Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition

[Morty]

Yeah, that was definitely one of the things that I missed about 3rd-edition rules while playing IWD1: spontaneous healing spells from clerics. It was quite annoying trying to figure out a good balance of healing spells to prepare versus support or offensive ones.

It wasn't much less annoying in IWD2. Either way, it's constant attrition. I suppose I did make a mistake of making my primary divine caster a druid, because Tempus forbid you don't have a 100% functional healbot.

[Zevox]

It wasn't much less annoying in IWD2. Either way, it's constant attrition. I suppose I did make a mistake of making my primary divine caster a druid, because Tempus forbid you don't have a 100% functional healbot.

Nah, it's much less of a problem with a Cleric to spontaneous heal with with. Especially if you've got any sort of backup healer to go with them - a Druid that prepares just a few heal spells, a Bard that knows a couple, even a Paladin or Ranger at high enough levels.

Though you can always just rest a lot, too. That's what ends up happening if you play the game with a solo character who isn't a Cleric. Did that once with a Paladin 1/Sorcerer X myself, was a lot of fun.

[Calemyr]

Dumb question: In the Vale of Shadows, I found this broken armor which is worth an awful lot for a bunch of scrap metal (~200 gold). Actual armor doesn't go for that much. Is this useful in any way or is it just random junk?

[Zevox]

Dumb question: In the Vale of Shadows, I found this broken armor which is worth an awful lot for a bunch of scrap metal (~200 gold). Actual armor doesn't go for that much. Is this useful in any way or is it just random junk?

To my recollection, random junk. Though I don't recall it selling for that much, either, so maybe I'm wrong and have just forgotten about this, or never figured out its usefulness?

[Morty]

Nah, it's much less of a problem with a Cleric to spontaneous heal with with. Especially if you've got any sort of backup healer to go with them - a Druid that prepares just a few heal spells, a Bard that knows a couple, even a Paladin or Ranger at high enough levels.

Though you can always just rest a lot, too. That's what ends up happening if you play the game with a solo character who isn't a Cleric. Did that once with a Paladin 1/Sorcerer X myself, was a lot of fun.

Playing without a cleric wasn't a terribly good idea, no. Reminds me of when I tried to play Temple of Elemental Evil with a druid instead of cleric, and ran into the same annoyance. It's a universal problem with D&D's horrendous health and damage system.

[Cheesegear]

This time, however, my face is a paladin rather than a bard, so instead of asking the guy to hum the tune and comment on it, I just had the routine responses.

Uhh...Doing that quest with a Bard gives you 2500 extra XP.

Also, another idea on how to abuse the BG2 engine. The poop-ton of items you get is off-set by the fact that you can only use one at a time. Not with Dual-Wield! IWD was clearly designed for this! Don't break the game, now!

Paladin
Bard
Fighter 6 - Druid
Ranger 6 - Cleric
Fighter 3 - Thief
Fighter 3 - Mage

During Char Gen, every character puts 2 stars in a Blunt weapon and 2 stars in 2 Weapon Style (except the Paladin and Bard, the Paladin goes Sword and Shield while the Bard picks Slings and Single Weapon Style). This will make the early game a cakewalk. Fighter 3 gives you a third star in 2 Weapons, and now everyone can Dual out.

[Sylthia]

I think 2nd Edition was my favorite in terms of multi/dual classing. Most of my characters from IWD were multiclass of some sort.

Apart from dips into fighter for bonus feats, none of my IWD2 characters are multiclassed.

[Zevox]

I think 2nd Edition was my favorite in terms of multi/dual classing. Most of my characters from IWD were multiclass of some sort.

Apart from dips into fighter for bonus feats, none of my IWD2 characters are multiclassed.

Oh, I hated multiclassing in 2nd edition/IWD1. The requirements were way too convoluted and often made no sense (racial restrictions and humans having a completely different type of it than everyone else especially), and it generally just came across as more trouble than it was worth. In 3rd edition it's much easier to understand and to come up with fun ideas for. Though granted IWD2 being stuck with just the base PHB classes to work with does limit it compared to the edition overall, but you can still do some nice things with it.

[Cheesegear]

Oh, I hated multiclassing in 2nd edition/IWD1.

