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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    Honestly, my group didn't have this much of an issue when we realized we had blown up a yacht full of innocent people, Spec Ops: The Line style. It was real somber when from that point on, and our commander pretty much put us on suicide-mission duty after that, but we never blamed the guy who did it (we'd had a discussion of whether or not to sink the ship, "no" won out, and then I inadvertently handed the detonator to a murderhobo-y PC who proceeded to clack it on the spot). And it sounds to me like the players had set themselves up for their own misery just like we did...they chose to attack the BBEG. There should be consequences for that if he's REALLY that much more powerful than the group.
    Last edited by Milodiah; 2014-11-05 at 09:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Do not try a linear campaign, without some discussion with them. Players very often look at your hooks and then try to accomplish it in a different way, not touch it, try to do the complete opposite, or somehow set it on fire.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Cikomyr's Avatar

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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    First of all, congratulations on making your player feel so much for your character. Like everyone said, that's storytelling done RIGHT.

    Second, do not bring her back. Like many people said; it would cheapen the emotional toll of the loss. Let death have meaning, let it resonnate across your campaign.

    Your players need closure. Somehow. That can be provided in a multitude of ways, some people actually gave good ideas:

    - Revenge. Getting back at the BBEG, or whomever they feel is responsible for that NPC's death. Make them pay for their crime, or save the world "once more, for her".

    - Good byes. This is a bit cheesy, but you often see in magical fiction the spirit of mentor/caregivers appear one last time at the right time to give her final farewell. Telling them how much she had a fulfilling life, and how she cannot be prouder of having sacrificed herself for a group as worthy as them. Warning: done well, your group will cry their hearts out.

    - Legacy. Like people said; make sure she is remembered by in-universe. Make a statue in her name. Have her canonized as a Saint. Bring a special item she was fond of to her heir/apprentice/long lost children, and have your player explain to that "heir" how much she meant to them.

    I personally prefer the 2nd and 3rd option more. If you can somehow weave the "Good Byes" into the narrative; it'd be even greater. Have the NPC's spirit intervene in a critical moment to provide healing one last time, and say her farewells..

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post

    Bring a special item she was fond of to her heir/apprentice/long lost children, and have your player explain to that "heir" how much she meant to them.
    Well, now I can't help but picture the Christopher Walken scene from Pulp Fiction.
    Last edited by Milodiah; 2014-11-05 at 09:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Do not try a linear campaign, without some discussion with them. Players very often look at your hooks and then try to accomplish it in a different way, not touch it, try to do the complete opposite, or somehow set it on fire.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Inspectre's Avatar

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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    Okay, having read your additional explanation, I have to say that what you did was PERFECT.
    You provided your players with a chance to feel a very strong emotion - grief - spared them from a TPK that you nor they wanted, presented logical consequences for their high risk attack that failed, and gave them a big reason to ultimately hate the BBEG.
    It sounds like this was a fairly earned setback for the party given that the dice went against them - sometimes, **** just happens.
    What you need to do now is to let them express that grief, before it drains away over the next couple weeks.

    Just out of curiosity, did you happen to play this as Terial was struck down? (Bonus points if you did! )

    More seriously, that video has a good point in it, with the villain monologuing over his victim's corpse and the hero just telling him to SHUT UP.
    Right now, the players don't give a rat's ass about the BBEG or his plan or anything else.
    They want catharsis, a chance to process what just happened and deal with the loss - and given that your game is about emotional investment, that's *exactly* what you should give them!

    For the long term, you can decide whether to have Terial brought back to life or what the fallout is from her death later.
    For this coming week, you should provide the party with a chance to vent their grief - don't rub their noses in it with disgust from other NPCs ("you let her die!"), or taunts from the BBEG.
    Just let them have one session to completely decompress and actually act out what their characters are feeling without you needling them about how you went and killed their favorite NPC.
    (Yes, the alternative was probably worse, but you were still the one that had Terial show up to save them, and die for it - not wounded, not maimed, not captured, but killed. Your players are justified in holding you, the DM, responsible for that, and trying to shift the blame to your BBEG is likely only to piss them off more.)

