EMPIRE! CWBG X: For Obscure Cultural Reasons, We Have Huuuuuuge Tracts Of Land

[moossabi]

An Invitation to my event, held in the year 468.

The Mother of the Night calls to her Children

Any regent who has the Children of Kina as a minority will be sent an invitation. Any Regent who is a known follower of Radurja will be sent an invitation as a courtesy. Also, the mashahidi of Radurja will also be sent an invitation as a courtesy.

While I wait for Morph to see my PM, do you mind if I spread some chaos?

With my own magical NPC, of course.

[ImperatorV]

While I wait for Morph to see my PM, do you mind if I spread some chaos?

With my own magical NPC, of course.

Hey, stop beating me to stuff.

Of course, my NPC just wants to observe the ritual...

[Reggiejam]

An Invitation to my event, held in the year 468.

The Mother of the Night calls to her Children

Any regent who has the Children of Kina as a minority will be sent an invitation. Any Regent who is a known follower of Radurja will be sent an invitation as a courtesy. Also, the mashahidi of Radurja will also be sent an invitation as a courtesy.

Valineth and her daughters will be attending with PM and writeup coming shortly. Also asking permission to allow a single Huroshan representative to tag along.

[lt_murgen]

Do I have Children of Kina? I think I do, but I'm not certain.

I don't think so either. But if you want to attend, you could always claim you were in the Jeweled Cities discussing rebuilding your flagship that we sunk.

While I wait for Morph to see my PM, do you mind if I spread some chaos?

With my own magical NPC, of course.

IC- you can try.
OOC-feel free, as long as you are aware of the situation you are walking into. No one travels the Blackadder forest without a guide. If the native wildlife don't get you, the xenophobic natives will. The Goddess Kina herself has been manipulating events for decades to reach this moment. And despite the efforts of the mainstream Children of Kina to stamp them out, the Deceivers still exist. They believe it is their religious obligation to strangle to death evil doers. They use their Faith as their rolls to kill, and this is a FAITH 10 event. So be warned.

Hey, stop beating me to stuff.

Of course, my NPC just wants to observe the ritual...

Same as above.

[Lord_Burch]

IC- you can try.
OOC-feel free, as long as you are aware of the situation you are walking into. No one travels the Blackadder forest without a guide. If the native wildlife don't get you, the xenophobic natives will. The Goddess Kina herself has been manipulating events for decades to reach this moment. And despite the efforts of the mainstream Children of Kina to stamp them out, the Deceivers still exist. They believe it is their religious obligation to strangle to death evil doers. They use their Faith as their rolls to kill, and this is a FAITH 10 event. So be warned.

So, no deadlier than any other faith event, then?

[ImperatorV]

I don't think so either. But if you want to attend, you could always claim you were in the Jeweled Cities discussing rebuilding your flagship that we sunk.



IC- you can try.
OOC-feel free, as long as you are aware of the situation you are walking into. No one travels the Blackadder forest without a guide. If the native wildlife don't get you, the xenophobic natives will. The Goddess Kina herself has been manipulating events for decades to reach this moment. And despite the efforts of the mainstream Children of Kina to stamp them out, the Deceivers still exist. They believe it is their religious obligation to strangle to death evil doers. They use their Faith as their rolls to kill, and this is a FAITH 10 event. So be warned.


Same as above.

The nephew of the chief executive of the Triumvirate needs to walk?

I have to wonder if I did all that foreshadowing for nothing...

[lt_murgen]

So, no deadlier than any other faith event, then?

I promise I will keep it to a 50% casualty rate!

[DoomHat]

I'm beginning to see the benefits of having a royal family in one's nation. Helps maintain a consistent cast of characters. I worry it might start getting tiresome, inventing new Cree VIPs from scratch ever other turn.

[SamBurke]

I'm beginning to see the benefits of having a royal family in one's nation. Helps maintain a consistent cast of characters. I worry it might start getting tiresome, inventing new Cree VIPs from scratch ever other turn.

I remember a time when I had NPCs who weren't ruling family... Haven't been any for a while now.

[Kitsanth]

...is there anyone that still needs Bats or Grain? I also have Rocks!

