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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Oko and Qailee's Avatar

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    Default What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Ok, so here is the story:

    Basically, there is this Big Bad Evil McEvil "spellcaster" in this town that is surrounded in an Anti-Magic Field (AMF). Our party needs to defeat/capture/kill him because he's a higher member of some secret plot to overthrow our home city of Silver trees and sunshine. Now, two sessions ago we were told that the spellcaster can cast within the AMF, as a matter of fact we saw him casting from a distance away well before we entered the city. We met a resistance that has helped us enter the city and now we're inside of an AMF with very few ways out.

    The party was split and half of us found out, from a most-likely reliable source, that apparently the AMF uses a material focus and will go down as soon as we can destroy it. Of course, the focus is an innocent lady whose the wife of this poor one-armed guy who refused to not come with us into the city so that he can save his wife and daughter. As we kept getting information about the situation the more and more impossible it seemed to avoid killing this lady. I'm trying to play an ultra-good character but I don't think any decent wisdom (let alone high wisdom, which I have) character would commit suicide and condemn an entire city for the sake of one person. By the end of the session, despite it being a good one over all, I was a bit mad and asked the DM flat out if there was any chance we can save this lady or if he was going to shut down every idea I had (as a few of my idea were shot down already.)

    He said there was.

    So I would like to save her if possible. Below are the details.

    Spoiler: Party composition
    Show

    All level 11, we level up rarely.
    The following know about the lady being the focus of the spell:
    -DMM: Quicken Wisdom Archer. Cleric level 8. (Good, this is me)
    -Monk/Sorcerer (Lawful Neutral)
    -TWF Favored Soul. Favored Soul level 9. Very sub optimal spell selection. (Good)

    The following do not:
    -Rogue (Chaotic Neutral I think)
    -Wizard? Not sure, joined last session.
    -Frenzy Barbarian Ubercharger (Died last session, will have a temp replacement, not sure on details.)


    Spoiler: Details
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    1) I do not have access to Revivify and Raise Dead yet.
    2) Moving her, knocking her out, anything but killing her, will not remove the AMF. The AMF is not centered on her. (Honestly I hate this trope)
    3) We work for a powerful guild that only loans us magic items before we go on quests. We currently have 23k Credit that we can use. I can get consumable materials in the future (ex. Diamond Dust for Raise dead) but that will drop my credit permanently (not sure by how much).
    4) EXP is not used in this campaign, to do anything involving EXP we need to find EXP stones.
    5) The ultra powerful guild will not resurrect her for us, they only resurrect guild members.
    6) Round about plans have generally been prevented via railroading, so I don't know if we'll be able to leave the city and waste an entire day prepping. Otherwise I'd leave the city, use Substitute Domain, wait 24 hours, and do the Shrink Item anti-AMF head cone trick.
    7) Apparently, while the party was split, the Frenzied Ubercharger blew up a lvl 16 Druid, meaning the DM doesn't play spellcasters that well, bc the Ubercharger isn't that great, he has a will save of +1 and no ways to overcome a lot of charging issues (obstacles, rough terrain, etc).
    8) While I'm not sure about the Wizard player, the entire party is lower power than I am, and I don't consider myself that strong. I don't think the Wizard player has any plans vs the AMF bc he was freaking out when he heard about it.


    Spoiler: My build personally
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    -Ranger2/Monk1(Iregretthis)/CloisteredCleric3/ChurchInquisitor3/SacredExorcist1/Contemplative1
    -DMM: Quicken and pre-reqs, Elf, Time, Undeath domains. Knowledge Devotion. Zen Archery and a Homebrew feat that gives me Wis to DMG.
    -The DM has books limited to Core, Completes, ToB, and Spell Compendium.