    So here's what I recommend - get your players together in-person or via email, and tell them that next session will be special in that it will focus on Terial's funeral.
    You didn't plan on this happening, but since that's what happened the group as a whole might as well make the most of it and express what the characters are feeling, just as you said you wanted the game to be about at the start. As such, each player should consider if they want to speak a brief in-character eulogy at the funeral, or tell some story about their character and Terial and what she meant to them at the wake, or however in general they wish to express their grief. That will give them time to think how they want their character to react and make them feel like they have a say - and it will give you a chance to gauge their reactions. They probably won't like having Terial's death made "official" and placed front and center, but they should appreciate the effort to give her death the gravitas that it deserves - not a throwaway act by the BBEG ("Mwahah, look how evil I am! I just killed your favorite NPC!"). That said, if they don't react favorably, you may have to resort to figuring out a way to bring Terial back into the game lest her death grow into "a thing" that poisons the rest of the game. (Years from now, you want your players to say "Woah, do you remember that funeral scene we all did, and how we came back from that to kick the BBEG's ass?" not "Woah, do you remember how awesome that one game was, until the DM went axe-crazy and KILLED our favorite NPC!?")

    So, next session make it entirely about the funeral - no fights (at least for the first half), no apocalyptic war (the enemy stopped to consolidate their gains, or got thrown into disarray after meeting more resistance in town than expected, or they creepily just . . . stopped . . . advancing for now, whatever), no Terial replacement this session, no taunts from the BBEG. The decision was made to use the temporary lull in fighting to hold a funeral for everyone who's died in the recent fights for the city and the town, and some of the other NPCs the party knows want to hold a private ceremony for Terial. Have them all get together around a marker, or lit paper lantern, or whatever you want to have them use as a symbol for Terial's grave (I'm assuming they don't have her body). Everyone gets a turn for a parting eulogy. Followed by a wake where their characters can get drunk and swap stories with friendly, understanding NPCs who also knew Terial (bonus points if you can come up with an NPC story that reveals something the PCs never knew about Terial). This should also call back past events from the campaign where the players interacted with Terial - helped her out, got rescued by her, first met her, all that.

    After that, have a reading of her will - as it turns out, she had one just in case (there is a war going on after all), and she included the PCs in it. This can be used as an opportunity to give them a few minor treasures if they need the money/magic items, or extra healing resources (Terial is there to see to it that they get patched up one last time ) - but more importantly, if there's any minor item that you've ever described Terial as having - some sort of signature pen, comb, whatever - she bequeaths it to one of the PCs. Ideally there's some small parting token for each member of the party, but largely this is another way to bring back memories of past adventures and interactions with Terial.

    Finally, if there's still time after all that, then you can start to segue back into adventuring. If there's any old enemies or unfinished business that involved Terial, have it show up now and let the players finish it for her. If there isn't any, make some up - some people that Terial was helping come to the party asking for their help since she's not around anymore. Again, if you can tie it back in to some old adventure they went on for Terial earlier in the campaign, that would be great.

    Basically, make next session an extended "good-bye" episode, and let the players reminisce and wrap-up any remaining issues surrounding Terial, while also potentially creating some hooks for later with carrying on her legacy (or going and dragging her kicking and screaming out of whatever happy afterlife she's justly in now, y'know, whichever!)

    Then, in another week or two after that, when you're sure they've calmed down a bit more, you can work on implementing whatever plan you ultimately settle on regarding Terial (replacing her, having the PCs carry on her legacy, having the PCs rescue her, or just have her reincarnated somehow - whatever).


    Some other thoughts for later:

    If you want your players to go absolutely, murderously berserk (we're talking "I chop off his limbs, coat him in honey, and roll him into the mass of army ants so I can hear him scream as he dies" berserk) have the enemy desecrate Terial's body - either by animating her as a zombie, or simply mounting her lifeless body to a banner that marches at the head of their army in an about-to-horribly-backfire attempt at demoralizing them further).

