Sketching Out Preliminary Setting Ideas

[Amaril]

I've got the seeds of a new setting growing in my head right now--just some scattered concepts, nothing too developed yet--and I was hoping you folks would be able to provide some discussion. I'm always better at creating when I have a sounding board.

Concept and Cosmology

The planes exist in a pyramidal configuration. At each corner of the pyramid's base is the source of one of the Prime Elements--earth, water, air, fire. Each element is strongest at its source, but separate and discordant with the others, creating chaos and strife. Opposite the chaos, at the peak of the pyramid, is Heaven, where all the elements meet and exist in perfect balance, giving rise to unity and harmony. Between these is the material plane, torn between the forces of peaceful order and violent chaos.

Creation Mythology

At the beginning of time, there was an all-mother goddess, El (meaning "first"), who created the world and the beginnings of life on it. To help her with this, she made the Old Ones, immortal beings halfway between angels and fey. They fought a war with the Primals, chaotic elementals who wanted to destroy the world, and defeated them. After this, El gave birth to twin sons, Ash ("second") and Den ("third"). Humanity evolved; El and her sons had never revealed themselves to mortals, and still chose not to. Many humans took to worshiping the Old Ones, and became the first druids.

Eventually, El got bored with this world and wanted to move on to others. She told her sons to each make one thing, and whoever's was better would rule after she left. Ash built a tower as tall as the sky out of solid crystal, the Tower of Glass; it was beautiful, but didn't actually do anything. Den made the alipar tree, which bore delicious, nourishing fruit that the humans loved. El chose Den as the winner, then departed for destinations unknown. Ash was furious at being passed over, and saw himself as the rightful god of the world, being (technically) the older son. Many of the Old Ones supported his cause, and went to war with those who sided with Den. Ash also began revealing himself to humans through visions, turning some of them to his worship and creating the first evil clerics. Den responded in kind, sending visions to five human prophets who became good clerics and began gathering followers. Recorded history begins around this time. After a long conflict, the prophets managed to defeat Ash himself and bind his essence within the Tower of Glass; the island on which it stood was sank beneath the ocean around it, and it remains his prison to this day.

With the war over, the prophets each established their own religious sect, teaching more clerics devoted to following their unique vision. The direct worship of Den grew alongside druidic worship of the Old Ones, now divided according to which had taken what side in the war. Humanity advanced, their study of natural law eventually allowing some to master arcane magic. Today, though their strength continues to grow, they must contend with various dark powers: followers of Ash trying to free him, hostile Old Ones, Primals still seeking to tear down reality, and other, newer forms of evil.

More might be coming soon. What do you think so far?

[Falcos]

Okay, couple questions.

First, sorry if it's too "sciency", but what do the four base elemental planes actually *look* like? Is the Plane of Air an endless sky? What's below it? Is the Plane of Fire just everburning, no fuel? Does the Plane of Water resemble more ocean, or lake?

Second, do people know about El? Also, are the others explicitly "good" and "evil", or do they just grant the traditionally "good" and "evil" powers to their clerics?

Are there Paladins in your world, and under what system do they work?

The Tower of Glass. Its island sank, but it was as tall as the sky, does this mean that it is now cresting the water as a pillar of crystal, reaching to the sky?

Otherwise, great work! Love it so far. :)

[Amaril]

Okay, couple questions.

First, sorry if it's too "sciency", but what do the four base elemental planes actually *look* like? Is the Plane of Air an endless sky? What's below it? Is the Plane of Fire just everburning, no fuel? Does the Plane of Water resemble more ocean, or lake?

I'd pretty much just pictured them like the elemental planes in the standard D&D cosmology. So yeah, Air is just an endless expanse of sky and clouds in all directions, Fire burns forever with no fuel, Water is probably more ocean-like than anything else (and, I just realized, would actually be completely dark at its heart, since there'd be no sun to give light). If they seem impossible to visualize, they're really supposed to be--they're not the kind of planes mortals can travel to or even really understand. In fact, planar travel isn't really a thing in this setting at all.

Second, do people know about El?

I'm sort of uncertain how I want to handle this. My current instinct is to say no, not really. The worshipers of Den (whose real name is blasphemy in most circumstances) consider him and Ash (likewise) to be the first entities in existence, and know nothing of El. The druids, who don't believe in Den or Ash at all, occasionally hear mention in the teachings of the Old Ones of an apparently female creator figure who they hold responsible for their existence, but it's never really talked about in any detail; the Old Ones are mostly unconcerned with the gods these days.

Also, are the others explicitly "good" and "evil", or do they just grant the traditionally "good" and "evil" powers to their clerics?

