The fact that "Durkon" wants to be resurrected should tip Roy off

[Omnipotent_One]

:"I'm na as good at healin' as I used ta be, an' we need all the healin' we can get ta beat Xykon"

Really? Come on, you can come up with a better lie than that, Vampire Durkon. Yes he can spontaneously cast cure critical wounds. What of it? Offensively or defensively, that spell is nothing to an epic level lich sorcerer. The only healing spell that would be actually useful during the battle against Xykon is Heal, and Vampire Durkon is actually better at casting that than living Durkon (because of the increased save DC from the wisdom boost).

And look at what he gives up by being resurrected. Damage reduction, natural armor, fast healing, resistances, higher stats in all categories, at will spell like abilities to use against his minions, and a ton of intangibles. There's a reason the Vampire template is worth +8 level adjustment. It's extremely strong. It absolutely gives Durkon an advantage in combat against Xykon.

If "Durkon"'s true concern was to defeat Xykon, there's no way he would want to be brought back. Roy's a smart guy. He has to know something is strange about Durkon's request.

[KillianHawkeye]

:"I'm na as good at healin' as I used ta be, an' we need all the healin' we can get ta beat Xykon"

Really? Come on, you can come up with a better lie than that, Vampire Durkon. Yes he can spontaneously cast cure critical wounds. What of it? Offensively or defensively, that spell is nothing to an epic level lich sorcerer. The only healing spell that would be actually useful during the battle against Xykon is Heal, and Vampire Durkon is actually better at casting that than living Durkon (because of the increased save DC from the wisdom boost).

And look at what he gives up by being resurrected. Damage reduction, natural armor, fast healing, resistances, higher stats in all categories, at will spell like abilities to use against his minions, and a ton of intangibles. There's a reason the Vampire template is worth +8 level adjustment. It's extremely strong. It absolutely gives Durkon an advantage in combat against Xykon.

If "Durkon"'s true concern was to defeat Xykon, there's no way he would want to be brought back. Roy's a smart guy. He has to know something is strange about Durkon's request.

I'm 98% certain that the healing he is claiming to need is not to be used offensively against Xykon, but for the aid of the group because that has been Durkon's main role in the party since always. Pretending to be worried about not being as good of a healer is an excellent lie to make Roy think he is still the same old Durkon.

[Gnome Alone]

Also, in this matter, Roy may be less inclined to use his thinky-brain, and more inclined to listen to his blood-pumpy thing.

[Mike Havran]

It's not just Xykon fight, it's also a race to the Tomb of Kraagor and subsequent dungeon crawl needed to be made ASAP. Spontaneous healing would be a huge help.

[SiuiS]

Cleric spells are granted by the gods of those clerics. It's a thing in D&D that if a cleric prepares a spell the deity doesn't want them to, tough; that heal was actually a hallow, deal with it. It's not used often in D&D because making clerics actually be religious people seems to frighten and scare RAW folks, but it's a thing.

Coupled with Durkon's previously already prepared heal spell becoming an inflict spell after his transformation, and we get the clear image that the High priest of Hel cannot use positive energy healing at all. This may have been a ruse however, since he seems to want Roy to come along.

[theNater]

The big advantage of being able to cast heal spells spontaneously isn't the heals themselves, but the ability to prepare other spells in those slots. A positive energy cleric can prepare little to no healing, and use other spells up as necessary. A negative energy cleric needs to guess how much healing they'll need, and guessing wrong makes their lives pretty rough.

It's also worth noting that being a vampire adds significant disadvantages when fighting a necromancer and a cleric. Both of them have ways of dealing with undead that wouldn't work on living targets.

[Roland Itiative]

Cleric spells are granted by the gods of those clerics. It's a thing in D&D that if a cleric prepares a spell the deity doesn't want them to, tough; that heal was actually a hallow, deal with it. It's not used often in D&D because making clerics actually be religious people seems to frighten and scare RAW folks, but it's a thing.

Coupled with Durkon's previously already prepared heal spell becoming an inflict spell after his transformation, and we get the clear image that the High priest of Hel cannot use positive energy healing at all. This may have been a ruse however, since he seems to want Roy to come along.