    ORRRRRRRR

    One other option not mentioned yet as a way to have Terial come back is to have her come back as an enemy. The BBEG could either turn her into some sort of intelligent undead bent to his will, or a full-on Resurrection, followed immediately by a heavy dose of brainwashing. Then the party learns about some new lieutenant of the BBEG's who's off causing trouble, but when they go to pick off said lieutenant in an act of revenge, well . . . surprise! Or, as perhaps more fits Terial's nature, perhaps the PCs are sent to a currently-neutral neighboring nation to try to get them involved in the war, only to find that the BBEG has already sent an emissary to do the same thing for his side . . . guess who his ambassador is. If you do this, though, I would recommend setting up the situation where they have a chance to interact (i.e. Talk) with the corrupted Terial, rather than a straight up fight with a monster that's only wearing Terial's face because you want to stick it to them one more time. Give them a chance to figure out a way to talk her down or un-brainwash her - that's another classic tale you can use, and it can set up an interesting dilemma for the players whether they should cut down their old friend, or risk everything to try to "snap her out of it".

    Whatever you go with though, please let us know what you did and how your players reacted (and what, if any, your plans are for the future). I'm very interested in what happens next!

    EDIT: One final thought, well two actually. First, you said that you are playing an emotionally invested game - well, there are other emotions than anger, hate, and grief. Those three also tend to be incredibly draining, and so if you try to illicit them too much, your players will become numb and indifferent to all the horrors you are presenting them with. You need to mix other more positive events in (up-notes) in order to keep them level and prevent that exhaustion from happening. I'm sure there would be few better ways to induce a "happy" response than to, after an appropriate period of mourning and time to prevent it from feeling cheap or that you're going back on a prior decision, to either bring Terial back in some fashion or let them know that she's safe and happy in the afterlife.

    Similarly, I'm going to have to disagree with the multiple suggestions to make Terial's soul a prisoner of the BBEG, especially if she's stuck in his sword or other object on his person. The problem with this idea is once again you've redirected everyone to go chasing after your BBEG, only this time with saving their friend as the motivation instead of pure revenge. This sounds like a good idea, but the problem is that you've still reduced their favorite NPC to nothing more than a plot point by "stuffing her in the fridge", as it were, and this tends to not be viewed as a good thing. Worse, if it's something on the BBEG, then likely the only way to get Terial back is some convoluted plan to grab the item and run away, or kill your BBEG. And assuming that this is your real, final, end-game BBEG, then that means their chance of getting to enjoy their reward for defeating him (Terial's soul) is pretty much 0%, because when the BBEG dies most games tend to be over (you can extend things out or have them play through an epilogue, of course, but it's usually not quite the same). Also, if it takes them an entire year in real-life to bring about this villain's downfall, well, that's an entire year of you dangling this carrot of their friend over their heads, and they'd have a right to still be pissed off at you over that.
    Last edited by Inspectre; 2014-11-06 at 06:09 AM.
    I didn't actually intend to kill EVERYONE. It just sort of happened.

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  5. - Top - End - #35
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Cikomyr's Avatar

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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milodiah View Post
    Well, now I can't help but picture the Christopher Walken scene from Pulp Fiction.
    way to ruin a perfectly emotional argument

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inspectre View Post
    Okay, having read your additional explanation, I have to say that what you did was PERFECT.
    You provided your players with a chance to feel a very strong emotion - grief - spared them from a TPK that you nor they wanted, presented logical consequences for their high risk attack that failed, and gave them a big reason to ultimately hate the BBEG.
    It sounds like this was a fairly earned setback for the party given that the dice went against them - sometimes, **** just happens.
    What you need to do now is to let them express that grief, before it drains away over the next couple weeks.
    Thank you very much for the praise and the excellent advice for the next session... I've already sent out a text to everyone that next session will be mostly role-play and it will give them a chance to recoup and reconcile. (I'd like to keep the exact details a little bit of a secret.)