Ash is most definitely evil. The alignment system in this setting is a little different from the standard fare; as my description of the cosmology might have suggested, it sort of condenses the traditional two axes into one, where Law is mostly synonymous with Good and Chaos with Evil. Ash may not be fundamentally a being of cosmic Evil, but he became a force for evil whether he wanted to or not when he began pursuing strife and conflict with his brother. There are other reasons he's evil, too, but I'll go into them later.

Are there Paladins in your world, and under what system do they work?

Yeah, there are paladins who serve Den and blackguards who serve Ash. I didn't mention them specifically because I sort of consider them to be just a sub-category of clerics, since their powers come from the same source. Now I think about it, paladins have it pretty good in this setting compared to some others--they'll rarely if ever have to feel conflicted between Law and Good, since the two are the same force here.

The Tower of Glass. Its island sank, but it was as tall as the sky, does this mean that it is now cresting the water as a pillar of crystal, reaching to the sky?

It most certainly is--an image I'm particularly proud of

Otherwise, great work! Love it so far. :)

Thank I'm definitely gonna continue developing this. I might even be able to put up some more stuff later today.

[BrokenChord]

Woah. Nice cosmology but I'm at odds on how to feel towards Law and Good combining while Evil and Chaos combine on the other side. Now, I don't think it's unworkable, because the D&D alignments are cosmic forces rather than a true morality compass, so whatever you decide Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, etc. mean in your world, the alignments will shift for it, because you're creating the setting after all, and the cosmos aren't conscious enough to care about what's actually right and wrong, certain actions are just imbued with cosmic energy. But I'm concerned about how exactly people's alignments will be chosen in this world.

Let's use the Order of the Stick as an example. Under a system like this where Law and Good are fused and have equal prevalence, and the reverse is true of Evil and Chaos, characters like Elan or especially Haley would be Neutral... Which is fine by itself, but comes to difficulty when you could fit Tarquin as Neutral just as easily, since his Evilness is matched only by his Lawfulness. Again, this can work, but it's important to clarify this early on: What, then, differentiates Neutral people from each other, alignment-wise, if anything at all? Or are alignments in your game more defined by the cosmos than ruled by them, resulting in Neutrals basically being alignment-less from the perspective of spells and stuff?

All just stuff to consider.

[Falcos]

More questions! What happened to the Primals? They were "defeated" by the Old Ones, but where did they go, and where did they come from now? The elemental planes?

The way you've described it makes it sound like there are intermediary planes between the base, the mid-point (us) and the tip (heaven). Are there? What are they like, or are they largely unknown and irrelevant?

That is indeed an awesome image, a crystal pillar protruding from the sea. Although I have to ask for visualization's sake, is it transparent? Translucent? Opaque? If one of the former two, can we see Ash in it? What would he look like?

On the Paladin point, that's all very well and good, but do the variants exist? Paladins of Slaughter, Freedom and Tyranny?

About binding Law and Good/Chaos and Evil, that really does restrict things. Does that mean that all people who are "evil" are in for destruction, none of them want to rule themselves (A Lawful act)? I'm all for unique morality systems, and it's your setting, but that just seems a touch odd.

El left, but is she coming back? Do her sons know?

What is Den's policy on contacting followers? "Mysterious ways" contact, or direct vision contact?

Does your alignment system mean that all Bards are evil, as Chaotics?

Is the Tower of Glass a solid single shaft (think quartz), or is it sculpted and crafted to look more "tower" than "crystal"?

How do the human followers of the gods view atheist humans? What other, if any, races exist in your setting?

Sorry for the rambling, my brain jumps around like a cat on a hot tin roof.

[Amaril]

-snip-

Alright, great points. Let me try to explain my take on them. Be warned, I'm not sure how coherent it'll end up being, since I still have a lot more thinking to do on this myself.

Saying that Law is synonymous with Good and Chaos with Evil isn't really the best way to think about it, and I should have been more clear earlier. Law and Chaos don't even really exist in this cosmology the same way they do in the conventional one. However, the difference between Good and Evil has a different focus in this world than it does in certain others, one based more on the contrast between peace and conflict, harmony and discord. This difference, as I see it, ties the nature of Good in this setting more closely to the nature of Law in others, and vice versa, but there's still plenty of room for variety within each. To run with the OotS example, people like Haley and Elan would still most certainly be Good; their interest in freedom and individuality would just be a matter of personal priorities. Likewise, Tarquin's selfishness and willingness to incite conflict to get what he wants, even at great cost to others, would place him firmly in the Evil camp. To answer your question about Neutrality, your latter guess is more accurate--people without strong moral alignments just wouldn't register as Evil or Good, rather than pinging as something else entirely.

Is that all clear, and does it make things any better?

More questions!

*Cracks knuckles*

What happened to the Primals? They were "defeated" by the Old Ones, but where did they go, and where did they come from now? The elemental planes?

