly infer that it didn't need an ASF-like mechanic as a balancing factor because it "didn't do anything" (read: inflict hit point damage on enemies)

[Amphetryon]

The designers also allegedly made divine casters OP by design, due to the experiences in previous editions where the divine caster's player was, essentially, the one who drew the proverbial short straw. They wanted to make the class more appealing on paper, on the theory that, in practice, the divine caster would still be relegated to the role of 'party Band-Aid' during combat. One might say they overshot the mark a bit. *cough*

[Gemini476]

Can we talk about armored spellcasting? What the damn hell were they thinking making it so hard for arcane spellcasters to cast spells in armor? They did realize that mage armor lasts 1 hour/level, right? Sometimes it just amazes me how little understanding most of the developers had of their own system. Polymorph any object isn't broken but a sorcerer in full plate is?

And what about divine spellcasters? How come they get off scot free? Their spells have somatic components too. Or is this just another example of the developers figuring for some reason that divine magic is weaker than arcane magic because there aren't as many blasting spells?

Magic-Users just straight-up couldn't use any armor without losing access to spellcasting. So casting arcane spells is difficult in armor, but doable for whatever reason I can't comprehend (it might have been some AD&D thing, I guess).

It's part of the general buff that spellcasting got to make playing as Wizards more attractive, along with Concentration checks, standard action spellcasting, scaling spell DCs and increased spell slots.


Clerics got away with wearing armor since they were pretty much just worse Fighting Men with some healing and buffing spells added in. (They're fighty because they were basically vampire hunters when Gygax first made them as opponents for his PC vampire. Also, take a look at some of the early Cleric spell lists. They're pretty dire.)


Druids, meanwhile, are Clerics with some added Magic User-y spells. Note the lack of decent armor.


So TRADITION, basically. Let's ignore the magical elves prancing around in armor casting spells for the moment.

[Astralia123]

Not sure if anyone ever mentioned it, but warlocks are restricted to be chaotic or evil, but there is no way to lose their class features, nor is there any text about they can't level up when they leave their alignment.

[Jeff the Green]

Not sure if anyone ever mentioned it, but warlocks are restricted to be chaotic or evil, but there is no way to lose their class features, nor is there any text about they can't level up when they leave their alignment.

Doesn't strike me as all that odd. I mean, the same can be said of the Blackguard, but there's plenty of examples in fiction of characters turning from the left-hand path and wielding the devil's own power against him. In fact, there's a prestige class devoted to that archetype, the Enlightened Spirit.

[Curmudgeon]

Not sure if anyone ever mentioned it, but warlocks are restricted to be chaotic or evil, but there is no way to lose their class features, nor is there any text about they can't level up when they leave their alignment.

There is, but it's a general rule rather than a class-specific one. Every time you level up you go through the Level Advancement sequence (Player's Handbook, pages 58-59). Step 1. Choose Class fails if you can't meet the requirements for the new level.

[SiuiS]

How are you doing that? That is, what D&D rule are you using to place the magic item on the creature?

The one in the DMG that says common sense and real world logic apply when there is no clear rule.

Also, how are they holding on to the dragon's back? We've already been over the grapple rules having a built in autofail by size categories, and grab is the first step?

Climb checks.

[Arbane]

A Pathfinder one:

Like any iron wall, this wall is subject to rust, perforation, and other natural phenomena. Iron created by this spell is not suitable for use in the creation of other objects and cannot be sold.

I understand they were trying to avoid Stupid Wealth Tricks, but I have to wonder WHY it's useless.

My best guess is that it's actually Fool's Iron, aka Gold Pyrite.

[Venger]

Climb checks.

Are we talking about climb checks now?

Climb, being rooted off your str mod, doesn't take anything else into account, giving elephants a pretty kickin' climb modifier.

[Curmudgeon]

The one in the DMG that says common sense and real world logic apply when there is no clear rule.

That's not exactly what it says.

The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does.

[TheCrowing1432]

Dread Necromancers are even weirder then Warlocks, technically they can only be evil.

But theres no way to lose class features even if you are good or neutral.

[Andezzar]

I don't see any problem with that. Why would you forget your abilities because you changed your outlook on life? Those two are not connected.

Paladins and similar classes are a bit different. They are written in a way that they do not acquire their abilities through hard work but are granted them from a higher power, so they can be taken away. What I don't understand about them is why skills are removed as well.

The multiclassing restriction of paladins and monks I don't understand at all.

[animewatcha]

I always thought it odd that you automatically fail grapple checks against an opponent 2 or more size categories larger than you.

Still reading through the thread. Where is this?

[Andezzar]

It's right there in the Grapple rules:

You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

[Astralia123]

I always thought it odd that you automatically fail grapple checks against an opponent 2 or more size categories larger than you.

I guess it is where you are meant to use climb and balance check instead.

[ShurikVch]

Seeing how the Nightbringers cannot use their CGU to make Spectres and Wraiths (both create spawn), it seems clear that the simple fact of being undead isn't enough for that connection to be recognized (at least by them). Unless you can show a quote to the opposite?

OK, I can accept it about the Nightbringer Initiate

But what's about the Pestilence domain?
Same situation: there is Create Greater Undead, but no Create Undead (or Animate Dead, for that matter)

Also, about the pestilence... Plague Spewer (undead from MM3) can

Vomit Rat Swarm (Su): As a full-round action, a plague spewer can spew forth a rat swarm (see Monster Manual page 239). It can do this up to four times per day.

Rat swarm... Swarm of living rats...

[Chronos]

With domain lists, things like that are understandable. There's only so much room on a domain list, and so often, there will be some spell that you'd rather put in instead. It's not like a class spell list where you can just include both.

And rats, even living ones, have always been associated with death and decay. It's a dead thing that has live rats living in it. Doesn't seem so odd to me.

[ShurikVch]

With domain lists, things like that are understandable. There's only so much room on a domain list, and so often, there will be some spell that you'd rather put in instead. It's not like a class spell list where you can just include both.

But ghouls, ghasts, and mummies are all spreading various diseases. (It's total a 3/4 total of Create Undead repertoire!)
Shadows, Wraiths, Spectres, and Devourers are not. (CGU - 0/4!!!)
Even Animate Dead may do better, because of Diseased Zombie from the Libris Mortis.

And rats, even living ones, have always been associated with death and decay. It's a dead thing that has live rats living in it. Doesn't seem so odd to me.

You see, those rats are not like a Summon Swarm spell or something, i. e. they are not disappearing with time. This ability is able create real living creatures!
Making of real living creatures from a thin air may be silly enough. But living creatures from undead...

[Kelb_Panthera]

@ShurikVch:

I see the hiccup in your thinking via rat-swarm spewing undead. The undead creature isn't creating anything. It's simply harboring a rat swarm inside it and forcibly ejects them as a special attack.

[ShurikVch]

@ShurikVch:

I see the hiccup in your thinking via rat-swarm spewing undead. The undead creature isn't creating anything. It's simply harboring a rat swarm inside it and forcibly ejects them as a special attack.

Maybe, as fluff.
But as far as crunch go, captured and restrained Plague Spewer can 4/day give source of sustenance for some subterranean tribe
Also, "kill all" attacks, such as Blasphemy doesn't kill rats inside, and DoT effects (such as being on Black Sand) are not affect them too
And, finally, Huge+ creature which died from the PS's Plague, "rises as a plague spewer in 1d4 days", even if it doesn't touch a rat in whole life, an was buried in airtight sealed sarcophagus.