How is it difficult? You select your Multi-Class and then the RNG'd ability scores literally couldn't give you less than the minimum requirements in your stats. For Multi-Classing, everything in BG/IWD was done for you. That's why Paladins work so well as 'Faces', they literally can't have CHA below 17, and in the computer game, you automatically get a minimum 17. There are no problems. Only a true idiot wouldn't be able to work it out. Problems only exist in the PnP game when you can't roll high enough to get the class you want (even if you rolled six 16s, you still couldn't be a Paladin). But, that's not relevant here, because the computer engine doesn't work like that.

Dual-Classing, yes, is difficult. Because you need to plan for it from the beginning. If your character isn't built from the ground with the required stats to Dual, he can't. That's kind of annoying as you can't decide half way through your adventure that your Fighter wants suddenly be a Mage 'cause he doesn't have the requisite INT score to Dual. Lucky Imoen in BG1 just so happens to have a really good INT score. But, this is a computer game, just have the manual in front of you to work out the minimum requirements for Dual, then you can + or - your stats until you get the one you want. The only reason this might be a problem, is if you're trying to Power Game with 3 or less party members. But if you aren't trying to game the system, make your Fighter planned to Dual to Mage. It doesn't matter that you only have CHA:3, because this is a computer game, and you have five more characters to build, just make another character with high CHA. Due to the way the engine works, just take a Paladin or Bard, who literally can not have low CHA no matter how the RNG rolls.

IWD has the best parties for people who actually want control. In BG1, you were given pre-generated characters for your party. Which leads to things like "Everyone except these 5 characters in a cast of 15 or so, sucks." Then people who defend Baldur's Gate say BUT THE PARTY BANTER! Okay, great, I've heard the banter, you can't tell me the same joke twice, and now my party sucks, just give me back those five characters. IWD, that doesn't happen. If you've read the manual, or just a Dual-Classing Guide, it's really not that difficult.

[Zevox]

How is it difficult? You select your Multi-Class and then the RNG'd ability scores literally couldn't give you less than the minimum requirements in your stats. For Multi-Classing, everything in BG/IWD was done for you. That's why Paladins work so well as 'Faces', they literally can't have CHA below 17, and in the computer game, you automatically get a minimum 17. There are no problems. Only a true idiot wouldn't be able to work it out. Problems only exist in the PnP game when you can't roll high enough to get the class you want (even if you rolled six 16s, you still couldn't be a Paladin). But, that's not relevant here, because the computer engine doesn't work like that.

Dual-Classing, yes, is difficult. Because you need to plan for it from the beginning. If your character isn't built from the ground with the required stats to Dual, he can't. That's kind of annoying as you can't decide half way through your adventure that your Fighter wants suddenly be a Mage 'cause he doesn't have the requisite INT score to Dual. Lucky Imoen in BG1 just so happens to have a really good INT score. But, this is a computer game, just have the manual in front of you to work out the minimum requirements for Dual, then you can + or - your stats until you get the one you want. The only reason this might be a problem, is if you're trying to Power Game with 3 or less party members. But if you aren't trying to game the system, make your Fighter planned to Dual to Mage. It doesn't matter that you only have CHA:3, because this is a computer game, and you have five more characters to build, just make another character with high CHA. Due to the way the engine works, just take a Paladin or Bard, who literally can not have low CHA no matter how the RNG rolls.

IWD has the best parties for people who actually want control. In BG1, you were given pre-generated characters for your party. Which leads to things like "Everyone except these 5 characters in a cast of 15 or so, sucks." Then people who defend Baldur's Gate say BUT THE PARTY BANTER! Okay, great, I've heard the banter, you can't tell me the same joke twice, and now my party sucks, just give me back those five characters. IWD, that doesn't happen. If you've read the manual, or just a Dual-Classing Guide, it's really not that difficult.

I was referring more to dual-classing, which has all the weird requirements for stats that you need to take into account. I just called it multi-classing because my sole exposure to 2nd edition has been IWD1, so I only think of it using that term, which I know from the version of D&D I am familiar with, 3rd edition. And I can say that despite looking up the requirements in advance I actually had to resort to cheats once (in order to avoid restarting entirely) due to missing one of the minimum stat requires of the one dual-class character I was doing, which ticked me off to no end since I had already found trying to plan that out a headache when doing the character creation. (Incidentally, I also loath the random stat generation thing in IWD1, which was part of why that was such a headache.)