They come from the elemental planes, yes. Their "defeat" really just meant that El had managed to force them away from the world for the time being, but there were still plenty of them left in their homes. With her departure, they've gradually begun to invade the world in greater numbers again, though humanity doesn't understand why.

The way you've described it makes it sound like there are intermediary planes between the base, the mid-point (us) and the tip (heaven). Are there? What are they like, or are they largely unknown and irrelevant?

There might be, actually--I hadn't really given it any thought yet. I'll come back to that later. If you have any ideas in the meantime, I'd love to hear them

That is indeed an awesome image, a crystal pillar protruding from the sea. Although I have to ask for visualization's sake, is it transparent? Translucent? Opaque? If one of the former two, can we see Ash in it? What would he look like?

Wow, getting detailed now I had a mental image of it looking gem-like, faceted but otherwise cylindrical. It definitely isn't sculpted like an actual tower. Whether it's solid is unknown, since it's too reflective to see through and there's no way inside. Even if one could see inside, I highly doubt they'd be able to see Ash--I generally like gods in my worlds to have forms beyond mortal comprehension, at least in their true states.

On the Paladin point, that's all very well and good, but do the variants exist? Paladins of Slaughter, Freedom and Tyranny?

The powers of a paladin are entirely focused around Good and Evil in this world--since the Law/Chaos axis doesn't exist, those components aren't relevant to them. Standard paladins are probably all I'd allow for players, for the sake of simplicity, but they wouldn't necessarily have to be bound by a traditional code; it would instead be based on the religion they follow.

About binding Law and Good/Chaos and Evil, that really does restrict things. Does that mean that all people who are "evil" are in for destruction, none of them want to rule themselves (A Lawful act)? I'm all for unique morality systems, and it's your setting, but that just seems a touch odd.

I did my best to address this above; hopefully I've made my idea clearer. If not, I can try to explain it more.

El left, but is she coming back? Do her sons know?

I have no idea, myself. Ash and Den haven't even told anyone El ever existed, much less whether or not she's coming back. I hadn't really meant for it to be relevant, honestly.

What is Den's policy on contacting followers? "Mysterious ways" contact, or direct vision contact?

This is a matter of some dispute among the faithful. It's pretty generally accepted (by the clerics and their followers, at least) that the Five Visions of the prophets were direct revelations from God. The official stance of all five sects is that the Visions were a unique occurrence, and have never been repeated. Nonetheless, sometimes you'll get people claiming to have received revelations of their own. Whether or not they really have is anyone's guess. Even the authenticity of the original Visions is disputed by druids and atheists, who mostly don't believe Den even exists and think the prophets must have been either false or deluded.

Does your alignment system mean that all Bards are evil, as Chaotics?

Again, hopefully explained above.

Is the Tower of Glass a solid single shaft (think quartz), or is it sculpted and crafted to look more "tower" than "crystal"?

Ditto.

How do the human followers of the gods view atheist humans?

Haven't really given it much detailed thought yet, but I know it varies. Since the five sects are generally good, they probably don't really persecute nonbelievers, but some might have chilly reactions.

What other, if any, races exist in your setting?

Just humans here. I'm not feeling multiple races this time, and there's less to explain this way.

Sorry for the rambling, my brain jumps around like a cat on a hot tin roof.

Not at all--this is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for Questions like this are the best way to get me to come up with more ideas, and make my existing ones more consistent.

[BrokenChord]

Ah, I see. You seem to have put some thought into it, and it makes sense. I'd flesh it out more for the benefit of your future players, but the cosmology seems like it has a solid frame. Some filler would be nice, but you've got a solid creation myth going. What do the people themselves tend to believe in, in the most major faith groups, regarding other legends than the creation one? Or would you rather hash out societies and living conditions first, so the myths might relate more to the people's own lives?

[Falcos]

MOAR QUESTIONS

I'm of the belief that your cosmology system does imply and would be served well by mid-way planes, but you're the boss. But is travel between planes uncommon, or outright impossible? If the latter, it's not really relevant.

Okay, giant cylindrical slightly faceted reflective tower. Awesome. Sorry if I got too demanding for details, but it was for the sake of visualization.

"Five sects", does that mean that each of Den's original followers went on to create a sect? What are the differences between the sects?

What is the druidic or atheist answer to "There's a giant tower of crystal cresting the ocean waves"?

[SiuiS]

Myself, I am most interested in the stuff that's off the table; what is heaven like? Is it just a better-er Prime? Is that where the good god resides? Where does the evil god reside? What specifics do as have on the Others, the Outsiders? The fey/angel things that I somehow forgot the name of.

The theology would be important. Less facts and more stories!

There's a saying I found roundabouts, that while most cultures tried to historize their myths, turning religious and social mythologies into their history and basing their knowledge of time on it. The Irish and their ilk, though, did the reverse, mythologizing their history and adding a dramatic flair. Because the feelings and the power in those tales were more powerful than any fact or string of knowledge. And that's what is missing here.

