The fact that "Durkon" wants to be resurrected should tip Roy off

[Porthos]

1: Roy's been handed a colossal idiot ball for this story arc it seems.

If you say so.

2: The vampire template is so over priced as to be generally though unplayable.

Good thing there aren't players in this comic, eh?

[Stella]

Or maybe Roy thinks that Durkon, now as an Undead Abomination, has realized that being an undead abomination is not so bad? Or should Sam-I-Am be suspicious of me being the same person after I decide I like Green Eggs and Ham after spending an entire story decrying how much I hate Green Eggs and Ham?

I think it's more than a bit of a stretch to compare an analogy about claiming that you don't like a food which you haven't ever even tried before with a passive acceptance that your current status as an evil, undead abomination is completely opposed to your prior values, your cultural values, your deity's values (as a cleric, no less!), and your friend's values.

The former is something which minor children do all the time, because it's so much more fun to eat ice cream all the time and immediate gratification is something which minor children are all about, the little sociopaths. The latter is a complete change of the core values which made you the very person you have been demonstrated to be for the past many years.

And no, any sane adult doesn't need to "try evil" in order to know that it is wrong, just as any sane parent doesn't need to "try feeding their child only ice cream" to know that it is wrong.

1: Roy's been handed a colossal idiot ball for this story arc it seems.

Why? Because he hasn't demonstrated a level of Knowledge (Religion) which WoG has said simply does not exist in the OotS-verse? You'd really blame a character for not knowing the unknowable?

If that's the standard for idiocy, then the entire 'verse is idiots by definition.

Hint: They aren't. And neither is Roy.

[Themrys]

Or maybe Roy thinks that Durkon, now as an Undead Abomination, has realized that being an undead abomination is not so bad? Or should Sam-I-Am be suspicious of me being the same person after I decide I like Green Eggs and Ham after spending an entire story decrying how much I hate Green Eggs and Ham?

You really want to know? Well, since you asked: Sam should be suspicious about having actually emotionally manipulated you into eating Green Eggs and Ham and pretending or actually convincing yourself that you like it. But a person who spends an entire story nagging someone about eating something they don't like is not going to be that considerate afterwards.

As for Durkon: Being an undead abomination is not about fun, it is about morals. Being a dwarf is not about doing what you want to do. Therefore, it doesn't matter whether he likes being an undead abomination. It matters whether his duty is to be an undead abomination, and real Durkon would not be able to convince himself that it is.

[littlebum2002]

1: Roy's been handed a colossal idiot ball for this story arc it seems.

2: The vampire template is so over priced as to be generally though unplayable.

3: Refer to point number 1.



God I'm gonna hate this story arc so much.

Yeah, I hated the Azure City storyline for the same reason. I mean, sure it had great character development and well thought out plots, but Paladins are so underpowered!

[ti'esar]

I'll admit, of all the complaints I anticipated seeing about this story arc, "vampires are unoptimized" was not one of them.

[Keltest]

I'll admit, of all the complaints I anticipated seeing about this story arc, "vampires are unoptimized" was not one of them.

Its right up there with "Durkon is ugly as a vampire" in the level of relevance it should have on your enjoyment of the story.

[T-O-E]

Admittedly I haven't reread this comic in a while but surely the thing that should be tipping Roy off is that Durkula suddenly cares about optimisability. When was the last time a member of the party acted like a player of an RPG (controlling their PCs like Durkula controls Durkon) and not a character in a story?

And apparently from reading this thread both the vampire trait and the support healer role are both unoptimal so why is he planning on ditching one to accept the other? Why does optimisability matter now?

[Keltest]

Admittedly I haven't reread this comic in a while but surely the thing that should be tipping Roy off is that Durkula suddenly cares about optimisability. When was the last time a member of the party acted like a player of an RPG (controlling their PCs like Durkula controls Durkon) and not a character in a story?

And apparently from reading this thread both the vampire trait and the support healer role are both unoptimal so why is he planning on ditching one to accept the other? Why does optimisability matter now?

Its not about optimization. Durkon is the party healer. He is the ONLY one in the party capable of filling that roll at all, to any degree. Being a vampire seriously limits his usefulness as a healer, or as... whatever else he did when he wasn't using his spells as heals.

[Peelee]

Durkon is the party healer. He is the ONLY one in the party capable of filling that roll at all, to any degree.