    Even under the AMF, with average Knowledge Devotion rolls and Wis to DMG and To-Hit I have +13 to hit and 1d8+11 damage with 3 attacks. Sadly, my build was pretty dependent of Quickening Magic buffs on myself for maximum pew-pew. The DM has started throwing homebrew-anti-cleric-archer stuff at me (arrows that do dmg based of my Wisdom score, an imp that auto-reflects arrows), last session I made sure to tone down my power because I didn't want to be disruptive (I did more buffing/healing less pew pew).


    Now, my last option solutions are one of the following:
    1) Fight the wizard guy solo and hope I win somehow with my massive saves and potions. If I die the guild just brings me back, I have a temporary backup character already made that will wreck this wizard (coincidence btw). The reason why I specify solo is because I don't want to get us all killed and if I lose the party will probably just drop the AMF via murder and then wreck the wizard guy.
    2) Kill the lady after a conversation with her. Place her in my back of holding and swear to the Overdiety of the campaign himself to re-unite the family. Wait until I level up (I have a feeling it will be after this mission) and then permanently drop my Credit wealth by 5k in order to get the diamond dust to bring her back. I did some fancy math and found out if the guild makes me the reliquary symbol I want (for future borrowing), then odds are I will be barely weaker in the future. I'm already pretty strong (relatively) and I wouldn't mind being weakened. But I would still try to avoid this situation in any way possible.

    But like I said, anything that will certainly work is appreciated. I've done a lot of DMing but this is the first live campaign I've played in, so I'm good at making dungeons, varying difficulty encounters, etc. But I'm bad at being creative as a player (I feel like), which is probably why my own players surprise me so much.

    TLDR: How can I not kill an innocent person when she's the source of a city wide AMF?
    (Currently afk halfway across the country.)

    Attempting Homebrew:
    Requip Knight

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    So uh, why won't they resurrect her? If they won't, will someone else? I assume there are good aligned churches you can explain the issue to.

    Heck, anything preventing her becoming a member of the guild?
    Last edited by Honest Tiefling; 2014-11-02 at 09:20 PM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Even if you can't rez the kid, then make the pragmatic decision and kill it. It's what needs to be done, ultimately, even if it is evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    There's a reason why we bap your nose, not crucify you, for thread necromancy.

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    Red Fel's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Murder your DM.1

    I really, really hate it when DMs pull this crap. The DM may think he's being all creative and forcing the players to think outside of the box, but really he's just encouraging murderhoboing and punishing anyone who takes the G in their alignment entry seriously. It stinks on ice.

    I also hate when DMs give you a "puzzle" (and I use quotation marks, because this is really a puzzle in name only) with only one solution, which is in no way obvious. The rule of three applies here - there must be at least three ways to overcome any obstacle, and the DM should be prepared to reward creativity if the players come up with a fourth.

    I'd also like to note that it's possible he has it in for you. I mean, anti-Cleric archer stuff? That seems awfully specific, doesn't it?

    In any event, here are the options I see.
    1. Kill her and bring her back. It's nasty, but it works.
    2. Kill the Wizard without taking down the AMF.
    3. Steal the DM's notes.
    4. Pray super hard to your deity.
    5. Read the DM's mind.
    6. Figure out a way to disjoin her from the AMF effect. (E.g. how did she become the focus in the first place?)

    Barring that, there's always the resort of spite: Sabotage. I don't recommend it, but then, I don't know you personally, and if you're feeling frustrated, it's a fairly trivial effort to basically spend an entire session dickering and pondering and planning aloud, and doing absolutely nothing in character, until the DM breaks down and either (1) tells you how to fix the AMF situation, (2) forces a conflict, or (3) throws in the towel and cancels the game.2

    1 Don't murder your DM. That would be illegal. Also, something something cruelty to animals.
    2 Don't do this either. Spite doesn't pay.
    My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.

    Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.

    My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Oko and Qailee's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    So uh, why won't they resurrect her? If they won't, will someone else? I assume there are good aligned churches you can explain the issue to.