    Last session we ended just before the they entered the "war room." So it's a perfect start to tell the players the enemy is doing nothing. In there I'll have the head minds having an argument about what the battle plan should be, letting the PCs chime in of course, and then have another recurring NPC say something about the moral of the men and get everyone to agree to have a service for the lost. (Details of the conversation still scrambled, I may play that by ear)

    If the players go for it, then my job is easy. During the service I can re-introduce past PCs and spark a few memories of old characters the players used to have. (three story arches had involved her) I can also give Terial's daughter, who has been a background NPC so far, a bit of a spot light. (Don't worry, the only thing she shares with Terial, are the healing abilities and the power level, kind of a magical prodigy) After the service the wake will be held in the inn that all the PCs, past and present, first met Terial, as it's her inn. She named it the "New Bee Inn" (I was hit many time for the name) In the inn there was a table (table number 7) the the players new would spontaneously break as if some one were thrown through it, Terial would always mend the table only for it to break in half for no apparent reason a few hours later. I haven't yet decided if I'll have it break while they are there.

    Anyway there they can share memories with other NPCs, and be told stories of her exploits. After that I'll have a party of old PCs invite the new party to a place where Terial had save them. (an old cave from a past campaign where the old party and Terial hid from enemy troops) There I can have a, PC turned NPC, "accidentally" find a secret path that leads to a note Terial left behind long ago, that offers advice as well as a way to defeat the BBEG and his army.

    And a few sessions down, I can bring up Terials daughter again, asking to tag along or help out in some way. I'll figure out the details of that later.

    Sound good? or am i way off base?
    Signet, the eternal.

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    On an island where many NPCs were slaughtered by ooze monsters while the party tried desperately to escape. Ah, Memories.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    The only thing I'd have to disagree with you on is the "way to defeat the enemy" thing concerning the note. First, you'd think she would have brought that up while she was alive, and second, military strategy is nearly impossible to distill down to something that can be left as some sort of hidden will in advance, especially if it had been there for years.

    Perhaps the existence of said hidden cave system would be your edge over the enemy, after all a network of tunnels unknown to the enemy is a massive tactical-operational advantage, even moving up to the strategic in terms of troop mobility and asymmetric warfare.
    Last edited by Milodiah; 2014-11-06 at 11:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Do not try a linear campaign, without some discussion with them. Players very often look at your hooks and then try to accomplish it in a different way, not touch it, try to do the complete opposite, or somehow set it on fire.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milodiah View Post
    The only thing I'd have to disagree with you on is the "way to defeat the enemy" thing concerning the note. First, you'd think she would have brought that up while she was alive, and second, military strategy is nearly impossible to distill down to something that can be left as some sort of hidden will in advance, especially if it had been there for years.

    Perhaps the existence of said hidden cave system would be your edge over the enemy, after all a network of tunnels unknown to the enemy is a massive tactical-operational advantage, even moving up to the strategic in terms of troop mobility and asymmetric warfare.
    I didn't mean i a note saying do this and BBEG dies. but more like a clue to an ancient artifact that would give a massive advantage. (this requires a bit of an explanation sorry) The first campaign I ran in this world was a war against gods, the players killed the old pantheon and took their place but remained "hands off" in the material plane. Not because they wanted to but because the BBEG sealed the material plane off. Magic is kind of messed up right now in the world because of this, but every assumes it's because of the new pantheon. The note will explain that she theorized this and she may know of a way to break the seal. She didn't bring it up to anyone because she never managed to investigate further, and thus the theory would have remained purely hypothetical. She didn't want the armies of good clinging to a false hope. I'm still writing the letter out but that's kind of the gist of it. also the hidden part of the cave would have been littered with evidence that some one had been there more recently.
    Signet, the eternal.

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

    Where did you start yours?

    On an island where many NPCs were slaughtered by ooze monsters while the party tried desperately to escape. Ah, Memories.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    Alternatively, the note could point them towards a cache of weapons/artifacts left by the old gods. I've always been a fan of truly ancient things that by all rights shouldn't exist.
    Check out my Campaign World, Hiltmarch
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Metahuman1's Avatar

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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    You know, all the people suggesting revenge seem to have missed something critically important.

    You have successfully taught the PC's that there incapable of winning against this guy and his armies. He is not something they have any hope of beating. Probably not something anyone has any hope of beating. A high level NPC that's survived several campaigns had to die just to give them time to try to run.