Multi-classing still seemed like more trouble than it was worth though, due to the character effectively leveling up at half the pace of the rest of the party. I've seen what even smaller experience penalties from multi-classing in 3rd edition can do to a character, including in IWD2, and that just seemed like a way to leave a character way behind the power curve to me.

Also, I've never played Baldur's Gate, so the ranting regarding that is kind of pointless when directed at me. Besides, isn't Baldur's Gate 2nd edition anyway? I figure it'd have all the same problems from my perspective.

[Cheesegear]

And I can say that despite looking up the requirements in advance

You look at the requirements while making your character. Don't even close the book. If you don't have the requirements you need, start again. If you can't Dual Class, and you're a power gamer, well, IWD isn't the game for you. I've said that. And it doesn't even matter. Because you can swap in, swap out. Starting the game again because your character isn't perfect is exactly the wrong thing to do. You take all the gear off your flawed character, you make a new one, with the same name, but better stats, put him into your party, and then give the new Level 1 character all the gear your Level 9 had, in Chapter 3.

The game doesn't force you to start the game again. The only reason you need to start the game again is because you feel that your character isn't perfect, and that's on you. Not the game.

Multi-classing still seemed like more trouble than it was worth though

It's not. XP generation is huge. Since the game is linear, you're exactly as powerful as you need to be in any given area. Unless say, more than half of your party has been shafted back to Level 1. Multi-Classed or not. By the time you reach the point where XP generation gets slower (around Level 12 or so), you have more than enough gear to make up the difference. Multi- and Dual-Classed characters have the easiest time in IWD by far.

Also, I've never played Baldur's Gate, so the ranting regarding that is kind of pointless when directed at me.

I can count on one hand the number of people in the Gaming (Other) section of The Playground - that I've seen - who haven't played BG1. So, that's my mistake. My point was, IWD lets you make all six characters to your liking. It doesn't matter if your character has low INT, WIS or CHA, because that's not how the game is meant to be played, and you aren't stuck with pre-genned characters so one character doesn't have to be perfect like in BG1.

[Cespenar]

Even though I love BG, IWD and the like, one has to admit that the dual/multiclassing rules in 2nd ed is just bonkers. Even hardcore 2nd ed players acknowledge that.

Despite that, it's fun in IWD.

[Cheesegear]

Even though I love BG, IWD and the like, one has to admit that the dual/multiclassing rules in 2nd ed is just bonkers.

Oh, for sure. But in BG/IWD, the engine does most of the work for you. It's not exactly straightforward, but that's why the games come with manuals. If you can read BG/IWD's walls of text, surely you can give a few minutes reading the game's manual or looking up a Multi/Dual Class guide.

[Zevox]

You look at the requirements while making your character. Don't even close the book.

That would require me to have an actual book. I don't - I got the game off GoG, as part of a bunch of games I bought alongside IWD2 because they were having a weird sale where buying more D&D games meant more discounts, so it was cheapest for me to get a bunch of them despite the only one I was really looking for being IWD2, because my disc copy no longer worked. I have a PDF of the instruction manual, but no physical manual.

Starting the game again because your character isn't perfect is exactly the wrong thing to do. [..]

The game doesn't force you to start the game again. The only reason you need to start the game again is because you feel that your character isn't perfect, and that's on you. Not the game.

And I didn't - I cheated instead.

Look, my example was just to show why I dislike 2nd-edition multi-classing - or dual-classing, whichever it is (though really, I think both are far inferior to how 3rd edition handles the matter). There's so many strange little requirements for it that I actually looked them up in advance the one time I played the game and still didn't get them all right because of overlooking one small one. It's an element of the game design - independent of IWD itself, part of the edition of D&D specifically - that I find quite poorly handled. One of more than a few in that edition, if IWD1 is a faithful recreation of those rules.

[Cheesegear]

That would require me to have an actual book. I don't - I got the game off GoG

So? The manual is in the installation folder. It's a .pdf, I'm looking at it right now. Unless your RAM is so shot that you can't Alt-Tab for fear of crashing the game.