    Heck, anything preventing her becoming a member of the guild?
    Well, from what I understand anyone with class levels usually joins one of the city guilds. It's a good idea though and I'll consider it a potential solution I can ask (actually I'll ask right now if my character knows of any.)

    As far as I'm aware she only has a level in commoner. Her 'warrior' husband has one arm and has a level in commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Even if you can't rez the kid, then make the pragmatic decision and kill it. It's what needs to be done, ultimately, even if it is evil.
    That is the final solution yes. But if I can get away with her not being killed then I'd like to do that. Honestly, just because I feel this is a silly trope, I should just kill her and be done with it (to laugh at the lame "moral choice"), but I want to be fair to my character and she would try to exhaust all reasonable options.
    (Currently afk halfway across the country.)

    Attempting Homebrew:
    Requip Knight

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Oko and Qailee's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    --Things that made me laugh mixed with things that made me think--
    The DM is a cool guy and a good friend, but him and his buds have a poor concept of game balance. I'm 99.9% sure the cleric stuff was just because he felt I was really strong (Honestly, dead is dead and I kill things as fast as the uber-charger, faster if the things we're killing are numerous with low amounts of HP). The anti-arrow imp thing pissed me off, but I found the idea of anti-Stat arrows kind of cool (not sure how I would price them... and I'd more likely give it to my players). That's why the last session I toned it down, and interestingly enough, nothing stupid screwed me over.

    I did decide though if this character died I'd probably deny resurrection requests (afterlife is nice yo). It's hard trying to try to be very good aligned...
    (Currently afk halfway across the country.)

    Attempting Homebrew:
    Requip Knight

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    I ask on the off chance you have the ability to swear her in. Or you could remind your guild that they'll look like jerks if they don't raise this woman, OR they can have a powerful healer limit themselves in power to fix THEIR mess. If they don't help, go make a rival guild with a much better reputation as penance for having to work with these people.

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    Red Fel's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    I did decide though if this character died I'd probably deny resurrection requests (afterlife is nice yo). It's hard trying to try to be very good aligned...
    It sounds like you're the only one. You mentioned the rest of the party would probably kill her if you solo'd the BBEG and lost. That Favored Soul, for instance, is he actually Good, or just on-paper Good? If you're the only player who seems to have an issue with killing this NPC, you might be in a murderhobo party, in which case you're probably better off getting your character snuffed and rerolling as a PC in the deeper end of the alignment pool.
    My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.

    Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.

    My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Oko and Qailee's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    I ask on the off chance you have the ability to swear her in. Or you could remind your guild that they'll look like jerks if they don't raise this woman, OR they can have a powerful healer limit themselves in power to fix THEIR mess. If they don't help, go make a rival guild with a much better reputation as penance for having to work with these people.
    Man, I like this tiefling.

    It would reflect on the pretty poorly. I think the guild is overall good aligned, but they do have massive amounts of resources and stuff (not that market-competition really effects D&D characters).
    (Currently afk halfway across the country.)

    Attempting Homebrew:
    Requip Knight

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Oko and Qailee's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    It sounds like you're the only one. You mentioned the rest of the party would probably kill her if you solo'd the BBEG and lost. That Favored Soul, for instance, is he actually Good, or just on-paper Good? If you're the only player who seems to have an issue with killing this NPC, you might be in a murderhobo party, in which case you're probably better off getting your character snuffed and rerolling as a PC in the deeper end of the alignment pool.
    The Lawful Neutral monk actually seems more good than the Favored Soul. He said he's 99.9999% against even the plan of killing her and then resurrecting her later. The favored soul just kind of goes with the flow from my perspective. He doesn't murder and loot stuff on a whim, but he doesn't really actively do much in general, except make a lot of sex jokes (they're actually pretty funny though).

    The rogue player always rushes to do "the most important thing" so he's likely to say something to the extent of "the fate of the world is at stake, we don't have time to try and save her, the greater good requires the AMF down."