    Honestly, if she'd died but she'd crippled him and they'd managed to follow up by killing him before leaving, I think they'd be better off emotionally right now. But that's not what happened. Not even close, not form what you described.


    There likely not gonna fight in anything that isn't a willful suicide attack because there too overcome with Grief to think straight. Because now they know for a fact that any option that isn't running is suicide for all involved, form experience, and if you take the run option away form them as the DM right about now I'd honestly be surprised if they don't just rage quit the game on the spot at that point cause there was officially never a point except to angst, and they never had a prayer. (If a player is making a scene in a public place with language that can potentially be misunderstood out of context by those who over hear it, what with it being a public place, that you might have deliberately killed a real person, we are officially at a point were that is a concern.)





    And what sucks about that the most? Revenge Combined with a plot necessitated trip to a good aligned after life on a fetch quest or something would have been your best fix really. (The latter being that on the way back to the prime materiel they could meet her and speak to her one final time and be firmly assured she's happy and she's ok and she forgives/doesn't blame them at all and she's not in pain and she's in a better place and to let it go and live there lives and so on and so forth being made crystal clear for them.) The problem is even if you give them the latter now, which you can still due, they'll almost certainly not seek the former, for that route is, as mentioned, ritualized suicide.








    Honestly, Right about now, the only thing I can think of that would make this fly would be to give them some stuff that will dramatically up the odds in there favor so that they can attempt revenge, and then give them the parting talk with her soul that's already on a good aligned plane of existence/afterlife. I'm fond of an Ancient Army of Golems they manage to awaken under there command and a few Legacy Weapons with special powers that they can go earn via challenges in the different planes of good/after lives over several sessions. Though these will likely need to be homebrew as many of the legacy weapons have nice fluff but sub-par ability's. And maybe instead of a legacy weapon like a legacy spell book or legacy holy symbol or some such for your more caster-ish PC's.


    What is your party's composition anyway? If there low op a minor training sub-plot to give them a few levels and feats and what not that are better optimized might help. (Example: The Blaster Wizard suddenly finds out some of the cool stuff he can do with Transmuation and Conjuration, or Illusion, or How Useful Divination really is. The Fighter discovers being a martial initiator and get's some warblade levels. The Monk is trained by a master of an obscure order and picks up Tashlorana and a couple of Psi-warrior levels. The Druid finds some better spells and wild shape forms to use, the cleric learns how to DMM persist, the rouge snags a couple of sword sage levels and learns how to use shadow hand, or a couple of factotum levels and learns to use Knowledge devotion or Iai-Jutsu Focus + Gnome Quick Razors, the Bard learns the words of creation and unlocks his ability to dragon's fire inspiration, and maybe develops the ability to tap the primal music and picks up levels in Seeker of the Song for a couple of levels. The Paladin get's a couple of levels of Crusader and starts learning feats and paladin spells form outside the PHB 1. So on.)
    "I Burn!"

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    D&D games revolve around the player characters growing in power, though...they'll be able to defeat the BBEG at some point, or it'd be a pretty crappy campaign. Fortunately for us the Draugr Rules don't apply.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Do not try a linear campaign, without some discussion with them. Players very often look at your hooks and then try to accomplish it in a different way, not touch it, try to do the complete opposite, or somehow set it on fire.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    I'm not familiar with that reference and the link won't work for me (I keep getting problem loading page.) so I can only try to respond to that post correctly and advise you that the response might not be correct.


    The problem with that is that the OP has established that this game, and possible the previous one's if not probably the previous ones, doesn't in fact revolve around that as a central element. That that element takes a distant back seat to Emotional involvements and reactions and in universe logic's that lead to those emotional involvement's and reactions and as such, it's a none factor. That even if there gaining levels and the baseline resources that come with those, the baseline assumption has become that no matter what, there never strong enough to take this guy.


    If Meta does come into it, it get's worse, because now that there running on emotion, there running on emotions that tell them "the DM's Not playing fair and has Fiated this BBEG to be either unbeatable or only beatable in his predetermined fashion and will punish us for trying or for deviating form it respectively" and thus, makes strength matter even less. In spite of the fact that it should be the key thing there locked in on for all there worth right now with Revenge as the motive.
    "I Burn!"