I don't think this is the right way to interpret that. Durkon could spontaneously turn any spell into a healing spell. He had no reason to have prayed for a healing spell when preparing his daily load. When Durkula moved on to "heal", he just used his ability to spontaneous turn spells, which Durkula would always be using for healing, but since he's now evil, it became an inflict wounds rather than a cure wounds.

Durkula certainly knew this would happen, but did it anyway to:

1- Inflict some pain for kicks.

2- Pretend he's still the same naïve Durkon, still learning to cope with the changes caused by his transformation.

Reason 2 being the important one, the other being just a bonus. It was also a way to inform the audience (some of which doesn't know anything about D&D rules) and the party (who knows way less than a "regular" D&D party knows about the rules most of the times) of the changes .

Plus, it would definitely be in Hel's best interest to have Durkula heal the OotS, to keep the party clueless about his true nature. It's just that he can't spontaneously heal anymore, regardless of what Hel wants, so he has to prepare these spells with fixed slots each day.

[factotum]

Yeah, I agree with Roland. Durkon never prepared a healing spell that day--he had no need to, because he could spontaneously convert any of the same or higher level spells he had prepared to a heal. Durkula, on the other hand, *has* to prepare any heal spells ahead of time; the only way he can heal as well as Durkon would be to prepare every single spell as a heal, and that would cripple his usefulness in other areas. Therefore, saying he would be a better healer as the living Durkon is no more or less than the simple truth; it's often said the best lies are the ones that have the most truth in them, and this is one of those occasions.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Admittedly, The High Priest of Hel is certainly more powerful than Durkon was, due to being a Vampire. However, he also has some disadvantages, such as having a very large LA and not being quite as good at healing. However, regardless of how much the Order benefits from the High Priest of Hel's cool powers, we now that Roy wants to bring Durkon back as soon as possible. Seeing that Durkon also wants to be brought back (i.e. that he doesn't care about those powers) does very well to convince Roy, who believes that the old Durkon would never have wanted to be a vampire, cool abilities or none.

[Synar]

It's also worth noting that being a vampire adds significant disadvantages when fighting a necromancer and a cleric. Both of them have ways of dealing with undead that wouldn't work on living targets.

Actually, no.
That may be true against a cleric, even if vampires have increased resistance to Turn/Intimidate Undead and evil clerics will tend to have less undead-targeting offensive spells prepared. However most profane spells are better against living targets, considering the pool of immunities that undead get (there is a reason why necropolitan is an OP template), and very few specifically target undeads or get additional effects against them.

Moreover, Xykon is not any necromancer, he is a sorcerer with a spell-list mostly known (see the class and level geekery thread) and whose favorite strategy is to spam Energy Drain. Vampires laugh against Energy Drain.
Do you know other spells Xykon like to use or know and that don't affect undeads? Symbol of Pain/Insanity, Enervation, Finger of Death or Cloudkill.
Ok, he also likes to cast Meteor Swarm, but Energy Drain is still extremely dangerous, and being a vampire an immense edge.


(Does Xykon know Command Undead, by the way? I don't think he does, or at least he never casted it and the Paladin Intelligence Service failed to notice it.)

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, I agree with Roland. Durkon never prepared a healing spell that day--he had no need to, because he could spontaneously convert any of the same or higher level spells he had prepared to a heal. Durkula, on the other hand, *has* to prepare any heal spells ahead of time; the only way he can heal as well as Durkon would be to prepare every single spell as a heal, and that would cripple his usefulness in other areas. Therefore, saying he would be a better healer as the living Durkon is no more or less than the simple truth; it's often said the best lies are the ones that have the most truth in them, and this is one of those occasions.

Yeah, this is mostly correct. I just feel I should note that a Cleric's spontaneous casting is normally limited to cure/inflict spells, while the actual Heal spell (such as the one used offensively in the fight against Malack) does need to be prepared in advance. I post this only because someone could have been confused by your wording and not knowing that there is a difference between Cure X Wounds and Heal. Admittedly, this is one of those places where D&D terminology and real world parlance have difficulty meshing, so confusion is to be expected. See also Strip 12 and the confusion over multiple uses of the word "level."

[brian 333]

Have we forgotten Redcloak can Command Undead?

Durkula is a pawn waiting to be moved.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Have we forgotten Redcloak can Command Undead?

Durkula is a pawn waiting to be moved.