    The barbarian player likes to kill things for a lot of damage as far as I can tell.

    I have no clue about the wizard.
    (Currently afk halfway across the country.)

    Attempting Homebrew:
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Time to brush off the ol' Guilt skill. Remind them that going toe to toe with a wizard in the middle of town puts the guild members into unnecessary danger, and any wizard worth his salt will realize that he's surrounded by potential hostages/human shields/things to throw/soon-to-be-undead. Use your plan to rez her yourself as a back up, but remind the guild that you are in this situation because of their rulings. Helps if your plan is in the end not just weakening you, but also more expensive, so they are even more in the hole.

    Just make sure that you tell as many people as you can first, so the guild cannot rumor monger against you. Use her husband and convince him as well, so if anyone asks he'll tell them that you TRIED to find another way, but nooooo, the guild had its head up where Pelor doesn't shine. Make sure to leave a good impression upon the city before leaving.

    Also, permission to quote 'Man I like this tielfing'?
    Last edited by Honest Tiefling; 2014-11-02 at 09:52 PM.

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    Oko and Qailee's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Ya, dude, go ahead. Haha.
    (Currently afk halfway across the country.)

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    Oko and Qailee's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Note sure how much this helps (was just reminded of it). The bad guy was GIVEN his powers.

    All that tells me is we can do more investigative work.
    (Currently afk halfway across the country.)

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    Jack_Simth's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Note sure how much this helps (was just reminded of it). The bad guy was GIVEN his powers.

    All that tells me is we can do more investigative work.
    That is important: If his powers were given to him, they may be revoked or cut off, as they're not fundamentally his. Cutting his supply is... probably the rail.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Break out your character's hitherto-unmentioned philosophical debates in whatever clerical institution attended to become a cloistered cleric. Bore the DM with hours of in-character dialogue on the values of moral absolutism and deontological ethics until he breaks down and tells you the solution.

    This kind of discussion can be dragged out for decades without a definitive resolution.
    Last edited by Milodiah; 2014-11-02 at 11:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Do not try a linear campaign, without some discussion with them. Players very often look at your hooks and then try to accomplish it in a different way, not touch it, try to do the complete opposite, or somehow set it on fire.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    I'm slightly confused with the language but...okay.

    From what I have seen, some DMs tend to set a really simple (to their own views) and once-for-all answer to such a dilemma. It is sometimes because they would award wits, and because they can then laugh at the foolish PCs who miss the most apparent hints.

    On the other hand, some DMs tend to set very high prices for "playing noble", perhaps because "only willing sacrifice makes up good" sort of ideologies. Which could be your case, too.

    I'm not sure which type is your DM, but if he is more of the latter type, then killing the lady and raise her later with a personal cost of you could be the intended solution.

    But if he is more of the former type...Have you tried to make this lady a member of your ultra-powerful guild? Or have you exploited something of the spell, that can disable it by some other ways? For example, sending the lady to another plane, or making her "dead" by petrifying her or by spells like Temporal Stasis, or anything that could "exclude" her from the spell?
    Or you can try to disable the bad guy's AMF casting ability, which is likely to be one of the possible solutions.
    Last edited by Astralia123; 2014-11-02 at 11:12 PM.

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    Gray Mage's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Maybe he wants you guys to investigate how she got to be the focus or something like that and then break the spell?


    Ignotus Peverell avatar made by the great Bradakhan.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Oko and Qailee's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Thanks for the help and stuff guys, you've been awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    That is important: If his powers were given to him, they may be revoked or cut off, as they're not fundamentally his. Cutting his supply is... probably the rail.
    Me and the LN monk are brainstorming through that now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milodiah View Post
    Break out your character's hitherto-unmentioned philosophical debates in whatever clerical institution attended to become a cloistered cleric. Bore the DM with hours of in-character dialogue on the values of moral absolutism and deontological ethics until he breaks down and tells you the solution.