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    I think you've got the makings of a pretty good session there!

    Some thoughts on the various elements:

    Service & Tavern: That sounds like it'll work great. Bide your time on the table - at a dramatically appropriate moment, have it break. Wait for the realization from the party that no one will ever fix the table again, and pass out the box of tissues.

    The Daughter:

    As for the daughter, that sounds good - you could have her privately approach the party to ask what happened to her mother since they were there, and then play off how they react (whether they feel guilt, that the BBEG cheated, just give them the opportunity to openly say how they feel and what their characters think).

    I wouldn't try to make her a replacement for Terial - let their attachment to her grow organically like it did with Terial. I would shy away from having her accuse the party or react aggressively to them, at least for this introduction - having an argument with a character as their first impression is likely to leave a sour taste in their mouths, and while you can overcome that later you are setting up a negative impression that you'll have to overcome later if you want them to like and want to have this character around.

    One route you could try to *subtly* steer them towards though is to essentially come full circle - Terial helped them when they needed her, and now they can return the favor by helping Terial's daughter when she needs them (essentially a reversal of roles from needing help to giving help). Bonus points if you can tie the aid back to some sort of problem that Terial helped them with way back in the day (they might also enjoy the opportunity to come in like the wrath of god and smite some hapless goblins or similar weak enemies that gave them a lot of trouble back then that Terial had to help them with). But in order to do something like that, they have to *want* to help Terial's daughter (beyond some bitter, begrudging sense of duty), and that requires that they *like* her.

    The letter:

    Having a written final message from Terial sounds good, although you don't want it to seem too forced. I mean, she found this secret chamber where she learned of a way to break the seal keeping the gods out of this war, spent some amount of time there doing research, and then left a letter there explaining all of this, but then never told anyone about it? You could have the letter get delivered to the current pcs or some of the old pcs who were with her in this old cave (who then share it with the current pcs at the funeral), or found among her personal affects, and she just died before she could talk to the current party about it. That might feel more "real", in that she had plans in motion but death caught up with her first. It should also pique the players' curiosity, and then they can go investigate (if they want), and find this secret chamber - that might make it feel a little more like it was their idea (following a plot hook) rather than just conveniently stumbling onto all this.

    Turning the War:

    If you're ready to escalate the war or start moving towards the end game, then you can certainly have this secret chamber start them on a path to gaining some sort of power or allies that will help them crush the BBEG. If you're not quite ready for that yet, you could instead set up the opportunity for them to have a victory in the war. Shortly after the funeral, word from Command comes in that they've caught wind of an opportunity - in their haste to consolidate their gains, the enemy has left themselves vulnerable in some way. Either some sort of major supply depot is under-defended, or a lieutenant of the BBEG that the players have met before and have developed a hate for, is traveling with a minimal guard detail in favor of speed - something that won't stop the BBEG, but it will give them a major victory. Something that will hopefully raise their morale as players and reassure them that they can win this war. You don't want to make it too easy - players hate handouts and it could backfire into lowering their morale even further if they think you're going easy on them - but discretely pull what punches you need to in order to ensure that it's a decisive victory for them.

    You could have this in addition to the secret chamber if you want to start on the path towards the End Game - you've basically got two problems here actually: grief over the loss of Terial and a loss of confidence/rightful concern that you will kill more NPCs if they fail (the good news is that you can really up the tension when you want because the players have seen that you *can* and *will* pull the trigger of the gun pressed against the heads of their friends, but you also don't want them to think that you're just going to arbitrarily punish them with more deaths). Scoring some sort of major military victory, and/or sticking it to some old enemy of theirs is likely to start restoring the PCs' confidence.


    Alternate thought on how to depict the BBEG's reaction:

    Whenever they confront the BBEG again (even if it's in a non-combat situation, like talking/taunting each other through a communicator), instead of having the BBEG taunt them about Terial's death and their failure to stop him, have him utterly confused about who he killed. He doesn't remember Terial at all at first (essentially the TVTropes "For Me it was Tuesday"), although eventually if the players press him, he makes some offensive off-hand remark "Oh yes, I turned her skull into a lovely candelabra/if she had lived she would have made an excellent slave/whatever". The fact that Terial meant nothing to him might have a greater impact on ratcheting up their hatred than any deliberate mocking.