[Zevox]

So? The manual is in the installation folder. It's a .pdf, I'm looking at it right now. Unless your RAM is so shot that you can't Alt-Tab for fear of crashing the game.

Do you actually read my post past the line that you quote? I mentioned that I have a PDF of it, so obviously I know that.

What you mean by alt-tab, though, I don't know.

[Cheesegear]

What you mean by alt-tab, though, I don't know.

You don't know Alt-Tab? Uhh...

Anyway, here's a quick guide. You only need to know two numbers. 15 and 17. In order to Dual, you need 15 in your Primary stat, and 17 in your new stat.

Fighter (STR); Cleric (WIS), Druid (True Neutral, CHA), Thief (DEX), Mage (INT)
Ranger (STR); Cleric (WIS)
Cleric (WIS); Fighter (STR)
Thief (DEX); Fighter (STR), Mage (INT)

Mage (INT) who cares, Dualling from Mage is the worst decision you can make.

As long as you remember the numbers 15 and 17 (not 17 and 15), you're gold. Dualling is that easy.

[Zevox]

You don't know Alt-Tab? Uhh...

No, I don't.

And I don't need a guide. I played the game once, last year, and don't intend to do so again. I was discussing my opinion of the mechanic here because the topic came up, nothing more.

[Triaxx]

And just for reference, you could actually make your entire party in BG1/2. You simply started the game in Multiplayer, made your characters and then saved the game. Then you'd simply move the save to the single player folder. Boom, instant custom party.

[huttj509]

You look at the requirements while making your character. Don't even close the book. If you don't have the requirements you need, start again. If you can't Dual Class, and you're a power gamer, well, IWD isn't the game for you. I've said that. And it doesn't even matter. Because you can swap in, swap out. Starting the game again because your character isn't perfect is exactly the wrong thing to do. You take all the gear off your flawed character, you make a new one, with the same name, but better stats, put him into your party, and then give the new Level 1 character all the gear your Level 9 had, in Chapter 3.

So, question...um, how do you add a character to your party in IWD EE? I found "manage party" where I could remove someone, and I found how to export characters, but not how to import one.

[Cheesegear]

So, question...um, how do you add a character to your party in IWD EE?

You should be on the screen by default every time you load a game. You can't miss it.

In the original, there's a button for Character Arbitration (Hotkey: C). It should look exactly like your Party Formation screen when you were generating your original characters at the start.This is not your character's profile, that should be 'R' (although you can Export from there). If you're reading your character's stats, you're on the wrong screen.

Click 'Modify Characters', this enables the ability to click on your characters. When you click on your character, it should give the option of Create or Delete. If you hit 'Create', it's exactly the same as if you'd started again, and Import should be in the bottom right, same as it always is.

The other scenario, is that by jamming BG2's engine into a game that wasn't designed for it, EE has removed the 'swap in, swap out' functionality from IWD, which will make the game terrible as you roll into loot that nobody in your party can use. Somebody with the EE should probably confirm.


EDIT: Certainly looks like the functionality has been removed, since BG2's interface only allows the party screen during multi-player. Reading EE's manual says that 'Hotkey: C' still exists, but that it's for multi-player only. Press 'C' in Single Player. See what happens.

[Sylthia]

XP is more exponential in 2nd ed compared to 3rd Ed's linear, so a multiclass character will usually only be a level or two behind a full class character, rather than at half.

I understand your confusion over 2nd Ed XP system, though.

[Chen]

XP is more exponential in 2nd ed compared to 3rd Ed's linear, so a multiclass character will usually only be a level or two behind a full class character, rather than at half.

I understand your confusion over 2nd Ed XP system, though.

Yeah a fighter/wizard multiclass I believe would be one fighter level and one mage level behind a full wizard in 2nd edition, assuming equal xp. Thats WELL worth it. I don't recall what a fighter 9/Mage x dual class gets to compared to a full mage, but it's also ridiculous. Especially since after 9th level you stopped rolling dice for hit points. So you abuse the hell out of your 9 fighter hit dice, then get your full mage progression after.

Dual or multiclassing in 2nd edition was WAY better than just going straight class. The only reason not to do it was if you wanted to play a class that couldn't (Druid and Paladin I believe, maybe Bard).