Ummm... Elan has healing spells. While he would be a terrible party healer, he can fill that roll to a small degree.

I do not disagree with your overall point.

[factotum]

Technically, posthumously only requires that it be after his death, not that he be currently dead.

That's what "posthumously" means in our world, but in our world, once you're dead, you don't come back. In a world where you *can* be resurrected, I wouldn't be surprised if "posthumously" actually means "stuff that happens while you're dead" rather than "stuff that happens after you die".

[Themrys]

That's what "posthumously" means in our world, but in our world, once you're dead, you don't come back. In a world where you *can* be resurrected, I wouldn't be surprised if "posthumously" actually means "stuff that happens while you're dead" rather than "stuff that happens after you die".

Exactly. It may mean "After you die", but I don't think Durkon would be 100% sure about that. So, if this vampire was a slightly evil Durkon, who wants to return to the Dwarven lands, it would be strange for him to want to be resurrected because of efficiency. Not wanting to be an undead abomination, sure, but efficiency?

[Gusion]

Ummm... Elan has healing spells. While he would be a terrible party healer, he can fill that roll to a small degree.

I do not disagree with your overall point.

Actually, I think Elan would be an okay party healer. The group has plenty of gold, they just need to buy him some wands. Some are on his spell list, and the rest... well, let's hope he's been putting skill points into UMD.

Speaking of wands, V should have identified the ones Haley picked up by now...

[dps]

Word of Giant says that no one (living) knows the truth of vampires, so it is in fact an impossibly high check.

Uhm, no, Word of Giant is that knowledge of the truth about vampires is very rare, even among clerics. That's not the same thing. (Though functionally within the story, it might as well be--the truth about what's happened to Durkon isn't going to be revealed to the rest of the party because of anyone making a knowledge check.)

[Kish]

Actually, I think Elan would be an okay party healer. The group has plenty of gold, they just need to buy him some wands. Some are on his spell list, and the rest... well, let's hope he's been putting skill points into UMD.

Invitation declined, with the note that it turns your first sentence into, "I think, if something I have no good reason to hope but do anyway and expect unspecified other people to join me in hoping, is true, then Elan would be an okay party healer, if he had a lot of wands which he doesn't have."

[raymundo]

Like with the hundreds of similair threads, the characters dont act and think like players minmaxing their game. Theyre protagonists in .. a story, not in a theorycrafting exercise.

/thread

[littlebum2002]

Agreed.

Durkon has always been the party healer.
He wants to go back to being the party healer.

After 967 strips, it would be ENTIRELY out of character for Durkon to suddenly realize "You know what? Healing is sub-optimal".

[YossarianLives]

Ummm... Elan has healing spells. While he would be a terrible party healer, he can fill that roll to a small degree.
I do not disagree with your overall point.

Don't worry! He has doctor Banjo to help him out in case his healing skills aren't up to scratch.

[littlebum2002]

Lol, I love when people start incredibly controversial threads then just never respond.

[ericgrau]

Spontaneously casting cure spells instead of preparing them is handy, but not great. Not nearly as great as vampire-ness. Vampire-ness is hands down way better for saving the world and that should be obvious even to Roy. The only drawback is that Durkon won't gain a level for quite a while, but that's a problem for a while after they reach the next gate. In fact Roy should know he has no chance against Durkula 1v1, even if Durkula was a vampire warrior rather than a vampire caster. Maybe Roy already knows and is keeping it hidden until he can confirm and regroup with the party. Or maybe he really doesn't know anything about vampires... except he knows holy wafers and a beheading can kill them so he knows at least something about vampires.

[Keltest]

Spontaneously casting cure spells instead of preparing them is handy, but not great. Not nearly as great as vampire-ness. Vampire-ness is hands down way better for saving the world and that should be obvious even to Roy. The only drawback is that Durkon won't gain a level for quite a while, but that's a problem for a while after they reach the next gate. In fact Roy should know he has no chance against Durkula 1v1, even if Durkula was a vampire warrior rather than a vampire caster. Maybe Roy already knows and is keeping it hidden until he can confirm and regroup with the party. Or maybe he really doesn't know anything about vampires... except he knows holy wafers and a beheading can kill them so he knows at least something about vampires.