    Alternatively, this could also be an opportunity to thread in Terial's return if you decide to bring her back by having him be confused at first, and then laugh. Either because he's got her soul stuck somewhere, or because he simply smiles and shakes his head. "Kill her? No, I didn't kill anyone. She's alive and well in my hellish prison!" (You would need to be *really* careful if you go that exact route, but it could work. D&D characters get skewered and horribly mauled all the time, and simply fall over in the negative HP, only to pop back right up after getting some healing. That's the default assumption, anyway - you may have made adjustments to that, and certainly if you described the blow severing her head from her shoulders . . . she probably isn't getting back up from that. But depending on how exactly you depicted her death, you could induce a forehead slapping moment from everyone when they realized that they saw her fall, critically wounded (negative HP) but not actually dead and they just *assumed* the worst. Again, that's something you would really want to think hard about before doing, but if your players are *still* miffed about the whole thing a month from now, and you've already thrown out ways of literally bringing her back from the dead, well . . . you gotta do what you gotta do to keep the game running smoothly. If you can do it just right, you can have the joy of springing a jaw-dropping surprise on your players, avoid invalidating all the drama of her death, and spin out an adventure to go rescue a beloved NPC - the players might even overlook any silliness on this simply because they're happy to have their NPC back and they're not going to look the gift horse in the mouth. Of course, if you try something like this, and it falls flat, well . . . the backlash is likely to make this whole situation look pleasant by comparison, because now you'll be the DM just toying with their emotions, you monster.

    You know your players best though - go with whatever you're confident they will tolerate and enjoy.
    You've pretty much got literary precedent to do just about *anything* from here, so go with whatever you want.
    So long as you have it be due to a logical chain of events that seems at least somewhat reasonable, and the players get to have a say in what happens, or more importantly *feel* like they have a say, it'll work out.
    I didn't actually intend to kill EVERYONE. It just sort of happened.

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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    Can the party not bring her back with their own power?

    Why is it, with PC deaths, everyone's "Eh... anyone got a shiny rock and set of robes?" Yet if it's an NPC that dies, it's 'Oh no, she's gone FOREVER!"

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    Not having access to the corpse can be a pretty big hinderance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin View Post
    Not having access to the corpse can be a pretty big hinderance.
    So they should quest to get her back!

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    I like the idea of the soul-trapped-in-sword plot.

    Another possibility would be have them return as a ghost, Obi-Wan style, to offer advice. It doesn't have to be their own advice; likely the dead get to contact all manner of powerful planar beings and maybe act as messengers. In this case, maybe killing the BBEG is what's needed so she can finally rest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sartharina View Post
    Can the party not bring her back with their own power?

    Why is it, with PC deaths, everyone's "Eh... anyone got a shiny rock and set of robes?" Yet if it's an NPC that dies, it's 'Oh no, she's gone FOREVER!"
    Actually I stated earlier that magic in the world is really messed up due to the Material plane being sealed off from all the others. (things can get out, but not in) so death, at least for right now, is permanent. So even if a PC dies right now, it's time to pull out the D6s and play the character creation mini game again.
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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    Ok so the session is tonight. thank you everyone who helped me, you've given me a lot of ideas for both this session and for the future. I'll post back here to let everyone know how it went tomorrow morning, and where i plan to go from there.

    Thank you Inspectre very much for helping critique my session plan, as well as giving me fantastic ideas for the future.

    And for all of you wondering about the officer that questioned us in the middle of target. Everything turned out ok, in fact I ran into him again at a gas station and he ask me if he could sit in on a session, or even join the game. I have the space and I'm not about to tell a cop no, so he is going to watch how this session unfolds. It should be easy enough to add him in. I just need to be a little bit careful because he won't have the same attachment to the NPC, however it might help boost moral a little, having fresh, upbeat attitude and all. (an attitude for which I plan to crush into a bloody pulp in the dirt... Oh, you're still reading Just kidding everyone)

    Thanks again for everyone's help, have a great weekend.
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    Please let us know how it goes. I'm really wanting to see how everything unfolds and if the group can get through to the next stages of grief.

