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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Talakeal's Avatar

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    Default Re: DM Issues: Dealing with a DM with much less experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Because what he described is nothing at all like playing freeform RPG.

    Exaggerating DM rulings to make them sound more arbitrary, or more common, than they are, is a component of the kind of rules lawyering that shuts down games.

    To the OP: If you are trying to convince the DM about a ruling, keep the discussion on that ruling, and don't exaggerate the DM's actions beyond what he's really doing.
    I don't think I am exaggerating anything, NichG was saying that he is the rulebook, anything else is a guideline, he doesn't care what the rules say, and if you don't like it leave. I was simply stating that I think with that level of apathy towards the game's rules in favor of a DM's ability to tell a story you might as well run a freeform game. I don't think that is a bad thing, I have played a lot of freeform over the years (I was actually my first RPG experience as back in grade school they banned dice on campus) and have had a great time with it.


    As for me personally, in my current D&D game I am playing a single classed core only human fighter with my highest stats in charisma and wisdom. Hardly game-breaking or exploitative by anyone's definition, yet I honestly don't think I have ever gone two encounters without having a rules legal action vetoed and sometimes as often as three or four times in one scene. I try and correct the DM maybe half the time, but I have never continued arguing after the point where he tells me that his ruling stands.
    Honestly though, I think I have a bit of a special case and am therefore overly sensitive to this sort of thing. Because the DM I deal with actually insists that his rulings ARE RAW, and that I am simply misreading or misremembering it (and I DO NOT whip out the book and continue to argue as that would be disruptive and disrespectful). He actually goes so far that when we the group is sitting around shooting the poop before or after the game he corrects people's stories about previous campaigns telling them that there actions were illegal or should have been banned by the DM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ettina View Post
    Just enjoy the game and stop worrying about the rules. The rules should be a crutch, not a straightjacket. As long as it makes a good story and you're having fun, who cares if you're not following the exact wording of the rules?
    It depends on whether you are using your leeway to allow things or shut them down. This goes both ways. I have seen games end because a player wouldn't allow a DM to give their NPC a unique ability or perform a difficult task without rolling, but I have also seen games end when a DM wouldn't allow a player to do something they wanted to do that was rules legal.
    In my experience problems arise from the DM or players not only using the rules as a straight jacket and then adding a few manacles of their own for good measure.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2014-11-10 at 03:23 PM.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: DM Issues: Dealing with a DM with much less experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I don't think I am exaggerating anything, NichG was saying that he is the rulebook, anything else is a guideline, he doesn't care what the rules say, and if you don't like it leave. I was simply stating that I think with that level of apathy towards the game's rules in favor of a DM's ability to tell a story you might as well run a freeform game.
    None of which changes this one basic fact:

    Having the rules as guidelines is different from not having the rules as guidelines.

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: DM Issues: Dealing with a DM with much less experience.

    Talakeal is technically right. If I'm the DM, and what I say goes, we are playing a kind of freeform game. Technically.

    But it's not like I'm going to poop all over the game and make insane rulings just because I claim the power to. That'd be idiotic and my players would walk. Even if I get to be the game's dictator, if I claim to be playing DnD 3.5 to a group of players, I better deliver something at least close enough to 3.5 that everyone finds agreeable.

    So, in practice, it's not really anything like a freeform RP.

    If this kind of environment ends up being unfun for you as a player, then I would think it's much easier and more fun to get a better DM than to give up on the DM dictatorship style and make yourself play only freeform games or pure RAW games.
    Last edited by Vitruviansquid; 2014-11-10 at 08:19 PM.
    It always amazes me how often people on forums would rather accuse you of misreading their posts with malice than re-explain their ideas with clarity.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Talakeal's Avatar

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    Default Re: DM Issues: Dealing with a DM with much less experience.

    It is a continiuum. I prefer to play games that follow mostly RAW but with pre arranged house rules and enough DM leeway to fix exploits and unusual situations.

    I am fine with pure RAW or pure freeform. What I dont like is people who play with a very rigid but still up to DM fiat setup because that usually boils down to a "no you cant" style of game which in my experiance is frustrating for whomever is on the receiving end of it be they player or dm.

    The game Nagash described seemd to be so far down the continuum that I wonder why he doesnt just play freeform as that would, in my experiance, allow him the relaxed and adaptible situation he seems to prefer.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Sartharina's Avatar

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    Default Re: DM Issues: Dealing with a DM with much less experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    It is a continiuum. I prefer to play games that follow mostly RAW but with pre arranged house rules and enough DM leeway to fix exploits and unusual situations.

    I am fine with pure RAW or pure freeform. What I dont like is people who play with a very rigid but still up to DM fiat setup because that usually boils down to a "no you cant" style of game which in my experiance is frustrating for whomever is on the receiving end of it be they player or dm.

    The game Nagash described seemd to be so far down the continuum that I wonder why he doesnt just play freeform as that would, in my experiance, allow him the relaxed and adaptible situation he seems to prefer.
    You also have serious trust issues after being screwed over by terrible players as both a DM and player yourself.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: DM Issues: Dealing with a DM with much less experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    It is a continiuum. I prefer to play games that follow mostly RAW but with pre arranged house rules and enough DM leeway to fix exploits and unusual situations.

    I am fine with pure RAW or pure freeform. What I dont like is people who play with a very rigid but still up to DM fiat setup because that usually boils down to a "no you cant" style of game which in my experiance is frustrating for whomever is on the receiving end of it be they player or dm.

    The game Nagash described seemd to be so far down the continuum that I wonder why he doesnt just play freeform as that would, in my experiance, allow him the relaxed and adaptible situation he seems to prefer.
    a couple reasons.

    1. freeform kinda sucks IMO. I like having a framework to build around. Thats not the same as having that framework be a maximum security cell in pelican bay i am locked into though. Which is what a RAW game is.

    and 2. Pathfinder DOES allow me to have exactly that relaxed and adaptable situation I prefer. I have a quick chat with any new player that basically goes "dont worry too much about the rules, just tell me what you want your character to do in any situation and I'll let you know what to roll.

    *** I do this also because we play lots of different systems and usually most of the group doesnt know any given system all that well and telling players "heya this game is cool, go buy a new 300 page rulebook for 50$, read it through, and then we can play it and you'll see" usually does not go over real well.

    Its a lot easier to just have players describe their characters intentions and either let them know what to roll or quickly ad hoc if I'm not sure myself.
    Last edited by Nagash; 2014-11-12 at 12:59 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: DM Issues: Dealing with a DM with much less experience.

    Don.t talk, just write whatever rule he.s getting wrong in a paper and hand it to him, this way, you two dont argue, he just reads it and keep playing...

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