    This kind of discussion can be dragged out for decades without a definitive resolution.
    Oh man, I don't think I could even keep that going for more than 5 minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astralia123 View Post
    I'm slightly confused with the language but...okay.

    From what I have seen, some DMs tend to set a really simple (to their own views) and once-for-all answer to such a dilemma. It is sometimes because they would award wits, and because they can then laugh at the foolish PCs who miss the most apparent hints.

    On the other hand, some DMs tend to set very high prices for "playing noble", perhaps because "only willing sacrifice makes up good" sort of ideologies. Which could be your case, too.

    I'm not sure which type is your DM, but if he is more of the latter type, then killing the lady and raise her later with a personal cost of you could be the intended solution.

    But if he is more of the former type...Have you tried to make this lady a member of your ultra-powerful guild? Or have you exploited something of the spell, that can disable it by some other ways? For example, sending the lady to another plane, or making her "dead" by petrifying her or by spells like Temporal Stasis, or anything that could "exclude" her from the spell?
    Or you can try to disable the bad guy's AMF casting ability, which is likely to be one of the possible solutions.
    Sorry about the language :(

    The lady is at best a level 2 commoner (most likely a level 1). We haven't actually run into her yet but we know where she is. Odds are the guild wouldn't wanter her as we're considered small fries and we're level 11.

    Knocking her out would be a decent idea. I sadly do not have Flesh to Stone, though the wizard might. Basically any solution within lvl 5 cleric spells to lvl 6 wizards spells is plausible.
    (Currently afk halfway across the country.)

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Lots of DMs tend to assume that anti-magic fields are by their very nature un-dispellable, since it would require use of magic on something that actively cancels magic, but there are ways to dispel an AMF other than the "shoot the hostage" approach the DM has set up for you. What they are vary based on your situation, but if you do a fair bit of both in- and out- of character research you can probably find one. If you cook up something that should work both by RAW and by the internal logic the DM has set up, and he won't let you do it because it'll break up his little trolley-car quandary, then the issue will change from "what options does my character have" to increasingly obvious railroading.

    Spoiler: My slightly spoilerific opinion.
    Show
    Also, it's a trap. No competent wizard would ever let this situation not be a trap.
    Last edited by Milodiah; 2014-11-02 at 11:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Do not try a linear campaign, without some discussion with them. Players very often look at your hooks and then try to accomplish it in a different way, not touch it, try to do the complete opposite, or somehow set it on fire.

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    shaikujin's Avatar

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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    See if you can loan an item of time hop (lvl 3 psionic power) from the guild.

    Have the woman exit the city's AMF (sewers would work if city gates are guarded) with someone that can use the item.

    At an appointed time, activate time hop on the woman and send her to the future for a couple of rounds. If you think your party needs more time, loan an item that will allow her to do this for days. Or have the woman keep re-activating the item if BBEG isn't dead when she re-appears.

    She's now removed from the timestream and not in the city for an amount of time. AMF goes down, kill BBEG.

    Woman re-appears after some time. All without dying etc or using "Evil" means. She's also a few rounds/days younger than other women (possible selling point to the woman).

    Workable? Depends if psionics are allowed and whether the guild has such an item though. But should be more platable to the Good alignment players.

    Not sure if a similar spell exists. I'll try to look if psionics are banned.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: What else can I do? AKA. The child is a Lich! Situation

    Is it possible that somewhere in the city there's another, higher-level divine caster whose powers were disabled by the AMF, but who would gain them back once it's down and who could then revive her for you? Any rumors of a strong but retired healer or something? Just occurred to me that the search for the McGuffin may not stop at the woman herself.

    Alternatively yeah, I'd also try to look into how the AMF was created, how and why she was made to be its focus (I mean, is she otherwise significant? Seems weird she'd just be picked at random. Matter of fact, how do you know it's her?), and how the bad guy got the ability to cast in it (or who gave it to him).

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