    Also, thats an odd way to recruit new players to a game, but my guess is its one that shouldn't be repeated.
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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    As a story-teller, I applaud your ability to get your party that invested.

    As a psychologist, your friends sound seriously unbalanced.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    Not really. I imagine George R.R. Martin get's a fair bit of this when people recognize him in public for example. Same with other people who write stories were characters you've gotten really attached too suffer horrible horrible deaths.

    Hell, the writer for the manga series Attack on Titan said that after the manga became the first manga in ages to outsell One Piece that he had to start considering changing the ending because the original plan was to Kill Everyone at the end, meaning it was all pointless, but he's worried about what would happen to his career (both the money coming in now form it and the possibility of getting future work with that many people enraged at him.) and about the general consequences of enraging THAT many people.



    This is just that at a smaller scale.

    That said, that being the case, addendum to my suggestion. Have them get the new masters who guide them on more optimized leveling up during the next few levels, and then sell show them some kind of ancient ritual to break through and back to the other planes. Thus setting up the tearful goodbye and closure and moving them in a direction were they can get powered up enough to be confident that they can actually succeed in getting revenge and taking said revenge.
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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    I deeply apologize for not updating everyone on what was going on.

    Ok, so I, for the most part, followed exactly what I said I was going to do, except for the letter. Instead as the party was about to leave the "New Bee Inn" a scout arrived for Terial yelling "I found it!" the party then had to discern what this person was talking about and, which led to finding research and notes in the back room of the inn.

    The overall feel of the session was actually that of a real funeral, one of the players even stepped up and had a few words to say on the fly. (not going to lie, brought a tear to even my eyes). The players loved the session and were actually thrilled about meeting their past characters as well as some old NPCs they haven't seen in a while. All in all the players greatly enjoyed the session, and I think i boosted their moral just a bit with finding all the research, and giving them a possible goal.

    Thanks everyone who helped.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    1. Was she powerful enough to leave a last message to them that arrives from beyond the grave, steeling their resolve and motivating them to carry on?

    2. Were they her heirs? Did she leave them anything cool?

    This is the same "mistake" made in Batman's origin, when Thomas and Martha Wayne were murdered. Don't apologize for it. Use it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KnotKnormal View Post
    *snip great session*
    Thanks for getting back to us with this! It's great to hear things went well and your players have had a change to cope with to their loss. I like the change of having a scout she dispatched previously return with the key information. Well done!
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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milodiah View Post
    And it sounds to me like the players had set themselves up for their own misery just like we did...they chose to attack the BBEG. There should be consequences for that if he's REALLY that much more powerful than the group.
    Key point. +1.

    You've taught the players a hard lesson. Unfortunately, like most lessons, there's a good deal of ambiguity about how they'll take it.

    Is it "the BBEG can't be beaten, or can only be beaten by following the prescribed railroad (which amounts to the same thing)?" Or "the DM is determined to have the story work out this way"? Because that would be a terrible lesson.

    And the way to avoid it, IMO, is to rub home the above point, even at the cost of causing your players some more grief: it was their rashness that got her killed. Have someone - a friend of Teriel's, her daughter perhaps - openly blame them for it. Next time they need to prepare and plan better, including an escape plan in the event that the dice go against them. (This might be a good time to introduce a supply of items with a once-a-day Word of Recall power, or something similar. Especially if they didn't actively prioritise seeking out an "escape" item previously, because if they had she'd still be alive...)
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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    i suppose there is always the possibility of her stopping by in the future momentarily as a ghost, angel, or even as a Power Minor or Major (temporary or otherwise) at a key point to give some advice. perhaps with a quest to fix what's wrong with the magic and the plane being cut off etc.... if the plane is cut off, perhaps there is a build up of potential that she can tap into to pull off the normally un-pull-off-able. just a random thought.
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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: As a DM I think I messed up bad, and I need help to fix it.

    Can you please tell us how you managed this? It sounds utterly fantastic.
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