Pick me! I gave one of my new regions the resource requirement of grains, also, I think RD was interested in bats at one point. I shall have to mention it to him.

[Lord_Burch]

...is there anyone that still needs Bats or Grain? I also have Rocks!

I (well, Alydaxas, but) needs some grains, at least for a bit. Although Solus probably could use some more food resources, regardless. Or any food item, really, if anyone's interested.

[zabbarot]

I'm beginning to see the benefits of having a royal family in one's nation. Helps maintain a consistent cast of characters. I worry it might start getting tiresome, inventing new Cree VIPs from scratch ever other turn.

:P All my characters are ooooooold, so they're rarely around for more than a few rounds. Most are either made up on the spot or throw backs to the rare named low level priest who I liked enough to decide probably got promoted.

[Aedilred]

So in answer, I'm proposing that I'm developing a tech, because I'm an empire that wants to be MORE efficient, and since there's no way to do that with the rules, I'm trying to develop that through technology.

I knew there would be opposition, but its not like its limited to empires. ANY liege and vassal could do it. You don't even need to be an empire.

I've been thinking on this a bit more. I think an issue is - aside from the problems mentioned earlier about balance and fundamental changes to the game mechanics - that in some ways it's two technologies rolled into one. It's both "vassals may use their liege's score to perform special actions" and "a ruler may perform two special actions in their lifetime", since it doesn't stop the liege using it themselves and therefore getting two bites at the cherry. The wording also seems to imply that it would allow seven actions to be taken in a round, and what's more it's extremely broadly applicable. Most techs give relatively small bonuses to one attribute and sometimes limited to certain situations - at best.

If it were limited to "vassals may use their liege's score to perform special actions" - limited presumably to once/ruler or once/attribute - it would seem a lot less egregious, I think. It also relies on cooperation from the liege in forgoing that special action with that ruler, which maintains a key part of the liege/vassal relationship. That doesn't preclude a later tech allowing multiple special actions per ruler if the GMs think that would be ok.


More generally, speaking as a vassal and indeed the longest-serving vassal remaining in the game, I think the mechanical benefits of being one are already very good with almost no meaningful disadvantages and that is something that was probably worthy of consideration even previously. Most notably, a liege actually has no power over their vassal at all: the only meaningful thing they have to threaten them with is de-vassalising them, which seems a bit wonky (and in the case of an empire would probably hurt the liege too). Sure, they could invade or blockade them, but so could anyone. Hurosha has no more power over Calorum than the Triumvirate does. Giving vassals more benefits without addressing that doesn't seem a great idea, even if it is coming from technologies (because ultimately everyone will get hold of those technologies and it'll effectively become part of the main rules).

I'm beginning to see the benefits of having a royal family in one's nation. Helps maintain a consistent cast of characters. I worry it might start getting tiresome, inventing new Cree VIPs from scratch ever other turn.

On the other hand, it gives you disposable NPCs, which is nice.

[Kitsanth]

On the other hand, it gives you disposable NPCs, which is nice.

Niskovia has more than enough nobles running around to have disposable NPC's who are still important somehow.

[Aedilred]

Niskovia has more than enough nobles running around to have disposable NPC's who are still important somehow.

I have plenty of nobles and similar characters in theory, but unless they're on the family tree I have no system for them. I'm not sure which is more trouble: coming up with some way to keep them consistent or just making them up every time I need some.

[DurkBlanston]

I have plenty of nobles and similar characters in theory, but unless they're on the family tree I have no system for them. I'm not sure which is more trouble: coming up with some way to keep them consistent or just making them up every time I need some.

Yeah, I pretty much only have nobles that are on the royal tree too. I've thought about making noble trees but the upkeep required would be enormous and I'd probably just be making characters up as time went on anyway for a family tree I hadn't edited for 5 rounds when they became relevant again.

Logic it would be very nice if you could clear your inbox again.

[Logic]

Yeah, I pretty much only have nobles that are on the royal tree too. I've thought about making noble trees but the upkeep required would be enormous and I'd probably just be making characters up as time went on anyway for a family tree I hadn't edited for 5 rounds when they became relevant again.

Logic it would be very nice if you could clear your inbox again.