[Sylthia]

Yeah a fighter/wizard multiclass I believe would be one fighter level and one mage level behind a full wizard in 2nd edition, assuming equal xp. Thats WELL worth it. I don't recall what a fighter 9/Mage x dual class gets to compared to a full mage, but it's also ridiculous. Especially since after 9th level you stopped rolling dice for hit points. So you abuse the hell out of your 9 fighter hit dice, then get your full mage progression after.

Dual or multiclassing in 2nd edition was WAY better than just going straight class. The only reason not to do it was if you wanted to play a class that couldn't (Druid and Paladin I believe, maybe Bard).

I think Druid could multiclass to Fighter and maybe Ranger.

Edit: Nope, not Ranger, forgot about Alignment restrictions.

[Triaxx]

If single-player is missing character arbitration, the trick of moving a single-player game to the Multi-player folder should still work. I don't remember the exact method of playing multi-player by yourself, but it shouldn't be hard to work out.

[Feytalist]

Even though I love BG

With a name like that, one would hope so

I don't recall what a fighter 9/Mage x dual class gets to compared to a full mage, but it's also ridiculous.

At that point, a single battle's worth of XP could easily be enough to get you from Mage 1 to Mage 5 all at once. It obviously evens out a bit later, but even dual classes catch up quick.

[Chen]

At that point, a single battle's worth of XP could easily be enough to get you from Mage 1 to Mage 5 all at once. It obviously evens out a bit later, but even dual classes catch up quick.

Oh for sure the early levels just fly by. I was more trying to recall what level a fighter 9/mage X would be compared to the Xp of a pure mage 20 say.

[Cheesegear]

I was more trying to recall what level a fighter 9/mage X would be compared to the Xp of a pure mage 20 say.

The tables in the book only go to Level 15. But the XP differences at those levels are so minor. You'd be looking at

Fighter 9-Mage 19, or a Mage 20.
I think it's more like 9-18, but I can't really check because the book doesn't go higher than 15.

The Fighter 9 has around 80 extra HPs, +9 THAC0, and five extra proficiency stars. The Mage 20 has an extra Level 8 and 9 spell slot.

Tenser's Transformation makes a Fighter/Mage broken as poop. Not to mention there's quite a few Fighter/Mage only items in the game. At that level, it doesn't really matter how you're over-powered, just that you are. If casting two extra spells per Rest stop is your jam, then by all means, be a Mage 20. But, remember, that to be a Mage 20, you have to play Levels 1-19 first, and that's some weaksauce, especially if you don't RNG into the right scrolls. The Fighter/Mage can use any of the great and powerful magical Long Bows in the game. The Mage is stuck with a Sling, and any good magical Slings that you come across are getting given to your Ranger/Cleric, Ranger-Cleric or Fighter-Druid.

[Sylthia]

The tables in the book only go to Level 15. But the XP differences at those levels are so minor. You'd be looking at

Fighter 9-Mage 19, or a Mage 20.
I think it's more like 9-18, but I can't really check because the book doesn't go higher than 15.

The Fighter 9 has around 80 extra HPs, +9 THAC0, and five extra proficiency stars. The Mage 20 has an extra Level 8 and 9 spell slot.

Tenser's Transformation makes a Fighter/Mage broken as poop. Not to mention there's quite a few Fighter/Mage only items in the game. At that level, it doesn't really matter how you're over-powered, just that you are. If casting two extra spells per Rest stop is your jam, then by all means, be a Mage 20. But, remember, that to be a Mage 20, you have to play Levels 1-19 first, and that's some weaksauce, especially if you don't RNG into the right scrolls. The Fighter/Mage can use any of the great and powerful magical Long Bows in the game. The Mage is stuck with a Sling, and any good magical Slings that you come across are getting given to your Ranger/Cleric, Ranger-Cleric or Fighter-Druid.

The 2nd ed XP tables can be found here.
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/xp_tables.php

[Cheesegear]

The 2nd ed XP tables can be found here.
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/xp_tables.php

Fair enough. You end up with a Fighter 9-Mage 19, vastly superior to a Mage 20, especially when you factor in gear.