However, Durkon has more HD than the Wights (who have 4) and has turn resistance. Commanding him is currently impossible for Redcloak, who doesn't have twice his HD in levels.

[littlebum2002]

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but Durkon has been a healing cleric for 966 strips, plus prologues and bonus material, despite that never being optimal. If he wanted to suddenly be anything BUT a healing cleric it would raise eyebrows.

[theNater]

Actually, no.
That may be true against a cleric, even if vampires have increased resistance to Turn/Intimidate Undead and evil clerics will tend to have less undead-targeting offensive spells prepared. However most profane spells are better against living targets, considering the pool of immunities that undead get (there is a reason why necropolitan is an OP template), and very few specifically target undeads or get additional effects against them.

Moreover, Xykon is not any necromancer, he is a sorcerer with a spell-list mostly known (see the class and level geekery thread) and whose favorite strategy is to spam Energy Drain. Vampires laugh against Energy Drain.
Do you know other spells Xykon like to use or know and that don't affect undeads? Symbol of Pain/Insanity, Enervation, Finger of Death or Cloudkill.
Ok, he also likes to cast Meteor Swarm, but Energy Drain is still extremely dangerous, and being a vampire an immense edge.


(Does Xykon know Command Undead, by the way? I don't think he does, or at least he never casted it and the Paladin Intelligence Service failed to notice it.)

A 20th level sorcerer knows 43 spells; an epic sorcerer can gain more. The list in the geekery thread contains 30 spells. Xykon has at least 13 spells we don't know of. Command Undead or Control Undead could easily be in there.

Worse, he's capable of epic spellcasting and has been known to research his own spells. He may have an epic spell for dealing with undead that get uppity.

However, Durkon has more HD than the Wights (who have 4) and has turn resistance. Commanding him is currently impossible for Redcloak, who doesn't have twice his HD in levels.

Rebuking is still on the table, though. Durkula's turn resistance is approximately countered by Redcloak's higher level.

[factotum]

Rebuking is still on the table, though. Durkula's turn resistance is approximately countered by Redcloak's higher level.

As the fight with Malack proved, though, all Durkula needs to do to counter a Rebuke is to use Bolster Undead on himself. Even if we ignore that, though, and Redcloak somehow manages to punch through the vampire's turn resistance (which is by no means a guaranteed thing)--all that happens is that enemies get a +2 to attacks against Durkon for the duration of the Rebuke. It doesn't prevent Durkula moving, casting spells, or attacking, it doesn't remove his damage resistance or his supernatural abilities, and it doesn't take one hit point off him. Frankly, if Redcloak wastes a round Rebuking Durkula then that's actually a win for the party, because it's a round when he's not using Implosion or anything similarly nasty against them.

[davidbofinger]

Also, in this matter, Roy may be less inclined to use his thinky-brain, and more inclined to listen to his blood-pumpy thing.

You don't mean ... no, I don't think you do. That's a relief.

[davidbofinger]

The biggest thing the (impersonated fake) Durkon gives up by being a vampire is that between now and the end of the story he'll be gaining levels slowly. Given the story seems to be approaching a climax that probably isn't worth as much as the vampire package but who knows.

[theNater]

As the fight with Malack proved, though, all Durkula needs to do to counter a Rebuke is to use Bolster Undead on himself. Even if we ignore that, though, and Redcloak somehow manages to punch through the vampire's turn resistance (which is by no means a guaranteed thing)--all that happens is that enemies get a +2 to attacks against Durkon for the duration of the Rebuke. It doesn't prevent Durkula moving, casting spells, or attacking, it doesn't remove his damage resistance or his supernatural abilities, and it doesn't take one hit point off him. Frankly, if Redcloak wastes a round Rebuking Durkula then that's actually a win for the party, because it's a round when he's not using Implosion or anything similarly nasty against them.

Durkon has to overcome his own turn resistance for Bolster Undead to do him any good, and he's far less likely to do so than Redcloak is.

As for the effect, cowering is a status in 3.5. It prohibits the affected character from taking actions, such as moving, casting spells, and attacking.

[factotum]

Durkon has to overcome his own turn resistance for Bolster Undead to do him any good, and he's far less likely to do so than Redcloak is.

As for the effect, cowering is a status in 3.5. It prohibits the affected character from taking actions, such as moving, casting spells, and attacking.