Done! (I guess that explains why I didn't receive any of the replies I was expecting.)

[WaylanderX]

Valineth and her daughters will be attending with PM and writeup coming shortly. Also asking permission to allow a single Huroshan representative to tag along.

Hehe, I'll see if I can post. Shouldn't be a problem though.

Also, Blade, I'll see if I can wrap the Magma thread up any time soon. Sorry for the delay .

[Silverbit]

Faith events: probably the number one cause of death for our characters…

[Lady Serpentine]

DoomHat - "GIVE US THY GRAIN HERET-"

*gurgling noises*

"I'm afraid my brother was a bit fanatical. If you aren't too far, we could use some grain, please."

[DoomHat]

To all those interested in my boulders and barley, please PM me with offers. Tracking down your existing trade deals is exhausting.
I have my current trade obligation's in my Region post, linked in my signature. I'm upgrading my Grain to great this turn.

[Lord_Burch]

@Logic Did you get my tech trade PM Monday? I'm asking cause it sounds like you've cleared out a bunch of PMs lately, and that may have been among them.

[Kitsanth]

For persons who may be interested - recent advances in Niskovia have lead to the development of a comprehensive treatise on 'laws of the physical realm'.

In other words, my people have C10'd the tech of physics! I will update you all on its ideal bonuses soon.

[WaylanderX]

To all those interested in my boulders and barley, please PM me with offers. Tracking down your existing trade deals is exhausting.
I have my current trade obligation's in my Region post, linked in my signature. I'm upgrading my Grain to great this turn.

I'm interested. I'll send ya a PM.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I've been thinking on this a bit more. I think an issue is - aside from the problems mentioned earlier about balance and fundamental changes to the game mechanics - that in some ways it's two technologies rolled into one.

I'll tackle your points as best I can, but I think you're mistaken on a few things. I've already seen a technology change game mechanics, its called effecient building. I understand that Great Projects aren't as overall effecting as this would be, but if you didn't want c10 actions to affect game mechanics, we probably should have made the line there...

It's both "vassals may use their liege's score to perform special actions" and "a ruler may perform two special actions in their lifetime", since it doesn't stop the liege using it themselves and therefore getting two bites at the cherry. The wording also seems to imply that it would allow seven actions to be taken in a round, and what's more it's extremely broadly applicable. Most techs give relatively small bonuses to one attribute and sometimes limited to certain situations - at best.

No, that's not what I meant, actually. Perhaps I worded it poorly, but I'm saying that this mechanic doesn't effect the rulers ability to use his own actions (unlike the DIP 10 action that morph just allowed to be used for an NPC vassal, where the ruler uses it FOR his vassals). So in otherwords, say a vassal has a low Curiosity. He could instead once use the ruler's stat to do a Cur5 action, once. I could even throw in, if they use the rulers stat in this way, they can no longer use the rulers stat in not only this way, but at all in this category.

And even there, its much more limited. This is an action BOTH of the vassals have to agree on, and works for BOTH of them. So in other words, if the vassals decide to use the Curiosity 5 action to create a resource in X region, then its lost to both of them. It's an extra action communitively, not seperately.

If it were limited to "vassals may use their liege's score to perform special actions" - limited presumably to once/ruler or once/attribute - it would seem a lot less egregious, I think. It also relies on cooperation from the liege in forgoing that special action with that ruler, which maintains a key part of the liege/vassal relationship. That doesn't preclude a later tech allowing multiple special actions per ruler if the GMs think that would be ok.

There might be ways to later advance it, but I'm not sure how that would be accomplished by advancing technology more. I think this might be as far as it could go.

More generally, speaking as a vassal and indeed the longest-serving vassal remaining in the game, I think the mechanical benefits of being one are already very good with almost no meaningful disadvantages and that is something that was probably worthy of consideration even previously. Most notably, a liege actually has no power over their vassal at all: the only meaningful thing they have to threaten them with is de-vassalising them, which seems a bit wonky (and in the case of an empire would probably hurt the liege too). Sure, they could invade or blockade them, but so could anyone. Hurosha has no more power over Calorum than the Triumvirate does. Giving vassals more benefits without addressing that doesn't seem a great idea, even if it is coming from technologies (because ultimately everyone will get hold of those technologies and it'll effectively become part of the main rules).