I'm a cleric, or a Druid. Why? What do I feel?
I'm a regular Joe. I believe these things. Why? What do I feel?

[Amaril]

Yeah, more detail is gonna be needed. Remember, I'm still in early stages of this, and what I have so far is just a basic framework. I do have some more of the theology in mind already, though, so I'll go ahead and talk about that; hopefully it'll stimulate more ideas.

The foundation of modern clerical religion is the Book of the Five Visions, a collection of the records written by each of the prophets describing their revelation from God. After the defeat of Ash centuries ago, the prophets and their followers went their separate ways, each group devoting itself to contemplating the aspect of God revealed through the Vision of their leader; though they all follow the same God, and each holds respect for the others in high esteem, the sects vary widely in their theology and practices. I'll go through the sects one at a time, since I'm not feeling up to writing everything I have up at once (and I feel like that might be kind of a slog to get through anyway). Druidism is less detailed so far, since there are a lot more variations depending on region and which Old Ones people worship, but I'll come up with more stuff for that soon.

Dianism
Dianists are followers of the Vision of Stars, handed down by the prophet Diana. Dianist scripture holds that Diana was the first of the prophets to receive her Vision; most accounts hold her mainly responsible for bringing the five together in the first place. According to her records, the Vision of Stars showed Diana methods of divining the future through the movements of celestial bodies, and her teachings form the foundation of most modern practice of astrology. Supposedly, Diana was able to use the knowledge she gained from her Vision to anticipate the growth of the conflict between Den and Ash, and knew that she and the other prophets would ultimately be the ones to lead humanity to victory. Today, Dianists remain at the forefront of astrology, and their observatory-temples are popular destinations for those looking for information about what the future will bring.
Dianism's theology is deeply concerned with destiny; it holds that every event in the world is predetermined, and all mortals have a fate that they cannot escape. With this in mind, Dianists seek to understand and anticipate the future so that they may be better prepared to play their assigned role. Some find this outlook pessimistic and defeatist, but believers are more inclined to take comfort in the thought that everything that happens to them is part of God's great plan, and things are certain to ultimately work out for the best.
Dianist clerics can choose from the domains of Knowledge, Luck, Sun, and Time, as well as Good, like all Good-aligned clerics.

In future posts I'll talk about the other Visions--Iron, Dreams, Temples, and Flowers.

[jqavins]

Far be it from me to meddle. No, I lie, I love to meddle. So how about this neat little idea?

There are not four elements but three. The three elemental planes and Heaven form a perfect tetrahedron, so each of these four planes is equidistant from all the others. And the Material plane is at the exact center, equidistant from all four of them. (With a square base for four elements, the diagonally opposed elements are further apart than the ones that share an edge. The peak can be placed such that the edges leading up to it are the same length as the edges of the base, but in that configuration the point equidistant from the five planes would be in the center of the base, not elevated at all.)

But then ther's the 5-cell. This is a four dimensional analog of the tetrahedron with 5 vertecies, thus 5 points perfectly equidistand in 4-dimensional space. The elements and Heaven could take these positions with the material plane at the center, if you'd like a truely incomprehensible cosmos.

[Balyano]

There are not four elements but three. The three elemental planes and Heaven form a perfect tetrahedron, so each of these four planes is equidistant from all the others. And the Material plane is at the exact center, equidistant from all four of them.

That could be cool, gave me some ideas, reminded me of some ideas I've had before, but changed up a bit.

Spoiler: What my mind ran away with.

Show

Three elements.... so the elements of Land, Sea, and Sky.
Would Heaven then be a fiery realm, making fire sacred?
Making cremations standard?
Sacrifices are burned?
What would the elementals look like?
Sky elementals that look like enormous birds with suns and moons for eyes, flies during the day with only the sun eye open and their feathers sky blue with fluffy white markings. Flies at night with the moon eye open, black feathers with white stars.
Land elementals like titanic stag elk with tree branches for antlers. Tortoises made of stone and thorns.
Sea elementals that resemble snakes but are essentially living ocean currents or sentient rivers. And would an island turtle be a sea elemental, an land elemental, or both.

Edit: Oops, mistook jqavins post for being from amaril.

[jqavins]

This has got me going for my own world creation. Five elements, the four classical plus life (Vite) positioned in the 5-cell arrangement mentioned above with the material plane at the center. But, since each of the six planes (five elements plus material) is itself an infinite 3 dimensional realm positioned in this 4 dimensional arrangement, the entire cosmos together has to be (at least) 7 dimensional. Arcane magic is a matter of manipulating energy and matter across the 7 dimensions; no wonder it's hard.

Thanks for getting me started.