Malack managed to bolster himself just fine, so it's possible. As for cowering undead being unable to take actions, that's not what the SRD says--it specifically says that a rebuked undead just gets +2 to attack rolls made against it. (It does list "cowering" as a separate status effect, but that's not linked from the article on rebuking undead).

[Keltest]

Malack managed to bolster himself just fine, so it's possible. As for cowering undead being unable to take actions, that's not what the SRD says--it specifically says that a rebuked undead just gets +2 to attack rolls made against it. (It does list "cowering" as a separate status effect, but that's not linked from the article on rebuking undead).

Where are you getting this information? My source says that they will flee if possible, or cower if not, and it is specifically when they are cowering that the +2 bonus is gained.

[Jay R]

I know that the High Priest of Hel only came into existence because Durkon was killed and raised as a vampire by Malack, and then freed by Malack's "death".

But now he does exist, he controls Durkon's body, and he has Durkon's soul trapped.

Do we know that resurrection would change the facts that the HPoH exists, controls Durkon's body, and has Durkon's soul trapped?

[ICN]

I don't know about that, how many ranks in Knowledge: Religion does Roy have? I doubt he knows about all the associated perks of being a vampire. I'm guessing he does have enough ranks in Knowledge: Durkon to know that Durkon hates the undead. With those assumptions, asking to be resurrected makes perfect sense from Roy's point of view.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I know that the High Priest of Hel only came into existence because Durkon was killed and raised as a vampire by Malack, and then freed by Malack's "death".

But now he does exist, he controls Durkon's body, and he has Durkon's soul trapped.

Do we know that resurrection would change the facts that the HPoH exists, controls Durkon's body, and has Durkon's soul trapped?

It should. Resurrecting him requires destroying the High Priest of Hel. He seems very similar to an Outsider, so killing him should end him forever. Even if it doesn't, once he is gone, Durkon's soul will be freed and able to go to the Dwarven afterlife. Any resurrection spell targeting his body should bring him back, since it is his body.

[factotum]

Where are you getting this information? My source says that they will flee if possible, or cower if not, and it is specifically when they are cowering that the +2 bonus is gained.

That's Turn Undead--Rebuke Undead just does the cowering thing.

[Keltest]

That's Turn Undead--Rebuke Undead just does the cowering thing.

That's beside the point. Your post implied that a rebuked undead would still be able to take actions.

[theNater]

Malack managed to bolster himself just fine, so it's possible.

It is true that Malack used the Bolster Undead action. We don't know if that actually helped him in any way. By default, it is unlikely to do so(there are always feats; feats which Durkon is unlikely to have at this time).

As for cowering undead being unable to take actions, that's not what the SRD says--it specifically says that a rebuked undead just gets +2 to attack rolls made against it. (It does list "cowering" as a separate status effect, but that's not linked from the article on rebuking undead).

The hyperlink is not the rules text. The text is the rules text, and the text says that a rebuked undead cowers.

[tomandtish]

I don't know about that, how many ranks in Knowledge: Religion does Roy have? I doubt he knows about all the associated perks of being a vampire. I'm guessing he does have enough ranks in Knowledge: Durkon to know that Durkon hates the undead. With those assumptions, asking to be resurrected makes perfect sense from Roy's point of view.

Exactly. This is the most important part. We're seeing it as Durkon possessed by the HPoH. To Roy, it's still just Durkon with an evil twist.

Riy may have enough knowledge of vampires to know they drink blood. He apparently even has enough to know that they don't do heal spells (of course, he could have also been worried about energy drain anyway). But I'm willing to bet there aren't many people who know that vampires are actually a possessing spirit. That's probably a pretty high Knowledge (either Undead or Religion) check.

If the Order has any distrust of Durkula (cough Belkar cough), it's because they think he's turned evil. Not because there's actually an entirely separate being working against them inside Durkon's body.

[Ettina]

Why are you assuming Durkon's being truthful? My guess is he'll find the cleric guys, and then they'll be 'mysteriously' murdered before they can resurrect him.

[Keltest]

Why are you assuming Durkon's being truthful? My guess is he'll find the cleric guys, and then they'll be 'mysteriously' murdered before they can resurrect him.

I believe Roy is genre savvy enough to call shenanigans on that.