I understand that there are nice benifits to being a vassal. And once you are a greater vassal, there's not even a limit on how many regions you get (yet at least).

But there are ways that a liege can limit his vassals, and that's mostly per the terms of the vassal agreement within the empire. For instance, I believe at one point the Salterri were taking Tributes from their vassals, one of each stack.

For myself, I can limit where my vassals go to war, if I so choose. Whether IC by direct order, or by passively hampering their movements, as I did to block Guilder when they were involved with the War of the Priory. I can meddle in who runs the country, such as placing Inigo back on the throne with Guilder, or block his actions with my own as his liege, such as denying him trading things that I deem unsafe until further tested, like I will be doing with his Mechs (as you'll find out in the Games thread). In fact, unless I give him the OK for a distribution, Guilder has been denied the ability to trade his techs for his actions in the Imperium lands.

Even though there aren't any hard and fast rules for lieges power over their vassals, there's still things that IC would make sense for them, and we've been discussing this some about how Girard is reacting after teking a tour amoung his Empire, like Hadrien did in the Roman Empire. They just haven't been implemented yet because, well, the only vassal to do something a ruler didn't like before Guilder was the Priory.

You do raise a good point that maybe some of a Liege's abilities should be put into the rules, so that its not setting up vassals to "inevitably betray" their Lieges when they decide to do something that isn't great for their empire. What do you think would be good delegations in this regard?

[ReaderAt2046]

Big news! This round witnesses the birth of the Pavonian Imperium! Come one, come all to the celebration!

(Some of my closer allies have received special invitations, but all are welcome to attend).

[WaylanderX]

And suddenly, a giant influx of events. Hhhmm.

Personally, I think its gonna be the Games and Children of Kina thing for me.

I will just offend the Pavonians more when my aquatic races show up ;P.

[Aedilred]

You do raise a good point that maybe some of a Liege's abilities should be put into the rules, so that its not setting up vassals to "inevitably betray" their Lieges when they decide to do something that isn't great for their empire. What do you think would be good delegations in this regard?

I'm honestly not sure: my thoughts on the subject have been more in the "I can get away with anything" line... Off the top of my head, perhaps a mechanic to force replacement of a ruler by one of the liege's choice, whether by an opposed roll-off or a special action or whatever. Or perhaps the ability to disband a vassal's military units (down to a sensible minimum). Going back to the original ward state rules there was resource control and the ability to veto Military/Diplomacy actions, the latter of which might not have been a terrible idea (and Faith could even be added into that mix as well)

[WaylanderX]

Oke, now to think what the flip I am going to transmute...hhhmmm....

[lt_murgen]

I'm honestly not sure: my thoughts on the subject have been more in the "I can get away with anything" line... Off the top of my head, perhaps a mechanic to force replacement of a ruler by one of the liege's choice, whether by an opposed roll-off or a special action or whatever. Or perhaps the ability to disband a vassal's military units (down to a sensible minimum). Going back to the original ward state rules there was resource control and the ability to veto Military/Diplomacy actions, the latter of which might not have been a terrible idea (and Faith could even be added into that mix as well)

I'm not a fan of vetoing actions. It introduces the same kind of spiral we saw with military actions- action, veto, new action, remove veto, and so on.

I would prefer it to be some kind of automatic power lieges have. Such as:

1) a liege can spend one diplomacy action to cause unrest in any or all regions controlled by a vassal. That would be a powerful stick to keep them in line: "Follow my rules or you are going to spend the next 5 years quelling rebellions in your provinces."
or
2) a leige can spend one Military action to cause a vassal to lose 1D6 military units. "Follow my rules or your military commanders will be subject to loyalty... exams."
or
3) a leige can spend one Curiosity action to cause a vassal to lose one Good resource, or lower a great to good. "Follow my rules or I will forbid the mining of mithril in your province."
or
4) a leige can spend one Faith action to cause a vassal to lose one minority faith, or lower a majority to minority. "Get the heretics in line or I will send in the inquisition."
I don't think it should be an opposed roll, but the price you pay for being a vassal. Obey, suffer the consequences, or revolt.