A very significant portion of the cleric's power comes from their spells. If Durkon is losing those spells because he has to prepare heal spells in their slots instead, that it taking away a good deal of his utility. And in a quest against an epic lich and a very powerful cleric, are the perks of vampirism really worth it compared to the effective loss of his spell slots?

[ericgrau]

He can still prepare some cure spells and some combat spells. What he's lost is a handful of spells each day due to guessing wrong on his needs. It's a little annoying but it's not a huge measure of power. Not even a drop in the hat compared to being a vampire. Heck as pointed out the biggest one by far, heal, can't be cast spontaneously. And he can always prepare a couple extra cure spells and spontaneously convert them to inflict if he's that desperate for a combat spell. The benefit is really quite trivial. Wizards aren't suddenly at a loss for power without it.

[Keltest]

He can still prepare some cure spells and some combat spells. What he's lost is a handful of spells each day due to guessing wrong on his needs. It's a little annoying but it's not a huge measure of power. Not even a drop in the hat compared to being a vampire. Heck as pointed out the biggest one by far, heal, can't be cast spontaneously. And he can always prepare a couple extra cure spells and spontaneously convert them to inflict if he's that desperate for a combat spell. The benefit is really quite trivial. Wizards aren't suddenly at a loss for casting power without it.

Ok, like I said, what are the big advantages to Durkon's style that come from being a vampire?

[ericgrau]

Melee and resistances. And a rather tremendous amount. That dominate person that keeps making a mockery of others? Immune. Plus 97 other such things. Any codzilla who got the 8 LA for free would love to be a vampire. The LA is a future problem, but that's going to be long after the next gate.

[factotum]

Any codzilla who got the 8 LA for free would love to be a vampire.

And therein lies the problem--Durkon is not a CoDZilla (he's nowhere near min-maxed enough for that), and furthermore, any argument which is based on "Character X will do Y because it's the most optimal thing to do" is ignoring the fact that the characters in OotS are very bad at using their abilities optimally; possibly because they're actual CHARACTERS rather than a collection of numbers?

[Kish]

The LA is a future problem, but that's going to be long after the next gate.

If someone said, "I think the entire storyline involving Kraagor's Gate will take place without the Order gaining any more levels," it would be unlikely speculation.

The fact that you're asserting it as an absolute established fact, and asserting that "long after the next gate" is even going to be a thing, is baffling. Durkon's gone from metaphorically having his fingers inches away from ninth-level spells to seeing them yanked to the top of a very high tree, and that would be more than enough reason to want to return to life...even if "Durkon isn't optimizing!" was the huge red flag some people think it should be.

[Jay R]

Ok, like I said, what are the big advantages to Durkon's style that come from being a vampire?

"Making Belkar jump off the airship" has to qualify as an advantage.

[littlebum2002]

Ok, like I said, what are the big advantages to Durkon's style that come from being a vampire?

He's a melee cleric, right?

d12 hit die
+6 natural armor
Damage Reduction 10
Energy Drain Slam secondary attack
Dominate ability
Fast Healing
+6 STR
+2 WIS
+2 CHA

That's about it. The rest don't really help him all that much,.

[Keltest]

He's a melee cleric, right?

d12 hit die
+6 natural armor
Damage Reduction 10
Energy Drain Slam secondary attack
Dominate ability
Fast Healing
+6 STR
+2 WIS
+2 CHA

That's about it. The rest don't really help him all that much,.

He is (was) mostly a healing cleric, that I could see. The fact that he would enter melee combat when nobody was injured is not necessarily indicative that he was focused on being in melee combat.

[littlebum2002]

He is (was) mostly a healing cleric, that I could see. The fact that he would enter melee combat when nobody was injured is not necessarily indicative that he was focused on being in melee combat.

First of all, I completely agree that Durkon is better off un-vamped for his type of build. But you're right, Durkon is pretty much all support, and only goes to Melee when absolutely necessary, so


d12 hit die
+6 natural armor
Damage Reduction 10
Energy Drain Slam secondary attack
Dominate ability
Fast Healing
+6 STR
+2 WIS
+2 CHA

Still leaves a good chunk of abilities. Still, the loss of spontaneous healing is a huge blow for his efficiency at the job he has had the entire strip, regardless of whether that job was ever the best choice for him to take. After all, if he was focused on min/maxxing, he wouldn't be a Cleric of Thor, either.

[Sartharina]

A vampire's d12 HD is a strict downgrade from a dwarven cleric's d8+CON HD.